classic motorcycle forum
The VintageBike Message Board => Autojumble => Topic started by: Tidyrob69 on February 20, 2018, 01:17:38 AM
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Could anyone help?
I'm looking for a Dolls head gearbox for a Norton 16H.
Rob
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Rob,
is it for your 1946 16H ? ...if so it's a one year only gearbox as the cover changed for 1947.
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The near 100,000 boxes built for WW2 bikes aren't so different ?
Likewise 1930s versions.
??
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The near 100,000 boxes built for WW2 bikes aren't so different ?
Likewise 1930s versions.
??
They are if you want the correct box for 1946 and not an ex WD box.....simples
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How are they any different though ?
Even a rivet counter would have trouble knowing what the correct number sequence was...
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The outer case and the clutch adjuster cover are totally different....even a 5 year old kid would see the difference let alone a rivet counter ::)
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I can't help thinking you are talking about the upright box - for 1946 & 1947 - enclosed and with the round clutch adjuster cover ?
Would the OP here bike have had such a box, they are generally shown with the dolls head box that early ?? Did we ascertain also that this bike was manufactured in 1946, and is not a refurbed WW2 bike 1st registered in 1946 ?
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you'd be better off asking on the WD 16H site, or the WDM20 site.
or here
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Norton-ES2-16H-18-BIG4-Gearbox/173211047174?hash=item28542ed506:g:VYkAAOSw4ltapZvO
these boxes are nearly always 90% knackered or have broken lugs.
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For a fee, the NOC can check the factory records and see if the build spec was recorded.
Just knowing if its a civvy or ex-WD bike would about give the same info, since postwar civvy bikes are easy to date precisely from the numbers, this info is well documented.
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I can't help thinking you are talking about the upright box - for 1946 & 1947 - enclosed and with the round clutch adjuster cover ?
Would the OP here bike have had such a box, they are generally shown with the dolls head box that early ?? Did we ascertain also that this bike was manufactured in 1946, and is not a refurbed WW2 bike 1st registered in 1946 ?
Wrong again...the 1947 box had a lozenge shaped clutch adjuster cover....the '46 box was a one year ONLY box with the circular disc cover. But its irrelevant anyway as looking at Tidyrobs other post his bike is an ex WD bike and not a '46 produced bike anyway.
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You are being the serious rivet counter here !
There was more overlap in these things than you suggest, this has been discussed on various Norton forums, bikes keep turning up with non-catalog equip but which match the factory records,
so Nortons evidently used whatever was to hand sometimes to turn out bikes for sale.
The dolls head box lingered for the 500T and manx for example, for some years too, so were stocked for years after most folks say they were gone...
And, strictly speaking, approx 95% (?) of '1946' model Nortons are ex-WD bikes,
since this was the year of 1st registration, and refurbed ex-military bikes were swamping the market. (military bikes weren't registered, but they did have to have a military number).
Never mind that they were manufactured during the war years.
And yes, the dolls head box was suggested here precisely because his bike looked to be an ex-military bike, without this having been confirmed yet.
Makes finding a suitable box fairly straightforward.
Actually helping folks is what these forums are all about...
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And, strictly speaking, approx 95% (?) of '1946' model Nortons are ex-WD bikes,
Actually helping folks is what these forums are all about...
A sweeping and unsubstantiated statement...and me pointing them in the right direction of what was standard specification isn't helping him then ? ......wheras you ruminating and sowing doubt is ? Oh well... enjoy your existence, if you can call it that.
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How does telling about models which isn't his help, apart from sowing doubt ?
Unsubstantiated ?
How many factory built Nortons were about just after the war.
Versus how many refurbed WW2 bikes.
Surely even you can see the relative numbers.
I actually have a 1945 civvy model (not Norton though), one of very few known.
Try finding another, in a sea of ex-WW2 ones ?
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You have no cast iron statistics or sales figures to rely on, therefore it's merely your "opinion" and an unsubstantiated one at that.
I have a 1946 Norton registered 30th Jan 46....and know of several other late 45 bikes-early 46 bikes....so challenge accepted and completed. NEXT !
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This subject has been well thrashed to death on Norton forums over the years !
Its not just my opinion.
Apart from that there is considerable variations quoted in how many bikes Norton actually produced post WW2 - Roy Bacon, the NOC and the other list show quite wide divergences - and the model mix is hotly debated too. As you can imagine, new 16H Nortons were tough to sell in a sea of refurbed ex-WW2 bikes, so it is thought that Model 18 were much of the production. ?
With tens of thousands of ex-WW2 16H's coming onto the market over a few years after WW2, a low number of new civvy 16h bikes were swamped, so that 95% is not beyond a reality.
Its also worth commenting that you are pushing the UK view of Norton history.
If you get out in the colonies, what the Dealers received was often old spec bikes, or using up old stock components, a not unknown ploy amongst many a factory. Didn't Art Sirota's 1946 Model 18 in Calif famously have a dollshead box, the subject of some discussion.
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There is also a pic of a 1946 16H in a Roy Bacon book p112 fitted with a handchange gearbox, specially ordered for a disabled serviceman. Bike appears to be new.
Gearlever has a gate though, so no fishing for gears, unlike the OP here.
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I have no idea of numbers but if you look at any edition of the Blue or Green uns for the immediate post was period they are flooded with ads from Claude & Rye etc for "newly registered" re-enamelled 16Hs which of course are the ex-WD models. There are very few ads for new bikes at all from any manufacturer other than tiddlers.
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Yes, I have a (somewhat tatty) little ex-WD model (not Norton) that seemingly came through Marble Arch Motors in London. Finished in all maroon, although when examined in detail it is cellulose lacquer, so whether that made it any less expensive ?? We looked long and hard for any trace of military green, they sure did a very thorough job. They reportedly sold off thousands of ex-WD models, and there were many such advertised suppliers.
If you find the old sales catalogs, the ex-military stuff being sold off was in vast amounts, from depots all over the place. Our wheelbarrow for many a year had an aircraft tailwheel, reportedly a spitfire. the tyre was some sort of treadless synthetic/plastic, and never perished.
There has been some past discussion that perhaps postwar export models were a different spec to the domestic models - this Model 18 from Italy, note the dollshead box. Low engine number, there has been some discussion - perhaps the records have not survived - with considerable variations of how many were actually produced. Not a 16H however,..
https://assets.catawiki.nl/assets/2016/4/18/b/4/0/b40eec22-054b-11e6-91c9-42605cc1bb3b.jpg
https://assets.catawiki.nl/assets/2016/4/18/f/5/9/f59506ba-0549-11e6-85ba-5b9637f2081e.jpg