classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: bikerbob on February 06, 2011, 07:32:07 PM
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Hi there
Have been doing some research on this topic and I am now quite worried to the extent that I went to see my local MP about it who was very sympathetic and promised to write to the Minister of Transport about it.
So what am I worried about, well I have 2 bikes both with petsealed tanks which as you may already know will be dissolved by Ethanol it also dissolves some fibreglass tanks. I have found that some people have already had disastrous problems such as carb throttle valve seizing inlet valves seizing to the extent that the push rods bent needing a complete strip down of the cylinder head and a lot of work to rectify. Now you might think that okay I don't have a sealed tank or a fibre glass tank so I will be okay. Wrong there is alist materials that are not recommened for use with EthanolI will give you some. Zinc, Brass, Copper, Aluminium, Lead/Tin Viton, Neoprene, Nylon 66, Cork. Now while the effects on some tank sealants and some fibreglass tanks is immediate the possible longer term effects on these other materials I cannot find an answer to. Bear in mind that our carbs have Zinc bodies brass jets copper floats that are soldered and cork seals in the petrol taps. I have asked my MP to try to get it made compulsory for all fuel stations label all pumps with the level of Ethanol, to delay any further implementation of Ethanol until more research is done into the negative effects and a major publicity campaign to make the public aware of the dangers to some vehicles. It does not bear thinking about if you are riding your bike and your carb throttle valve sticks because of Ethanol dissolving the sealant in your tank. GO to www.fbhvc.co.uk and in the information panel click on Bio-fuels and read the article.
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The odd thing is that ethanol (ethyl alcohol) is one of the most inactive substances known to man.
( unless you drink it to excess !!, because it is the active ingedient in beer wine spirits etc ).
So why is it so different when its bio-ethanol ??
P.S. The last time my throttle stuck open, just pulled in the clutch.
While not all riders may be this alert, this is always a cure for this malady.
May not be kind to your engine though....
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Hi there
Take your point about pulling in the clutch it would free up the engine and depending what speed you were doing prior to the throttle valve sticking there is a good chance that the engine would simply blow or seize. Also in such an emergency would you have time bearing in mind, once again depending on speed, by the time you check that the throttle has stuck and the brain has time to react to that fact, it could be too late you may already be DEAD. I have only ever once had a stuck throttle and that was when starting up and I can asure you that by the time you frantically try to close it and then realise it is stuck and then hit the kill switch a couple seconds has passed now how far would I have travelled at say a moderate 50MPH definately far enough to hit something stationary in front of me. I would like to think that I would be alert enough to pull in the clutch but I certainly do not want to be in a position to find out.
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When my throttle cable unravelled inside, and the car in front was looming fast, I can assure you that pulling in the clutch was an instant reaction. As was applying BRAKES !!!
Sorting out the engine was a distant last priority. But unless you were riding beserko, full throttle is unlikely to be in the equation ?. Although not something that I'd wish to test, I would agree.
It still doesn't explain why bio ethanol is getting all this bad press, when ethanol is so stable a product What does the bio do to it .... ?
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Hi there
Ethanol is I believe pure alcohol and as such it has a detrimental effect on some materials it acts as a solvent on some and has a corrosive effect on others. It is also hygroscopic that means it absorbs moisture now everyone knows petrol and water do not mix granted if you use your vehicle on a regular basis this will not be a problem, but you are advised not to store petrol with Ethanol in for any length of time how long I cannot find out. If Ethanol is as stable as you think then why is it banned in aviation fuel for light aircraft on safety grounds. I would like more research to be done both into it,s negative effects and it,s supposed green credentials given if it is true what I have found out on the web. Brazil is the worlds biggest producer of Ethanol they extract it from sweet corn and sugar cane they have huge areas of land devoted to growing these crops we are having enough problems feeding the growing world population as it is do we really want devote an ever increasing amount of land to Bio- Fuel production, where is this land going to come from. I read one article that said outside of SAO PAULO in Brazil there are oceans of land devoted to growing sugar cane, now before you harvest sugar cane you have to set fire to it first the resultant smoke is now causing pollution problems for that city. Another article said that to produce one gallon of Ethanol you would need three gallons of water. I have no way of knowing if these articles are true nor do I know if they not as I just found them by typing into google negative effects of Ethanol. Finally I do not want to appear to be alarmist but seized throttle valves at least one damaged motorcycle engine and leaking fuel tanks have already happened all proved to be Ethanol related, I do not want to see on the television or read in the papers about some person who has been seriously injured or worse because of them not knowing about the damaging effects of the addition of Ethanol in fuel.
