classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: johnnyboy-wonder57 on February 02, 2013, 09:31:08 AM
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Bit of a Beast
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W03R_-maWy4
Cheers
JBW
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would rarther go down that route than imp engine featherbed if thats what your thinking
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My mate sold a JAP V twin some years ago & now wishes he have kept it!
The cost of a JAP V twin engine makes build costs prohibitive, if I was building a sprint bike, I suppose a V twin JAP is a good option.
Cheers
John
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i bought one last year , they are expensive but still about , and a new one (cameron) is about £9000
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Wetdog,
I do not know too much about J.A.P engines except the real name of the fellow, they were built in Tottenham, they were used as propriety engines for many makes and their application in Speedway & also in Sprints. The former yet another area we ruled until Jawa & G.M took over!
You're right, the J.A.P engine is impressive looking, it has a vintage "aura", but yet looks powerful and menacing. In "Built For Speed", there's a J.A.P 8-80powered Record Breaker, built by Bob Berry, a Mancunian, he had air intake ports built in the body-work to give a theoretical further 1lb per square inch boost @ 200mph, and 2.2lbs @ 300mph, I wondered what happened tom him and it?
Phil' Irving it his book on Motorcycle Engineering, has a little ode to them, as competition engines!
A good site set-up for a bad reason is, http://www.defunctspeedway.co.uk/ (http://www.defunctspeedway.co.uk/)
Also http://keep-turning-left.blogspot.co.uk/2009/09/jap-speedway-engine.html (http://keep-turning-left.blogspot.co.uk/2009/09/jap-speedway-engine.html)
Pretty sad what's going on so many things closing down, its like the Authorities want everyone to stay at home & watch the Telly or stay on the T'internet, permanently; cheaper Police bills, cheaper for the N.H.S, less traffic on the roads, more controlled population!
Its good what C.N.C machines can do, by the way you can get a new Manx or G50 engine for about £10,000!
Cheers
JBW
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Pretty sad what's going on so many things closing down, its like the Authorities want everyone to stay at home & watch the Telly or stay on the T'internet, permanently; cheaper Police bills, cheaper for the N.H.S, less traffic on the roads, more controlled population!
OK JBW I'll bite. What has the above paragraph got to do with JAP engines?
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mines just a spare for me car , would need to convert to air cooled for a bike i think ( all parts available ) , jap did some very nice air craft engines , i was out bid on one some years ago at a auction in birmingham , never found out where it went
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Rex,
Gotcha, hook,line & sinker,
http://www.defunctspeedway.co.uk/ (http://www.defunctspeedway.co.uk/), the closing down of venues for motorcycle sport & Community based activities. This site identifies, closed Speedway circuits, we lost one @ Canterbury, the corrupt Council sold the combined Football pitch/Athletics track that doubled on a Saturday night as a Greyhound Track/Speedway venue and on a Sunday for early morning boot-fairs to Developers; who then Gentrified the area and built monstrous buildings with apartments & £800,000 detached Executive Homes, now lots of people have no-where to play! Lots of the pubs have gone too!
Sod the population of the City & those that live around East Kent, there's no where to go any more Rex, (do you ever go out?), if you did you would find this to be true! If "they", can't stop you doing things with the Environment & Biodiversity, then they will get you on Land Hire rules, Health & Safety, Equality Laws, Race Laws & or God knows what, have you ever tried to organise anything Rex, its a Frigging nightmare, you have to pay Police & Ambulances, do a Risk Assessment 150 pages, identify how many people may/are going to die at your Event, provide barriers...blah,blah,blah.....
They do not want people to do things any more, what other logical explanation is there?
Ironically, my Wife's Father raised money for years to support stated lost Community events and with a stroke of an Executives pen, the whole lot was gone overnight! 40 years of Fund Raising with other like minded people, how did they do it, they sneaked around with noise meters and got one or two complaints after stirring up a Hornets nest in the local press!
You see the other development with £800,000 houses could not have been developed & commanded such high prices had Kingsmead Stadium still been adjacent to it!
Can't explain it any other way Rex, big money wins every time even if it means changing an entire Nations culture, think about it!
Cheers
JBW
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again............................OK JBW I'll bite. What has the above paragraph got to do with JAP engines?........?
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Arrgh!
Nothing directly, indirectly the loss of a Speedway circuit, alternatively, some old timers occasionally ran old bikes round & some had J.A.P engines, maybe J.A.P would have survived had circuits stayed open, maybe if the factories had not pulled out of racing.....!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are not trying to wind- me up are you?
