classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: Steve T on June 05, 2013, 12:59:32 AM
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The bike is in South Australia. It has a Villiers engine with B3833 on the cylinder, am unable to read the engine number. I'm unsure of the year, thinking WW2 era. Any information would be much appreciated, the plan is to restore it but really don't have much to work with.
Cheers...
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That would appear to be a just postwar Norman with the 125cc Mk 9D engine in it.
http://motorbike-search-engine.co.uk/classic_bikes/1946-norman.jpg
ACME and Waratah and other makes made something very similar, Villiers supplied a whole horde of makers.
Excelsior in the UK included.
The Rambler was a different model of Norman ?
P.S. Where is your gearchange lever ?
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Thanks for your help, gear lever is the flat piece of steel poking out from behind the exhaust.
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Norman were sold in Australia under both Norman or Roamer brand names (not Rambler) although there are stories they were sold in other countries as Ramblers. It was just badge engineering like Matchless/AJS. Exactly the same bike even to frame & engine numbers but different tank transfers.
If it has the original engine the number will start with the prefix 364/, the frame prefix is B/ as you show.
Norman/Roamer first arrived here in 1948 and as that was the last year of the 9D engine (the 10D appeared in 1949) I would say its pretty conclusive you have a 1948 Norman/Roamer.
The above info comes courtesy of my copy of Victoria Police Complete List of Motor Vehicles, Data for Registration Purposes.
The VMCC Library ( www.vmcc.net ) has a leaflet on the two bikes in the 1948 range and a broad range of Villiers info. They will happily sell photocopies to non-members. They can also supply all relevant Norman transfers but I think you'll find it difficult to find the Roamer equivalent as Roamer appears to be an overseas market name only.
Cheers,
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Interesting about that Roamer - anyone got a pic ?
A website on Normans has
http://www.normanmotorcycles.org.uk/modules/gallery/albums/Factory/img/090506050202_factorybikephoto02.jpg
http://www.normanmotorcycles.org.uk/modules/gallery/albums/Factory/img/090506050202_factorybikephoto03.jpg
although dosn't mention the year.
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The "Rambler" name was used by Super Elliott in Adelaide just post war" autocycles and Villiers 125 motorcycles. Nice find, particularly of interest in SA.
I wouldn't spend a cent on cosmetics. Tidy it up, restore the engine, forks and wheel bearings and take it for a ride.
Leon
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Curiouser and curiouser. Norman were sold under their own name plus Roamer in Victoria and Rambler in South Aust. Excelsior were sold under their own name throughout Australia plus as Waratah in New South Wales, mainly in Sydney it would appear.
Why was that? Why all the different names?
All of this was in the immediate postwar period. What was going on that required these very ordinary commuter style road bikes to need all these names? Was this some way to dodge import restrictions or to avoid dealing with the official importer? Has anyone any idea?
I'd love to know.
Cheers,
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I have no idea, but rebranding was a very common thing in Australia. When I get the chance I'll have a look to see if they sold Roamers here is SA as well as Rambler.
Steve - can we have a nice photo of the Rambler transfer on the petrol tank? Do we know what the Roamer transfer looked like?
Leon
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In the UK at various times there were a proliferation of 'kit' bikes, which avoided paying various taxes.
Maybe if the bikes were brought in as kits, with some local content added, something similar applied in Australia. ?
And as bike sales territories were state based, each state had one or more dealers/importers doing this - and they can't all use the same name....
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The 'kit' bike thing certainly worked in the 20's and 30's. The Waratah was basically a Sun-Villiers kit plus there were others like the Utility and Simplex, all Villiers powered. About the last was the Acme, introduced in 1939 and carrying on into the 40's finally stopping when Villiers stopped making the 9D engine.
Generally though these bikes were a unique assembly using their own frame numbers even though they were just a different way of assembling the standard British lightweight jigsaw puzzle.
These postwar bikes are different. There is no doubt they are Norman or Excelsior because they retain the Norman and Excelsior identifying numbers and they appear to have no local content. There is no attempt to disguise them as anything other than what they are-except for the transfer on the tank.
Finally, I've never seen either a Roamer or Rambler tank transfer. I have the Roamer info in my Police Records and have seen an old painted 'Roamer Agent' sign on an abandoned motorcycle shop in the country but nothing more.
It's just another of those odd little motorcycle mysteries I suppose.
Cheers,
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I've started something here!
Got a couple more photos that may help? Had no idea about any of this, very interesting...