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This is where the story gets a bit murky - petrol is allowed, by law, to be up to 5% water. (is it ??) This is before ethanol appeared on the scene.
This fact emerged when some petrol stations started pumping neat water into folks fuel tanks - with predictable results.
It seems the underground tanks contain some water, which is hard to exclude, and the petrol simply floats on top, and is pumped off the top and sold to customers. As long as the underground tanks don't fill with water, all is well....
Petrols used to contain something that grabbed any stray water in your fuel tank, and bound it up chemically within the fuel - hence the 5% bit.
So does ethanol not blend with petrol, or separate out in some fashion that is the problem ?
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HI there
It is not the water content that is causing the problems with Ethanol initially that maybe a side issue to do with storage I have found out that you cannot add Ethanol at the refining stage and then pump it through piplines it has to be added just before delivery to filling stations as i say this information I got from the web so I really cannot say if it is true. But what is true is the damaging effects of Ethanol when it dissolves some tank sealants and causes the resultant goo to be drawn into the carb and also fibreglass resins.
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Hi Biker Bob ,interesting subject . I cant realy comment as regards M/C's as my 27 Raleigh does not get that much road use . However I use Bio Diesel in my BT 50 Mazda . I have used it eversince new and have had no problems at all even though Mazda say that any warrenty claims will not be met if this fuel is used .
I had a Nissan diesel some years back initialy I used standard diesel then changed to Bio . That change cleaned all the gunk from the fuel lines ,filled the fuel filter witha queer jelly like gunk . THis happenend only the once from then on the fuel filter was clean.
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If you have a Petsealed petrol-tank all you have to do is remove the coating and replace it with an ethanol-compatible product. The stuff you need to remove Petseal is methyl chloride based, like Nitromors paint-stripper. You'd better get it quick, though: our beloved masters in Brussels are expected to ban methyl chloride products soon - evidently too dangerous for us oiks to mess with.
The joke is that biofuels, when the impact of their production is taken into account, are reckoned to cause more emissions than the fossil-fuels they are supposed to replace. The source? Friends of the Earth, not normally an organisation we find on our side of an argument!
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Hi there
Just an update I have today recieved a letter from my MP in which he says he has forwarded my letter of concern to the minister the Rt.Hon Philip Hammond MP and will contact me again when he recieves a reply. So hopefully something will get done. I did visit my MP and gave him my letter, he was very sympathetic having in his youth owned 2 BSA,s aC11g and a C15 and having an engineering background he understood the carb and engine problems.
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bikerbob.... good luck with your MP , has he mentioned any costs inccured yet ? as in my limited exp they are a bunch of rip off ************ only out for self enrichment
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Indeed. Bikerbob, don't hold your breath waiting for a reply. Being cynical, I expect your letter went no further than the MP's circular under-desk filing cabinet......
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I don,t blame anyone for being cynical when dealing with politicians my MP has sent me a copy of the letter that he has sent to the minister so we will wait and see I have done this before although not on a bike related issue and I did get a reply.
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they are duty bound to reply
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Hi there just an update. I
I have recieved a reply form my MP he has forwarded my letter to the transport minister and will be in touch when he gets a reply.
Also in the March copy of the BSA magazine there is an update which does not make good reading. A report commissioned from QinetiQ ( a provider of technical advice to customers such as Government orginisations) by the Ministry of Transport was published in January. Briefly it found that the majority of vehicles 10years or older will not be compatible with E10 due to fuel system material incompatibilty issues. ( fuel containing 10% ethanol).
Carburettor vehicles and powered two wheelers will suffer problems due to material incompatibilty,corrosion and drivability issues also it goes on to say that fibre glass tanks may suffer failure due to incompatibility of the glass fibre resin with Ethanol petrol blends.
It recommends that vehicles 10 years or older, carburettored vehicles and first generation direct spark ignition vehicles should not be fuelled on E10 (10% ethanol) unless manufactures state otherwise. The present 5% ethanol content should not phased out in 2013 it's widespread availibility should continue for the foreseeable future and consideration should be given E0 (no ethanol) fuel for historic and vintage vehicles.
Partly as a result of this report, the FBHVC have concluded from a lengthy legislation document, that fuel with 5% ethanol will be around until 2015, with the suggestion of low ethanol fuel for historic vehicles. Before the report was published the Department of Transport 's position was that the phasing out of E5% fuel after 2013 to be replaced by E10% was a firm one.
So it does not look very good for the future already there are problems with the 5% never mind increasing it to 10%.
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On the following page or pages to the above, Draganfly advertise a sealant that is not affected by ethanol.