Cheers
JBW
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Nothing directly.................... exactly nothing ..............who stays afloat making speed way engines only ?
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Wetdog,
Kicked around with VMCC members since teens, built my first bike @17, fell across bike gangs mid 70s, some mates joined them and came to sad ends some time later. Worked abroad came back, noticed the big decline in the last 20 years, jobs, opportunities, the ability to earn money, the Financial crash of 2008, caused me to re-think things, we could have lost everything & had to re-jig life.
I think everything is linked to everything else, you cannot separate things, that easily, lack of money the death of widespread cheapish motor-sport, venues closing down, price of fuel, energy, inflation, public gullibility all add to the mix.
We cannot afford to watch Sprints, Grass Track, Canada Heights Moto X, Brighton Sprint, HougtonTowers, Club Runs like we use to, last time I went back up North it was £150 ish in fuel & that's not running about a lot.
J.A.P engines were used in other applications were they not, agree only CNC can keep things alive, but costs are still high to buyers in UK, even with modern manufacturing techniques.
J.A.P probably went bust a long time ago 40s?, G.L.C would have finished them off in London anyway, vis A.M.C were supposed to move to Isle of Sheppy from Plumstead.
In the present climate any industry, would be lucky to stay afloat, no matter what it did, defence contracts of not.
3 complete bikes, 2 old cars 1 French, 1 German, various Imp engines, two British 4 stroke engines & parts stored at relatives, for later applications.
In the extended Family a Douglas, a Rudge, and a Triumph twin, stepson has some bikes, but I'm not sure what he has now, they are, what is left, all locked away after a theft that happened two years ago, the modern world eh!
Of course not, been to Brighton Sprint enough times to see the Hayabusa's run, good giggle though if it happened,
its a good day in the pits.
Is the last post a criticism?
Cheers
JBW
Internet will delay post, system updating!
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RE-Post:
OK JBW I'll bite. What has the above paragraph got to do with JAP engines? Rex;
again............................OK JBW I'll bite. What has the above paragraph got to do with JAP engines?........? wetdog I think!
My post boys, (Rex & wetdog,) if you have a problem with it, don't read or contribute to it, fair enough judgement, I think, but I especially warn you, do not try & be smart on-line, in a personal way, trying to insinuate things by said, or unsaid items!
Now I have had my little spat, its all over with!
Cheers
JBW
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I've just seen all this above, (although quite what "hook line and sinker" I'm supposed to have taken has missed me)
JBW this site is (supposed to be) about bikes whatever line you may like to take it down.
Like you, many things irritate me too (and yes, I do get out, although what's that you said about personal comments?) but I'm sure there's more suitable sites than this to expound your particular views. You seem to verge on being a Conspiracy Theorist, while I'm the complete opposite. I believe things get done despite the best efforts of the planners etc and I don't believe for one second that things are "linked" by some master plan or Machiavellian Bond villain cackling away in some bunker about how he closed the dog tracks and sold off the playing fields in East Sheen (or whatever) and closed pubs.
Things change, peoples' interests change and industry changes, but there's no Master Plan.
So "especially warn" away if you wish, but if you don't want a response which disagrees with your particular take on things then don't post. Simple, eh?
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Clever reply Rex, you are a reasonable man.
JBW
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Rex,
I rather have my views, which incidentally, I feel, are not as extreme as you paint. I do not know of any DR.Evil, but I do know that usually, at every possible opportunity, you try & link & weave your Xenophobic views on race or other Countries into topics, implicating individuals with brown, tan or other language speakers even those with white coloured faces, where I link, World Governance, Politicians & Local Councils for some of the ills, re-Transport policies of which motorcycles form a part, do they not, albeit British Bikes a smaller & smaller fraction, as they make the transition to economic investment & deified status.
I prefer instead to avoid the judgements, manipulations & propaganda used, in the past & now, to justify the vilification & possible extermination of others in tempestuous times of severe economic depression. I do not agree surprisingly, (I hear you say), with everything that has been done in the UK, re-immigration over the Post War period, but as you say the "Things change, peoples' interests change and industry changes,". The big difference is policies I believe to be most at fault, rather than blindly blaming slightly different individuals.
Your right Rex, this Site is about British Bikes, in view of this observation, that makes me & you no different then, in espousing slightly wider viewpoints.