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Hi Steve,
Nice images of the tank transfer - clearly something special for "Rambler" whatever that might be.
Can you give us your best guess at the engine and frame numbers?
33d6 gave us: "If it has the original engine the number will start with the prefix 364/, the frame prefix is B/" (if the bike is a rebadged Norman), but if I look at your first image seems to show no prefix on the frame number? This sort of thing is the key to differentiating "kit" bikes from "rebadged" bikes. For example A. G. Healing built many bikes from the teens into the 1920s. The complete Healing-built bikes have Healing frame numbers all over them (despite many different names on the tank), but there are other bikes that seem to use the same lugs, but have no frame numbers at all. Presumably the "no numbers" bikes are built from kits of Healing lugs.
Norman rebadged? Or kits of Norman parts built up locally (?) and badged Rambler? The answer might be in the numbers, or even the location of the numbers. Were Norman frame numbers stamped on the left side of the steering head lug?
Cheers
Leon
The attached image is taken from your original posting, just rotated and fiddled a bit.
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On top of all this it has competition plates fitted! One would have to be very, very hopeful to think a 9D powered bike would make a viable comp bike but it's better than not competing at all I suppose. Then again my mate has the sad remains of a 9D powered Montgomery Terrier and it was set up for 'competition' when he got it so there must have been something going on in the 125cc class way back then.
As a one time Acme rider I can't imagine what sort of competition you'd enter with anything powered by a 9D.
Whatever the case I hope Steve can get the Rambler back on the road and somehow preserve that magnificent Rambler tank emblem.
Cheers,
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Let's add a little to the confusion. Interesting to compare the first two attachments with the ones I've posted previously. It looks like machines branded both "Roamer" and "Rambler" were for sale at Super Elliott in Adelaide in 1949.
Add to this that George Bolton was selling Norman (by 1949 most of the adverts were for Norman Autocycles) and the "South Australian Distributor" for Norman was Hubbards. (see third attachment from 1945)
There is a story there waiting to be revealed, but I'm not sure who might know what it is. We need someone in management level in the motorcycle industry in Adelaide in the late 1940s. These people would now be into their 90s or older, so difficult to reveal info from this source. The other likely place would be the motorcycling press of the day, which was a little sparse.
Anyway Steve, if we get the engine and frame numbers they can be compared against the Norman numbers.
Cheers
Leon
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http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Norman
http://ramblercycles.wordpress.com/the-australian-rambler-club/
http://www.classicmotorcycleforum.com/index.php?topic=2006.0
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/BritishTwoStroke/message/1378
etc.
So not so mysterious perhaps?
Leon
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Do we know what the Roamer transfer looked like?
I bumped into this photo recently, showing a Roamer on a Super Elliott display in Adelaide the 1950s. Seems to be a 197cc Villiers (?) with swinging arm rear suspension, so maybe 1953 or so. In Adelaide you could buy this bike as a Roamer, Rambler, Norman, (all Norman brands) or it seems (during 1951-52) Super Elliott.
Anyway, the Roamer transfer is particularly ugly!
Leon
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I’m pretty sure it’s from 1954 Leon. That was their first year of what we would regard as a normal swing arm rear end. For the previous five years or so Norman/Roamer/Rambler had tried to develop their own Tele forks and rear suspension without success. 1954 saw a regular swing arm with bought in suspension units and bought in early MP (Metal Precision) front forks which were better than Normans own but had their own built in problems that didn’t come to light until rebuilding was necessary.
Finally they fitted those very pretty Armstrong leading link forks that more or less saw them out.
Normans made some very stylish lightweights in the 1950’s. All with front suspension’s that can make a grown man weep. Ask me how I know.
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All with front suspension’s that can make a grown man weep. Ask me how I know.
I'm ready!
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Norman fork’s range from the sublime to the gorblimey, but all present unusual problems to the modern restorer.
Norman first discarded girders to make their own forks in the late 40’s. This was the period when Britain had cleaned up after WWII and everything had to be new and fresh. Girders were out and télés were in except few designers actually had any idea of how they worked.
The Norman concept had a quantity of oil held in the top of the teles above the seals where it would magically provide some sort of damping action. They further provided a balance tube on the top yoke connecting each leg so oil could move itself from leg to leg to balance out the action. The Owners Manual carefully advises that a quarter pint of engine oil only needs to be poured in one leg for successful operation. Further to this they fitted grease nipples to lubricate the bushes and advised they should be oiled (not greased)every 200 miles.