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Hi there
Have just received a reply from my local MP about Ethanol he sent a letter that I wrote to the Minister for Transport I have attached my original letter also the reply from M.O.T. you will see that they have not addressed my main concerns regarding safety the compulsory displaying of labels on pumps to show levels of Ethanol and also a major publicity campaign.
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Bob,
I will look into this time permitting because the effects of ethanol affects old cars, boats, stationary engines and of course older cars and motorcycles, the fact is that the situation we are now in Politicians and bureaucrats in Brussels set targets, irrespective of the outcome on many peoples lives & interests, hobbies e.t.c.
Beside ethanol being a solvent and of course poisonous to the human body when concentrated, it also has a less octane, energy rating, through having a lower calorific value, which in effect will if not corrected by an additive decrease the performance of your machine and also give less economy in MPG.
Do you remember LRP in 1988 where has that all gone now! Also when unleaded came in use in 1988, on many vehicles they retarded the timing to make then compliant, to using unleaded, again performance wise & economy was compromised.
Old piston engined aeroplanes have the same problem with not being able to source adequate fuel suppliers to allow them to still be in service & allow them to fly unhindered.
Look we are a minority Petrol Heads, plus the interested parties, Car owners, Boat people, do not seem to be able to get it together and object to what's happening with one voice! National Governments, seemingly have little enthusiasm for petrol powered vehicles & the Autocrats in Brussels even less so. Soon if fuel prices rise, I will like 1000's of others be forced off the road as we approach £1:35 @ litre unleaded X it by 4.55 and you have the price of fuel @ 614.25 pence a gallon, this is unsustainable and will wreck havoc with the economy and the personal lives of millions. The best brains in Britain came up with higher taxation on fuel and an increase in VAT, to get us back in economic recovery, I ask you!
The BMF ACU and other motoring organisations should be protecting our and their interests, but it doesn't seem to be happening, perhaps motorcyclists should set up a national garage chain with the fuels that we need and support it & challenge & ignore conventional wisdom.
Its a Free County isn't it!
Cheers
JBW
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Hi there
I have again contacted my MP and informed him that I am not satisfied with the reply given by the minister he did not answer my main concerns all he said was to quote the regulations and say do not repair old petrol tanks buy a new one he probably thinks you can just nip down to the local bike shop and buy one he also probably has no idea how the the classic bike market works. My MP has replied saying he has written a letter to the minister asking for detailed replies to my concerns I await his response.
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Hi there.
Some further info on Ethanol I have read most of the research carried out by Qintiq who were commisioned by the government to look into the effects of Ethanol on vehicles and I cannot get over how complacent the government's attitude to this is when you consider that it states in the report that when in 2013 we will be on 10% Ethanol there will be something like 8.5 million vehicles on the road over 10 years old that could be affected adversely by Ethanol also some early fuel injection systems as late as 2005 could also be affected, it also states that the classic vehicle industry employs some 27,000 people in the UK and is worth about 3billion pouds.
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Bob,
Send your findings to MCN, I know its the Motorcycling equivalent to a Red Top Daily but let's see if they have the balls to launch a campaign!
Cheers
John
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Hi all,
I am not sure whether the impact on the mechanical components inside our old ladies is really that severe. In Brasil, they run E100 and the enfines aint made of wood or leather, but alloy, iron cast etc.
German ADAC has published a nice article about E10 and all the fuss around it. There an expert said that concerning oxidation E5 was worse than E10. Why? He explained that there is an anomaly with alcohol dissolved in gasoline - it becomes less hygroscopic with increasing ethanol content.
Although he still says that alcohol may be affecting alloy.
To judge this article one must know that ADAC is strongly opposing this E10 measure and recommending not to use it if any doubt.
Sealing material resistance is a matter of quality. I had the experience with my '74 BMW R75/5 with E5 when I had overhauled the carbs. I had replaced all sealings and o-rings with new ones purchased from a BMW dealer. That very summer the bike broke almost down due to non-existing idle / low load engine speed. In the end it had turned out that the new o-ring for the idle jet of the Bing carb had started to dissolve. I contacted the dealer, he sent me another quality o-ring and since then I have never had any more issues with that.
