classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: Tun up on May 05, 2012, 10:52:11 AM
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In view of comments made about the use of stainless steel fastners on motorcycles; I thought it might be interesting to establish the majority and minority view point.
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I use stainless. I like stainless. I make my own nuts, bolts and screws from bar stock. Polished stainless is much more yellow than chrome, not quite the colour of nickel plate, but a squillion times more durable and close enough that most people don't know. And maintenance free. So long as you get the period form of hex size and hex depth, I think they're fine.
People tend to forget that the great bulk of the machines that we obsess over were built for a fat pom in a flat cap to ride six miles to t'mill and back. What was used was what was cheap and convenient, which meant that consistency of appearance was never even vaguely considered. That which could be assembled and paint dipped was black painted. That which wasn't could have been anything.
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the great bulk of the machines that we obsess over were built for a fat pom in a flat cap to ride six miles to t'mill and back.
such a comment should be treated with the contempt it deserves, unless of course you count the number of these fat poms machines that transported them, and their colonial discards all over the globe?
now do tell about the great australian motorcycle industry and its glory?
and your poll is inadequate,surely it should specify Vintage bikes as that was the subject of the original question?
PS no self respecting mill worker would buy a bike to cover six miles to work they'd walk it.
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iee and start at four int mornin an live in shoe box int middle ot road .
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four, FOUR, you wer' lucky!!
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No rosko you are quite wrong. I worded it that way deliberately as can be seen by my use of the noun "Majority". You see people that own modern and classic bikes have views as well ::). However you are entitled to your opinion and I observe you are not shy of expressing it. ;)
Keep :) coz it takes more muscles to frown
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Sheer luxury! My Spagthorpe Whippet worked down t'saltmine for two hundred years and never even ran out of petrol.
As for the dopey Aussie's comments......stainless....in Oz...on a "vintage" bike? FFS... ::)
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well, on my "modern bike" 1961, I will use whatever is at hand no preference.
On my vintage bikes I use as period as possible either nickel or black,can I vote for both?
there is no point in having an opinion if you keep it to yourself is there? ??? ::)
personally I ignore anyone who rides a bike with an electric starter, nancyboys :-*
electric lights yes, thats it.
some of us fat poms had to start dads bike wi' oor tongues
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keep on ridin rosko, keep on ridin :)
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can't start me bike........................... :-[
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To get back to the original question, I've been making stainless steel parts for years and years and think its by far the easiest and cheapest way to go. They are fit and forget which I'm very partial to. I tend to keep my bikes for a long time and found that plating was expensive and only looks good for five years or so then starts to go off.
Many of the original finishes are no longer available where I live. The environmental authority doesn't like cadmium and the old phosphatizing processes like Coslettising, Parkerizing and Bonderizing aren't viewed with any enthusiasm either. The alternatives are zinc plating, black zinc plating or the modern black oxide finish. Only bright nickel plating is available commercially and looks nothing like the original vintage nickel.
Zinc plating is cheap and can give a vaguely reasonable alternative to Cadmium. A friend in the plating business was very disparaging about modern black oxide finishes and recommended black zinc plating as a better alternative. I've followed his advice where various parts were originally phosphatised and so far so good. Its acceptable.
So, parts on my bikes are either stainless steel, painted, standard zinc or black zinc. I'm happy.
Cheers,
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I have no great opinion. Except, as has been said, stainless is "fit and forget" which is why my wheels and spokes (I know they are not fasteners) are stainless because of the salt on our roads in Winter.
I know that stainless steel has a lower tensile strength than modern steel bolts etc. too. But high tensile steel bolts were not available (or much used) when most of our bikes were built
I keep my bikes for the fun of riding them and don't care if they are not as originally manufactured - I have no time for the "concourse" mentality, because ANY vehicle more than a few years old will have collected non-concourse parts to keep it running.
I regard myself as a custodian of an ageing vehicle which I hope someone will respect and care and maintain in the way he/she pleases when I am gone ::)
I am much more concerned about fasteners being the correct size (e.g. Imperial and Metric sizes are different however close they are), than about whether a fastener shines or rusts on the surface.
Jim.
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I think that some people assume that because bolts are stainless they are perfect, but stainless steel comes in different grades just like any other steel. what concerns me is that the companys selling to classic bike enthusiasts don't seem very keen to disclose the steel grade. If you are just holding a mudguard bracket then ok, but for more highly stressed engine parts might present problems.
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Stereotypes!
Who you calling FAT!
Look @old films people were fitter & less fat in the old days, unless you had a good wage you couldn't afford a motorcycle!
I am a Lancastrian so I should know about mills & shitty weather, mind you, they were a lot fatter in Yorkshire! People lived "ontop" ot mill in the old days. no transport needed!
You can check with a good manufacturer the tensile strengths you need, use SS for fixings, but the right strength EN steels or whatever they call them now, h it matters. Corrosion is an enemy not a friend.
Cheers
JBW
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There,s one thing about stainless steel it always causes a debate.
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Oh no it doesn't! ;) ;D ::)
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Nice one
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I'm never quite sure why people think makers of stainless steel fittings should disclose what grade they use. Its always seemed to me that if you worry about this sort of thing, then don't buy it. Its not as if anyone is being forced in to the purchase. Nor do I see many makers of non stainless steel parts telling people what grade of steel they use.
