classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: johnnyboy-wonder57 on June 20, 2012, 08:28:59 PM
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A cautionary tale
, when motorcycles represent large wads of cash!
Follow link@
http://johnlumleyaffair.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/voc-how-things-used-to-be.html#comment-form
Philips x 2, Vincent & Irving would be alarmed by this I'm sure.
Owner's Clubs beware!
Cheers
JBW
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Fascinating reading, but why aren't they in jail?
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could be a way of trying to avoid death dutys , has been done before and the truth may drop someone right in it
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Nope, they thieved the dead bloke's bikes before probate was granted. A crime in more ways than one.
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Who cares? Bunch of arrogant tossers anyway! Nothing to do with my world.
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"before probate" that sounds right to me if your trying to avoid this duty , i think relatives may be behind this or know a bit more , but as the last post im not really that interested , but i will make sure i do not own anything when i go , that includes M/C property etc , ive payed tax already on these items and will make sure i dont leave my family will a large bill , its easy to do but needs to be done well in advance (years infact)
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I knew three blokes who owned Vincent's & not one of them could be described as an arrogant tosser!
I would love to be a Vincent tosser, maybe Roger could design a tasteful motive for my helmet!
OK, it was 30 years ago, but I think Roger that's a bit of a sweeping statement & the a similar thing has happened to the AJS/Matchless Owners Club in the UK * I have evidence to prove it when an 83 year old friend was conned by Kettering Classic Motorcycles in 2009 who were running the spares scheme, but I think its all been hushed up to save face!
Cheers
JBW
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do you mean conned as they bought all his spares etc at a bargain price ? or was it theft , i was a member of the ajs club and it seamed OK , but i still say the Panther club is the best by far , very down to earth straight members , this may have something to do with the value of the machines , when ever high value and money get involved things seam to go bad
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author=wetdog link=topic=4261.msg15627#msg15627 date=1340259996]
"before probate" that sounds right to me if your trying to avoid this duty ,
No expert by any means, but having gone through the probate process twice now I'm pretty sure that if you "remove" items etc from the deceased's estate before probate is granted you're guilty of deception etc at the very least, but in this case (as I've read in other accounts) the vultures did the old "he always promised me that Black Shadow" and stole it all before the inventory could be made. So they stole it from the dead bloke's estate (which is wrong) and removed it before the possible death duties were paid (also wrong). Whether it's "right" or even "interesting" is neither here nor there, but I wouldn't be too pleased if the Baron Tosspot de Smallcock secreted all his Vermeers and Matisses away to avoid death duties so why should this bloke (if that was the case?)
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said like a true polition or tax man , death duty is set to low and its not the fault of the occupant of a property they bought for 17,000 which is now worth £400,000 so leaving there relatives with the bill (before you add on that old bugatti in the shed) , your baron smallcock is already doing this via his trust funds (no fool) , problem here is joe public dont get it together in time or know they can do the same , the reson this has gone sour is someones got scared as it was not done over the correct time period and there way out has been to shout theft , there will be no conviction over this matter because there was no theft (the taxman may disagree) . Im sorry to here of your dutys twice you shold have looked into it in advance
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Neither a taxman or politico, but I believe in paying my way and that others should too. Tax avoidance/reduction is one thing, but blatant tax evasion is for the scum of society whether they be rich or poor.
Incidentally I didn't need to pay any death duties in either probate hearing as my old Dad, and then my Mum, never had anything more than the three-bed semi they sweated for for most of their lives and that was under the tax threshold, so no bitterness there.
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sorry to hear your parents didant do to well despite there efforts , if they had you maybe able to see the other side , which is after paying the tax on the money in order to purchace these items why should i or my family pay again when i dye ? if you have any family think of the debt you maybe leaving them with , i have done OK and have had to work hard for it and will make sure i dont own anything when they nail the lid down .
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if they had you maybe able to see the other side , which is after paying the tax on the money in order to purchace these items why should i or my family pay again when i dye
Why? Because that's the society we live in, and the tax framework and laws we (hopefully) abide by. Choosing to abide or not abide by certain rules is no more than anarchy.
Doesn't say much for 21st century civilisation if personal morality and ethos has progressed little more than that of the Pikies and travellers.
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your a fool , the very same people telling you to pay are not paying it them selfs , i understand your norms and mores statement but open your eyes , this tax is wronge
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In 2009. they,(Kettering Classic Motorcycles), took one complete bike & one bike stripped down plus a substantial amount of spares, he only phoned up for a quote on value & they turned up the next day with a van & cleared out his garage, he thought he had a cancer & had panicked & they I believe they preyed on hie vulnerability, he was in his 80s, they also tried to charge him £100 transport costs as they took his bikes & spares away, he refused to pay this fee.