I do not mind people disagreeing with me, but I do mind the way it is done. I started to notice a pick-iness & aggressiveness in your posts, especially this one, lets say an attack, not backed up by reasonable assertions, well, I'm sorry to disappoint Rex, but I won't be bullied off the site by you & yet when it comes to doing something constructive about rogue dealers & inferior products being sold to like-minded punters, restoring & purchasing motorcycles, you shy away, no forthright opinions here I note, that you want to be directly connected with.
The Main issue: The J.A.P Engine:
I like the look of the J.A.P engine pictures, & I wondered about the absence of a rocker box , presumably, this would enhance wear & tear on the valve gear & further engine wear would be accelerated by oil contamination with grit .
However, & I may be wrong (& I can see that in Sprinters, maybe the absence of a Rocker box would not be too much of a problem due to the specialist short term use); but road going models, surely, would have needed protection by Rocker Boxes, later on in their development to cut down on wear & tear & I thought I have seen them sporting rocker boxes in historic displays.
Am I right or am I thinking of another engine?
Cheers
JBW
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I rather have my views, which incidentally, I feel, are not as extreme as you paint. I do not know of any DR.Evil, but I do know that usually, at every possible opportunity, you try & link & weave your Xenophobic views on race or other Countries into topics, implicating individuals with brown, tan or other language speakers even those with white coloured faces, where I link, World Governance, Politicians & Local Councils for some of the ills, re-Transport policies of which motor
JBW your posts are becoming ever more fanciful and bizarre. Please consider what you're posting before posting it and save yourself the embarrassment of such wild allegations.
when it comes to doing something constructive about rogue dealers & inferior products being sold to like-minded punters, restoring & purchasing motorcycles, you shy away, no forthright opinions here I note, that you want to be directly connected with.
I've already made the point that making such a list would both leave the list owner open to litigation, and be unfair to the sellers, who'd have no right of reply. Instead of fretting over what I think about the idea why not email the list owner and ask his views on it?
If it's such a big deal for you then start your own site complete with such a list?
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"accelerated by oil contamination with grit " ............ this is true there is a ware issue here , you do know that these v twins (the ones i have ) run a total loss system , the oil is regulated from inside the car and is the passengers job , someone to blame when it goes bang :D
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Hi JBW,
However, & I may be wrong (& I can see that in Sprinters, maybe the absence of a Rocker box would not be too much of a problem due to the specialist short term use); but road going models, surely, would have needed protection by Rocker Boxes, later on in their development to cut down on wear & tear & I thought I have seen them sporting rocker boxes in historic displays.
Am I right or am I thinking of another engine?
Yes you are correct, the speedway engines and some road engines were and can be fitted with valve covers
A tin cup sits under the valve spring and a two piece alloy casting clamps around the alloy rockerbox where the rocker exits to operate the valve
See here
http://www.500race.org/Marques/JAP.htm
Cheers
John
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chaterlea25
Cheers for that, I have a mate with an International with exposed valves & I remember seeing footage of piston-engined aircraft in the older days with exposed valves, I know it aids cooling, but contamination would be a big problem too.
wetdog, total-loss system, is that applicable to all these engines then?
Rex, I will check out Consumer Rights & the Trade Descriptions Act e.t.c. I think you will find the Laws for he consumer are stronger than you may think!
Cheers
JBW
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(the ones i have )
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Hi!
Now, what happened to this baby, I didn't know J.A.P had built a 4-cylinder unit!
Love the advert!
Cheers for the link Chaterlea25 very interesting!
Cheers
JBW
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jap built v eights in the early 1900s , they where enginners
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wetdog,
Glad to hear it, why did they not market the engine, (modified), to Norton/BSA someone, then for racing?
Rather than the probably costly to develop B.R.M effort, or as an additional choice.
They, Norton, desperately needed a 4, even if they didn't admit, realise it at the time.
Geoff Duke warned them of complacency!
Cheers
JBW
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to big i guess (like the straight 3) they went down the v twin route and this was used by most for bikes ,planes , industry etc
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What a marvellous engine that JAP4 looks to be.
Just what Nortons were dreaming of, as someone said.
Shame nothing came of it ?
JAP v-twins were about gone by then.
Postwar, the new design 1000cc ohv wasn't taken up by anyone.
Only a few speedway merchants still used the v-twin racing engines....
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R,
One additional effect, (as well as restrictions & material shortages), after the War on manufacturers could have been the surplus of W.D equipment, that was pressed into Civilian service, affecting equipment/engine manufacturer's in particular, cheap options were needed to get things rolling again!