Futhermore in pre WWII there was a measure introduced by the German government that fuel must contain some amount of ethanol:
In August 1930, the German government required all gasoline importers to buy 2.5% of the volume of their imports from the German Alcohol Monopoly, and the ratio was increased to 6% and then 10% by 1932. Estimates of alcohol used in 1932 vary from 44 million liters to about 175 million liters. Some 36,000 small farm alcohol stills, owned by the monopoly, were in operation at this time. By 1938, Germany was producing about 267 million liters of ethanol, about two thirds from potatoes and the rest from grain, wood sulfite liquors and beets. Some 89 million liters of methanol were produced from coal, while other synthetic fuels included 550 million liters of benzene and over one billion liters of synthetic gasoline. All told, 54% of the pre-war German fuel production was derived from non-petroleum sources, of which 8% was ethanol from renewable sources
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_alcohol_fuel
So maybe there is an anomaly with the age of your bike and its susceptibility to be impacted by E10 - the older it is the less risk there is. That's technical progress for you ;)
As usual - lots of pros and cons. Ask 3 experts and you get 4 different answers.
To my mind this whole discussion is obsolete - the reason for me not to opt for E10 is that I am not the one to explain to a starving child in Africa that we don't manage to send them food because we now start to burn it in our combustion engines.
This is crap and we should send these bloody incompetent EU-politicians down there exactly doing that! See how they will vote next time in parliament then. >:(
Cheers,
horaceworblehat
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Hi there
Have just recieved another reply from the minister via my MP he does clarify some points and I notice that he does now say that it is not the governments "firm intention" to go to 10% Ethanol from 2013 which in their original report they said it was a firm intention. But to me it means that they have just not made up their minds yet. I still believe that their should be more publicity about this.
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Hi. I have read this thread with great interest. I have a 1965 Triumph 3TA and I have been experiencing the problems that have been described in the replies to the original post, ie: fuel taking the paint off of the tank, problems with the slide, float sticking, jets blocked, sticky valves, etc. Upon stripping the carb I found everything was covered with a sticky substance. After further investigating I found that, at sometime in its life, the inside of the tank has been coated with some sort of sealer. This has started to deteriorate and lumps peeling off. Until I read this , I almost bought a new carb ( £160, ouch, that's more than my weeks pension ). Now I realise that the problems could well be caused by Ethanol in the fuel. Short of cutting the bottom out of the tank to get rid of all this muck, can anyone suggest an easier way? Bearing in mind that I have just had the tank re-sprayed ( an arm and a leg, lol.)
I don't really mind stripping the engine and carb to get rid of this sticky stuff but mucking about cutting holes in the tank is a bit much for me.
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this page may be of interest with this subject.
http://www.burtonbikebits.net/ethanol-in-fuels.htm
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Hi there
To mickjr I have just done two tanks on Bsa's with old sealant in them, you can get a complete Kit from www.tankcareproducts.co.uk which will provide you with everything that you will need to do the job remove the old sealant and reseal with Ethanol proof sealant.
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To BikerBob.
Hi. Thanks for the info. Have looked on their site and it would appear that their product would solve my problem.
Just out of curiosity, which pack did you use? Have looked at " Kit 1" and "Kit 2" ( bit pricey but cheaper than a new tank, lol.)
Me being way past the " sell by date", is it a comparatively easy job to do?
Regards.
Mick
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Hi, Sent out a few concerns to historic vehicle organisations, I am concerned about the lack of effective organised opposition to moves to alter radically the way we live in a non-democratic way, what we have in our country is no longer traffic management but traffic control. I was I never asked about in a democratic way, about non-targeted use of speed cameras, nor as a fee paying motorist/rider, did I have a say in the speed bumps, chicanes, the constant lowering of road speeds to new "Safe" speed limits, and the fact that I also now pay, twice as much road-tax as a new plastic-bubble car for a 740cc motorcycle?
Globally, it is an very important point on bio-fuels being grown on land that should be producing food, as important as constantly building homes on grade 1 & 2 Farmland in the UK, I unknowingly do not want anybody to starve anywhere on my account, but as long as Politicians and Agencies pursue Outcome driven policies this kind of crap will happen, incidentally it has been identified that in the UK 750,000 children do not get enough to eat daily.
The French may have there idiosyncrasies, but they no how to organise and protest when their well-being and personal rights are being challenged. Ethanol is for some a life & death issue as a previous contributor has pointed out, for me at the moment its just another thing being imposed and controlled by those that effectively consider "they know better" and a hobby and interest for many, that may be "dead in the water" through imposed fuel policies.
Of note, I do not consider CO2 as a pollutant either, but consider polluting and over-fishing the seas, cutting down the forests indiscriminately to be the initial criminal acts. Plant more trees globally and we would all see, better living conditions and a corrective naturally assisted process taking place.
And please consider too, that some Hedge fund managers & their corporations are controlling global food prices and one such firm controls 50% of the Global copper reserves & 60% of the Global zinc reserves, power isn't often where many of the papers would have you believe it is.