And could most of us understand it if they did.
As for the other concern, "what about highly stressed engine parts" what actual parts do you mean? If its inside the engine where there is oil flying around why would you use stainless anyway?
Sorry to grump like this but I've been hearing the same cry since the 70's and no one has ever shown any real problems arising yet.
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Oi JBW... don't be slagging off us Yorkies.... I'm suprised you got through passport control back then!
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[ author=33d6 link=topic=4213.msg15385#msg15385 date=1336363686]
I'm never quite sure why people think makers of stainless steel fittings should disclose what grade they use.
If I was considering buying a wheel spindle and fittings in stainless,I'd like to know if the maker/seller had some appreciation of the stresses and strains involved and chose a grade of steel accordingly.
I recently made some girder fork spindles (not stainless) and was advised by a girder fork renovator/repairer that EN16 was the grade to use as the right combination of strength and machineability. I could have wandered off to the local B&Q and just bought some EN1 but that didn't seem such a clever idea regarding the long-term survival of me and machine, so I didn't... ;)
Of course it matters what grade of stainless is used, and if it matters, why the big secret?
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The VW enthusiasts have looked at this. http://www.volksbolts.com/faq/basics.htm. And they say "grade A2 stainless should not be used in heavily loaded mechanical or structural areas" so I am not the only one expecting to know what grade of steel I am buying.
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Sorry Bomber, but its that damn fine Yorkshire pud you lot eat all the time, I had to contend with tripe & greasy lamb hotpot, just look @ road-tests, bikes were always 8mph faster in Lancashire than Yorkshire, even two up you could creep past a single Yorkie on a bike, course it could have been they he or she, it was always difficult to tell the gender in the Ridings, was too tight to open the throttle wide!
Just joking really......!
Cheers
JBW
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I think A2 and A4 grade fastners in s/s are ok for attaching brackets etc. Wheel spindles etc I think are typicaly .303 grade s/s.
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[quote link=topic=4213.msg15393#msg15393 date=1336421087]
are typicaly .303 grade s/s.
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.303 grade s/s ??
Is that like a ballistic grade of stainless ??
This is a joke, right......
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Hello R
No it's not a joke; Iv'e never claimed to be knowlegeable; I was trying to be helpfull.
Your point is what exactly?
Bellow is just one example of a manufacturer who uses that grade of s/s. If you google other suppliers they say pretty much the same.
Hi Mike,
It never ceases to amaze me how many myths, misconceptions & lies
surround the use of stainless steel, not to mention the down right b*** s***
and prejudice! According to which "expert" you listen to it's "brittle",
"not strong enough", "reacts with aluminium and causes it to corrode", etc.
All which are total and utter rubbish!
Obviously, as with any other material, there are various grades
which have different properties & the correct grade needs to be chosen for
any particular application. We use grade 303.
In simplistic terms, stainless steel is only "ordinary" steel with chromium
& nickel added to give it corrosion resistance. As with all other grades of
steel the "mechanical" properties, (strength, hardness, etc) can be varied
by the amount of other elements alloyed into it and also by other,
subsequent, processes such as heat treatment.
On a motorcycle, the most critical components of the cycle parts
would be the wheel spindles. Obviously, the originals would be made from a
fairly high grade material. Generally speaking, all manufacturers have made
their wheel spindles from material having a tensile strength of around 38
tons/sq inch.
Grade 303 stainless steel has a tensile strength of around 42-44
tons/sq inch. Obviously, superior to the originals, with the added bonus
that it won't rust & will never have to be re-plated in future years.
An alternative grade that is occasionally used is 316. This has a
much higher nickel content & therefore, is designed for use in the harshest,
most corrosive environments such as sea water or the chemical industry.
However 316 is not quite as strong as 303 (around 37-28 tons/sq inch) and is
twice the price!
Grade 304 is also occasionally mentioned. This is, primarily a
fabrication grade & is not, generally, recommended for machined components.
Stainless steel is a "non-reactive" metal. This is exactly why it is
used in the catering, medical & chemical industries. It does not react
with, or cause corrosion with, most other materials, such as alloy engine
cases!
I hope this puts your mind at rest. If you want to copy and paste this onto
the forum as a "sticky" or in the "info" section, please do so.
Very best wishes
Phil Denton
Phil can be found here.
http://www.phildentonengineering.com/
I look forward to reading your comments R :)
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err i think R is pulling your leg . I think he got you lock ,stock and barrel !
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Ride 'em cowboy!
Was R using rimmed or rimless ammo in his Lee-Enfield/Luger P08 armoury? I can see him now on a jet black Le Velocette, a rifle strapped to each saddlebag, the scourge of the local Lambretta SX club; guns & bikes, a rich & dangerous mix, our own version of the "Sons of Anarchy". Ride em boy, whip those Scooter boys asses!
Unless they have a Wildcat conversion, it makes 'em mighty quick, give that Le a good thrashing & swing out your .303!
Cheers
JBW
JBW
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Actually, something more like this comes to mind....
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Norton_Big_4_military_outfit.JPG/800px-Norton_Big_4_military_outfit.JPG