In service the oil soon found its way past the seals to fill up the void below. Needless to say no drain plug was provided so the oil just accumulated and steadily reduced the fork action as it did so. The only way you find out why your forks don’t work is to pull them apart and find the accumulated mess. Luckily, having a fairly extensive library I found various illustrations in Show magazines of the day that helped a lot.
To be fair Norman realised this quite quickly removing the balance tube and revising the Owners Manual to just providing enough oil to lubricate the internals and no more. Problem solved——-not.
Unfortunately the most easily available Owners Manual is the early version without the fork revisions and you don’t even know the revisions exist until a friend chances on a later copy in an op shop. Needless to say Norman didn’t reprint the Manual but merely printed the revised instructions on a slip of paper and glued it over the top of the original. Using a minute blob of glue of course so you can flip back and forth to see both.
After a few years Norman dropped their own make forks and fitted early undamped MP (Metal Precision) forks. Neither better nor worse than their own I think it was just cheaper and easier to buy in forks than develop their own.
Early MP forks are what current riders call “upside down ‘ forks with the slider working up and down inside a bushed outer shroud. When the fork bushes are worn out the sliders will have twice the wear and also need replacing. Essentially rather than being the wearing part the bushes act as laps. Road grit and the like embeds itself in the bushes then wears away the sliders much more effectively than it does the bushes. As there are no spare’s available rebuilding early MP forks requires pretty good machine shop facilities. And I’m not even mentioning the basic design that makes disassembly without damage a nightmare.
Finally Norman fitted Armstrong leading link forks. Bang up to date and as good a lightweight fork as you could get at the time. Pity Armstrong disappeared from the game. Rebuilding a set of Armstrong’s will lead down many rabbit holes and expenditure. Even worse if they are bent. But a late model Norman twin is a very pretty bike and rides as well as it looks.
So there you are, get yourself a classic Norman and you will have a bike where the front end restoration may take as much effort as the rest of the bike.
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Oddly enough, you can almost substitute the word Norman with Norton here, and get almost the same story !!
Almost - the technicalities vary a little. But spread over many decades.
Damping was almost a foreign concept back in those days !
And were often a case of one step forward, one backwards and 2 sideways. ?
We diverge, so the details can wait ...
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Wow.
I'd love to be a fly on the wall when management and designers were talking over new models and future directions. We think of 2-stroke lightweights as being pretty utilitarian, but there were obviously people in the companies who had aspirations to build a better mousetrap. I have to admit I don't know (or didn't know!) much about Normans, but I'll think better of their efforts from now on.
I recently researched Tilbrook in South Australia, and like some of the more interesting UK brands (DOT, DMW, Greeves...) it was a good reminder that there were some very interesting Villiers-engined bikes built in the 1950s.
Re the swing-arm Roamer in the photo above, I'd say 33d6 is spot on with 1954 (see attached). In 1951 and 1952 Super Elliott seem to have sold autocycles and Villiers engined "Super Elliotts", but I could find no photo or survivor... I assume they were just re-branded Norman/Roamer/Rambler. Yell if you've seen one!
Cheers
Leon
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Looks to be something similar in about the middle.
Bicycles rule OK ?
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/ySwFAb9ky9ap2RhIUMqwVF2YMlBGL5AmdHI_Wk-8ohs5yYb02PCvu9CeFxZd0A_tJlimSrICWMiv3n8IMCwRAABKNGGkz1aOOY1uSqJM_NW3pOk1NaC_G14ZZ9obg0lJtPbh6cmI4wSHbjXA
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It's the same photo! I've not figured out where it was taken - the photo is part of a collection attributed to British Tube Mills, and presumably it was in Adelaide, and now we knoe it was c1954 I will take another look.
Leon
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The past is truly a foreign country, as the old cliche goes.
Take Scott, postwar. Presumably they started with a blank sheet of paper with a sports bike for the new era of post-war enlightenment.
"Righto Smithers, take down the following model requirements-
1) oil injection, no premix here
2) double-sided front brake, huge back brake for max braking efficiency
3) Oleo-pneumatic Dowty forks developed from WW2 aircraft landing gear and giving a wonderfully supple and compliant ride
4) Water cooled engine for max power and efficiency."
"Very good boss, but how about the number of gears and rear suspension?"
"A three speed gearbox and a rigid rear is good enough for any chap and that's what we'll fit".
And so they did, and duly went under three years later.