They agreed a price, I believe it was too low, £200 less than £2,000 & then on the back of "Jampot", they advertised one machine above the value they gave him for the lot, they later dropped the price of this machine slightly. But , the worst thing was it took them over a year to send him the money, they had agreed to pay him in the first place, I sent them an email on his behalf they never got back to me, to the AJS & MOC, so I told him I would go up there with support & bring the machines back & contact the Police, we agreed a set date, one week before the set deadline, we had agreed with each other, they weirdly paid up, they must have had Mystic Meg in their workshop with her crystal ball!
The point that peed me off was that it caused him stress & if he had have died in the meantime then what then? I believe the AJS & Matchless Owner's Club are also £37000 down, by their own admission, in their accounts through some dishonest activity by some individuals, but I do not know who is responsible for this misdemeanor, they have now restructured their Committee & set-up!
Whoever was running KCM @ that time 2009, was not acting in my opinion, in a fair and ethical way! Guys do not fall out over taxhave you never wondered how the rich seem to keep their wealth whilst those trying to amass it seem to get knocked back down through tax laws & adherence to them?
You pay tax when you earn, you pay tax & duty on many things that you buy some of which are essential, some foods & petrol! VAT finds it way on to almost everything, because its on goods @ the clever bit, SERVICES & death duties, well maybe its the allowances that are screwed up but I think this particular angle is often less than ethical, plus you have only to consider our own MP's expenses scandal, to comfort yourselves that the right people are running the country, making the right decisions && all is tickety- boo!
I can see both points of view, I personally think we in Blighty are taxed to death, so come on guys shelve your differences & lets enjoy some banter, you both have many valid points to make & knowledge to share.
I heard of other businesses taking peoples bike collections selling them & not either informing them of the sales or not bothering to pay up, when they should have, a Lancashire firm near Blackburn was guilty of this. Then there are relatives putting pressure on Dad or Uncle or Grandad to sell whilst prices are high & maybe they do not want too & still get some joy polishes their beloved Cleethorpes 350cc V4 machine.
"Where there's brass there's muck", should be rewritten as "where there's brass there's, lies, cheating, skull-duggery, theft, deceit & on occasion honesty & trust".
But hey, this is what happens when things get too precious, makes me think of Gollum's, dilemma!
Cheers
JBW
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I can only say this , if you have kids / next of kin and you think you may fall foul of this unfair tax sort it out now before its to late as you may leave a large debt behind , property and vheicules have appretiated at an alarming rate over the last 30 years, and at my age it does not take much to reach the limit @370,000 , you need to start the ball rolling @ 7 years before you pass on but preferably before as if you have to go into care they also will assess your assets , again to much and its private care untill your skint , then and only then will you be eligible for help , I am assuming that Rex has kids and will be in this situation in which case sort it out before its to late , which i suspect is the underlying problem with this Vincent affair , the jampot story is sad and tells us to be warry of dealers bearing gifts , and always remember what ever a dealer will give you its worth more
PS cannot say to much but this man was in care and not dead when these machines where removed . thats the last i have to say
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I don't see anything "foolish" in standards and morality. Everything I have I've worked for, paid for and is legal, and that's the way I like it.
To justify twisting or evasion because you believe others are doing it too, is just lame and hardly worthy of reply.
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well said , leave it for your next of kin to sort out
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Got no next of kin :( .... except her who must be obeyed and she will be having the best garage clearout sale South Yorkshire ever had when I shuffle off this mortal coil.
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sorry to here that and this is not a uncommon situation , and in this instance when all you leave is assested by the vultures she can sell your hord and pay im sure , but they will not waight for there money, and if she is not very very fast (this is where the clear out bike dealer makes a killing) she will be paying interest on the loan she has had to take out in order to pay the DD , when you get to old to ride your bikes i would recommend selling and taking your self and good wife on that round the world trip or holiday of a life time you always planned , as there is no way you can take it with you .
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Now lets be right... Im a Yorkshireman, a week in Scarboro or Bridlington will do!
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nice area been there several times , theres a whole world out there your missing , get a more relyable bike ;D
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Aye and a big wide world of people with their hands held out - Yorkshiremen have deep pockets and short arms. (Oh and all my bikes are reliable)
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Not all fit your description (not the ones ive meet anyhow) and you do sound a bit paranoide :(
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Not any I have met are like I joking said and none are like you. Neither am I paranoid, perhaps on the contrary. Have you no humour in you? I read some of you previous posts and noticed you find it difficult to string a good sentence together without lambasting someone else. Try giving people a little more slack... like I am sure others, including myself have you.
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"string a good sentence together" read your posting again , your right my english is bad about the same as yours id have to say
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Q.E.D.