Even now in Kent, there's always talk of the chalk tunnels being filled with USA army surplus stuff, trouble is where it happened near Ash, there was U.S.A base near there, they reckon most of the stuff was/is prone to being under-water, seeing chalk is a aquifer, and subsequently damaged, by immersion in water..
But what a waste, why wasn't it just decommissioned & sold on?
Somewhere I read that sometime after the War, Motorcyclists & probably Motorists too, demonstrated against fuel rationing, in particular with respect to reviving Motor-sport activities, but also the lack of fuel for personal use, was an big issue also!
France, was quick off the mark with Motor-Sport as ever, leaving the Brit's lagging behind!
Cheers
JBW
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Vincents sold, JAPs didn't.
Draw your own conclusions ?
That JAP4 looks like the business though.
Anyone know what happened to it (them ?). ?
Be interesting to compare to the inline Guzzi4 ??
Similar era....
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tryed but failed to move with the times , like most of the british bike builders if not industry , vincent also went the same way
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Hi,
Was it thought at the time, that the Vincent "V" twin was seen as innovative & the older J.A.P "V" twin wasn't?
Isn't there a story that Vincent built his own engines, because he was let down by some J.A.P units, or was this embroidered into a piece of clever self-publicity, pumping up the Vincent and putting down J.A.P units, their production & product quality output!
I found some information:
"At this stage Vincent was using proprietary engines, from Rudge and J.A.P, and a combination of being badly let down in the 1934 T.T. by one supplier and supply problems with the other caused him, with the help of Phil Irving, to design his own high pushrod engine, the 500cc Single. The story then goes that a chance juxtaposition of two drawings at an angle led Phil Irving to design the first Rapide V-Twin, the Plumber's Nightmare in 1936."
http://www.voc.uk.com/clubinfo.php (http://www.voc.uk.com/clubinfo.php)
J.A.P should have known by the mid thirties, what they were doing, in motorcycle engineering terms & Rudge were renown for their fine engineering, maybe there is more to this story than first thought.
Maybe, it was a clash of personalities, maybe, it was envy of Company reputations or Skewed Company Management policies/industrial politics to frustrate competitors!.
Perhaps, aesthetically, the Vincent engine looked less post-war than the J.A.P units & of course J.A.P engines had been used in the other elite British "V" twin the Brough Superior!
Was it costs?
Guess we will never know!
Cheers
JBW
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Guess we will never know!
You have hit all the nails on the head !
So we do know.
One not mentioned though was AUTOMATION. All the car makers of the time were switching from near individually hand made cars to mass production = production lines. The Mini was quoted as ending more than a few motorcycle factories economic dreams. Only Nortons (was it, with the Commando ?) actually got to this line of thinking (pardon the pun) = a production line, rather than bikes built on benches.
Oddly these days, hand-made is back, its come full circle ? . Harleys can be had wth as many individual specified options as ypu can imagine - a modern day Brough Superior, in the showrooms . And Aston Martin and Morgan pride themselves on their hand-built quality. At a price, at a price.....
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"a production line" was a disaster for velocette , when bsa where at there max out put (1953 i think) 75,000 units a year , for the japanese this is less than a weeks output , british bike industry failed to move with the times unfortunatly . and latter the cars went the same total lack of investment
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Hi,
I think costs of production & inflation in particular is a killer when producing industrial products, plus faulty logic applied to management & predatory acquisitions and mergers!
How often have people read about successful R&D teams or production lines being re-jigged & for no particular good reason, where specialists and experts of indeed people familiar with certain products, (using the word in the old fashioned way) were disbanded or projects abandoned, BSA Gold Star, Bantam; Norton, the closure of Bracebridge Street wouldn't have been too bad had Hopwood acquired the New Industrial unit he wanted close by the original Midlands work force, again, with the move to Plumstead London, Norton expertise was lost & facts record this was so!
In Britain the Post Modernists couldn't wait for the death of Industry, planners architects developers had a hey-day, it was thought by the early Eighties that Finance & the Services would see "us" through in terms of wealth creation & jobs, Manufacturing was seen as as being "second-fiddle". Wealth, it was thought, would filter down through the population as if by an osmotic effect, but the reality is that for most people a "real" skilled or semi-skilled job in industry was the only hope they would have of earning a living wage. You need to export goods & expertise in Services to pay off the Balance of Payments. When there's nothing left to Export, the "shit hits the fan", sooner rather than later!