Cheers
John
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To MickJR
I used the Kit1 for a Bsa A10 tank which is 4gallons from start to finish that is when you can put fuel back in the tank took about 8days. You must follow the instructions carefully the only things that I found slightly different were after using the tank sealant remover I left the petrolcap on for 24 hours then removed and left for a further 2days until the inside dried out completely the original sealant had been removed and was broken down into small flakes which took some getting out I put some old nuts and bolts in the tank and shook up to remove the few flakes that were sticking to the sides of the tank. After which I followed the instructions until I came to use the new sealant I found it flows much better if you pre-heat the tank I used a hot air gun also after swilling the sealant around inside the tank I reheated the tank with the hot air gun and again swilled the sealant around a few times to get an even coating. I might add that you have to leave the tank for about a week before you again put fuel in this is to allow the sealant to cure. I have had no problems with the newly sealed tnk.
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To BikerBob.
Many thanks for taking the time out to reply, much appreciated.
I'll order the kit1 and have a go, if things go pear shaped it will not be any worse than it is now, lol.
Just a final question if I may. As I have only just had the tank resprayed, will this stuff have any adverse effects on the new paintwork should I be hamfisted enough to get some on it ? It was done with "Twin pack or 2 pack" whatever it was called.
Once again, many thanks for your feedback. I feel a lot happier now that I know I might not have to fork our for a new tank.
Mick.
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Hi there
One of my tanks had just been resprayed the other had been done about 15 years ago but in both cases I took particular care to cover up around the filler hole and made sure that when pouring in the sealant remover and the new sealant I did not spill any onto the paintwork as I do believe they warn you that it can damage paintwork.
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BikerBob.
Once again, Many thanks. Your comments/advice have eased a lot of my concerns. It would appear that at 78 the confidence in my abilities has waned a bit. It's taken me a couple of years to prepare this machine ready for the road and this hiccup is a bit of a setback.
Mick.
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Hi Bob,
Have read through this thread concerning the probable long term effect of ethanol on older bikes and cars. I have some concerns too. Here in Canada we have been on an ethanol diet of up to 10% for as long as I can remember for most gasolines, Sunoco for example. I would guess for 20 years, around since 1990. So far I have seen no negative effects from it's use. In the winter months it acts as a fuel line/gasoline anti-freeze and moves water through the fuel system that may otherwise freeze. In Canada Shell "V-Power" has no ethanol. I wrote to a Shell Tech Dept. when a friend in England asked me if Shell contained ethanol. He too was told exactly what I have copied and pasted below from the reply I received from Shell a couple of months ago.
Shell is converting its gasoline stations to ethanol blended gasoline sites.
Already converted sites have signs on pumps showing the following:
- Bronze (regular grade - 87 octane) may contain up to 10% ethanol;
- Silver (midgrade - 89 octane) may contain up to 5% ethanol;
- V-Power (premium grade - 91 octane) contains no ethanol.
Thank you for choosing Shell.
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Bob,
Read something of interest yesterday as I was preparing my lawnmower for it's first cut of the season and I thought of your thread. The motor is made by an old company 'over here' called Briggs & Stratton out of Milwaukee Wisconsin USA, deeply imbedded into Harley territory. In the users hand book it says under 'winter storage' to fill the fuel tank to full unless the fuel contains ethanol, if so then drain the tank and run the carb dry.
John
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Bob,
More on ethanol. Last year I purchased a Chev HHR with a 2.2 liter 4 cylinder Ecotec engine w/ 5 speed manual Getrag transmission. The vehicle is "E85 compatable". That is it will run on E85 and make an instant change to the powertrain control module as soon as it senses the E85 in the fuel system. What a laugh it is having all this E85 compatable equipment on board and there are no E85 stations anywhere that I've ever seen. I believe there are 2 in Ontario. Perhaps in the future there are more coming. I guess I would be ok in Brazil.
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Hi there
Just recieved my Monthly mag from the Bsa owners club. It reports from someone in Germany that the majority of motorists over there are refusing to use 10% Ethanol petrol because it returns poor fuel economy and recommending people to buy Super Plus fuel or E5 but to try and avoid E10. The German government has halted the countrywide installation of E10 pumps until they can provide evidence that it is good for E10. Greenpeace have stated that ethanol can ruin cars and the enviroment.
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If you are really worried and ride short distances, you can alway do what this American Vincent owner does [extract form voc@jtan.com below]
"I make my own ethanol free gas
for use in small engines (chain saws etc which are particularly
effected by ethanol) and forstorage gas for larger ones. Just dump
about 20% water into the gas, agitate, let it sit a few days, then
drain out the water and ethanol mix (the ethanol combines with the
water in preference to the gas) which will have separated out and
gone to the bottom of the tank."