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think youll find thats ABC
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My old man once told me never to argue with morons and idiots "as they drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience"
I'll take his advice on this occasion.
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wise words ill remember those thanks
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I wouldn't pay too much heed Bomber. On another forum he used to claim he lived on a patch of land and trapped rabbits to eat. I'm guessing it's probably just a lonely soul in a little council flat somewhere...
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welcome back its Bumbers boyfreind Rex , sorry not me my council flats quite large and im happy by nature (some might say simple) hows that GCSE sociology going ?, see your working on the class system now and moved on from norms and mores :'(as it happens i do like rabbit (my age again) but i think you might find what your using them for my carry a prison sentance
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Guys,
C'mon everyone lighten up!
JBW
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Look you two, Rex & Wetdog, behave, this isn't funny, kiss & make up, not everything everyone writes is straight down the line, some of it "is tongue in cheek", no pun intended, Bomber's a good bloke & a mate of mine & has done some good motorcycle restoration jobs, good enough to get into the press, if you carry this on, no one will take either of you seriously & I still think you have positive things to contribute, so stop being silly & personal & discuss bikes & motorcycle issues!
Seriously pissed off....
JBW
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OK ......but no tongues and only if he has a shave
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On another forum he used to claim he lived on a patch of land and trapped rabbits to eat.
Do tell more please, we have a pikey on site? :o
(why is it anything to do with Vincents generally turns into a slagging match?)
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Rex is the expert on "Pikies and travellers" aswell as small rodent genital over coats , but Rex if you ever meat a traveller on your travels do not call them "Pikies" its not nice and they will tell you so im sure .
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This post has lost it's way and need closing down , this is a forum for British Bikes .
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i think your right , but its been a good laugh ;D
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There is a saying here, "When the Big Money moves in the nice people move out".. and that applies to all situations not just motorcycles.
As for Vincents, as a veteran of the BSAOC of Southern California back in the days when the late great and dearly departed Barry M L Smith ran the show, a few Vincent guys rode with us on our club outings, and IMHO all of the Vincent snobs were highly suspect at best and outright tossers at worst. In fact, I still recall a particularly good "tosser" joke from one of the Vincent miscreants and will gladly recite it when plied with enough inebriant in company. After all, who could be proud and willing to pay a lifetime's fortune to own a marque designed by a guy who knew nothing at all about motorcycles...?? except perhaps for a wealthy and sometimes dishonest oligarch enriched by ill-gotten gains of course. :) As for Farrow or whatever his name is who could take anyone seriously who wears a d*ckhead hat emblazoned by a commie red star while smoking a cigar and holding a tin of vaseline in hand while allowing his picture to be taken?
On the subject of Rex's taxes, most taxes here in yankland go to the evil empire's War Machine which I have gone to great personal lengths and sacrifice to DE-fund, and there is only one way to do that at a personal level.
:)
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am i right in saying you dont pay death duty in the states (as new zeland) ? over here when you pass on they give your next of kin a tax bill ? sounds mad but true
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Essentially the "death tax" was repealed in the us - that is, unless the deceased's estate is worth more than $5 mil USD. So the Lumley fortune would not qualify in the former US. But I thought the idea here was that a number of Vincents and rare bikes were "stolen" from the deceased? That seems like a more interesting topic than taxes....? unless someone engineered this to avoid the death tax! Sorry being a dumb yank I don't quite get it. I read about the top people like BMS being fired and not being able to report out on their findings, but I was looking for more of a "whodunnit" substance. After all, it is a cracking story. Now for a stolen Vincent to turn up in someone's possession after the fact and the local constabulary just turn a blind eye to it and ignore it? wow ..that does strike one as being a little strange. ::)
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the police are not interested as there was no theft , the man was in care and not dead , they where removed to avoid paying death duty which over here is assed and when you hit @£370,000 you start to pay , this is far to low as property and machines have shot up in value , a lot of people have had to sell family homes / items in order to pay , your $2million band sounds a lot fairer to me . Bomber and rex disagree and want to pay and insist avoiding this is a dissgrace and the mentallity of "pikies and travellers " ? I have arranged to avoid this tax and would urge others to do so as you are just funding the fat cats
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Thanks for the clarification. The Evil Empire rules and queenie is the wealthiest *** on the globe that's true .... and I'd bet taxes have something to do with it... so what's wrong with us rabbit eaters then? Not a Vincent to be seen among us tinkers. Trying to stay on topic here. Anyone got a spare HRD or two to give away before getting the chop? :-*
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so on the bikes alone without any other items eg property , savings ,etc , his next would be looking at a tax bill for dieing of @ £260,000 who thinks this is right or fair ?