A Dutch female MEP on TV in the last 6 months, but not on Prime-Time said in no uncertain terms that the earnings of people in North-west Europe had to fall by a fifth if not a quarter to make the region as a whole economically viable again, I respect her honesty! The problem is other regions of the World aren't faced with such high living costs, stealth taxes, Green taxes & probably self-serving idiot politicians e.t.c.
You can't have your Cake & eat it, when I saw all the B.M.W's & Mercedes on the road, I thought instinctively some things wrong, you can't lose your major manufacturers in cars & motorcycles & import willy-Nilly and keep a healthy economy, a Global Free market is a dangerous place for most of us,re-jobs & livelihoods.
Researched, J.A.P some good stuff but it seems like the same old stuff is repeated across the Net, Primary source stuff is getting harder to find, by the way some of you may have noticed that Web browsers do not work like they did 10 years ago, as you search source material is shifted out, to what the Browser thinks you should receive, new technology eh! A guy does a presentation on this in YouTube, I noticed this effect some months ago & was puzzled by web search results or lack of them in breadth!
Interesting sites:
http://www.vintagespeedway.co.uk/www.vintagespeedway.co.uk/Home.html (http://www.vintagespeedway.co.uk/www.vintagespeedway.co.uk/Home.html)
http://www.japrestwich.com/ (http://www.japrestwich.com/)
Wink, sent you a PM!
Cheers
JBW
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i love the look of the custom bobber , but talk about a step backwards , and for £30,000 for a almost unusable bike (in the UK), they are only going to be bought by collectors and never seen again . good luck to them and well done , a large part of the machine looks harley or a good copy , and that price would buy you a very nice harley bobber and the trip to daytona to use it .
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Wetdog,
Did you use the other link for this bike?
See below!
http://www.japrestwich.com/new.htm (http://www.japrestwich.com/new.htm)
Some views here!
Cheers
JBW
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Sorry third part!
Cheers
JBW
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Re- J.A.P Motors:
First part! Introduction!
Some Quotes & Facts:
Alec card:
“Saturday afternoons I take a head out to the coast on the Brough & cruise along comfortably @120mph.”
“Indeed Alf Hagon, the man behind the famous shocks, once ran a JAP 1000cc bike @ 189mph over a flying kilometre!”
“You only need 30 b.h.p to propel a 240lb motorcycle to 100mph!”
Fact:
“The work done by Bert Le Vack, J.A.P's, Head of development, (joined march 1922), on the J.A.P engine meant that the engine produced 90 b.h.p @ 4,400 rpm, twice as much as a comparable Vincent twin, (Series A, Rapide, which came along in 1936)! It was some years before Vincent caught up with the Black Lightening, which went on to hold the record for the World's fastest production bike.”
Phil Irving: Vincent: A 1000cc engine developing 45b.h.p @ 5,300rpm will propel a solo model, (motorcycle), @ over 100 m.p.h on a top gear of 3.5:1, & will cruise @ 80m.p.h. @ which speed the engine is only turning over @ only 3,800 r.p.m.
....It would appear that the 650cc engine turning out around 35 b.h.p is fast enough for the majority of hard riders, especially for areas where high speeds cannot be sustained for long periods, (1961)!
How times change!
Maybe Vincent didn't have the edge after all!
Cheers
JBW
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More J.A.P stuff everywhere!
The only way you could out do these guys is to rebuild the original factory in Tottenham!
http://www.lamb-engineering.com/projects (http://www.lamb-engineering.com/projects)
/http://www.mfcpatterns-castings.co.uk/ (http://www.classicmotorcycleforum.com/http://www.mfcpatterns-castings.co.uk/)
http://www.eurospares.com/greg.html (http://www.eurospares.com/greg.html)
http://custommotorcycleart.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/mighty-jap-dominates-philip-island.html (http://custommotorcycleart.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/mighty-jap-dominates-philip-island.html)
http://cameronracingengines.com/esite/home (http://cameronracingengines.com/esite/home)
http://brough-superior.com/ws/frontend/seite/SeiteCms.php?coId=124&coType=navigation1 (http://brough-superior.com/ws/frontend/seite/SeiteCms.php?coId=124&coType=navigation1)
http://www.cheffins.co.uk/lot/-321397-vintage-0 (http://www.cheffins.co.uk/lot/-321397-vintage-0)
http://anarchadia.blogspot.co.uk/2008/08/vintage-thing-no25-norton-jap-v-twin.html (http://anarchadia.blogspot.co.uk/2008/08/vintage-thing-no25-norton-jap-v-twin.html)
Cheers
JBW