classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: qwerty on May 31, 2011, 12:44:41 PM
-
For inclusion in a novel I would be grateful for the following information
Anyone know the starting procedure.
I am assuming:
•Turning on petrol tap under tank.
•Tickling the carb.
•1/4 throttle
•Kick start.
Questions;
•Did they have a key ignition?
•Was there a choke? (I presume there was one, was it on the right or left-hand side of the handlebars?)
•Am I missing something else?
- Were there any quirks or foibles associated with the starting procedure that I could use for
authenticity?
Ta, qwerty.
-
Well, there are 2 carbs, to start with.
And the valve lifter, essential to get the crank to where it will start.
But you knew that...
"Am I missing something ?"
A Black Shadow ?
1st time we have been approached to help steal one ???
P.S. Rapides were more numerous.....
-
I wouldn't worry over-much; endless technical minutaie in a novel are a turn-off for me, and I like technical minutaie... ;)
-
Thanks, R -
Well, there are 2 carbs, to start with.
And the valve lifter, essential to get the crank to where it will start.
But you knew that...
Eh! No, what's a valve lifter?
What about the choke and ignition?
Rex, they are under time pressure and they can't get it started.
-
Dont forget to bring it up to compresion on one cylinder, go over a bit then the same on the other cylinder or your gonna get hurt!
-
they are under time pressure and they can't get it started
Oh dear, they have chosen the wrong bike haven't they?
don't know what sort of era your novel is set, but anyone who needed a quick getaway would be on a Triumph 650
why the Vincent,? drawn in by the myth?
as one who is contempory with the things I can only say they were an overrated pile of crap [and still are as far as I'm concerned]
-
Well, there are 2 carbs, to start with.
And the valve lifter, essential to get the crank to where it will start.
But you knew that...
Eh! No, what's a valve lifter?
What about the choke and ignition?
Rex, they are under time pressure and they can't get it started.
[/quote]
I take it they have turned on the petrol, downloaded a manual and read it.
-
Is this info still required ?
There is a video which sounds like it may help
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D00FcmgXxb8
Note that I haven't watched it...
Starting a bike which no-one is familiar with can sometimes be very tricky !
I've heard of folks selling them in despair.
Yes, the magneto lever should be part retarded for starting - assuming it pulls the timing full advanced for normal running, you set it back a bit.
Yes, if there is a choke lever - for normal running you pull it full up - you should feel it pull the choke slides up. For starting, drop them back down a bit - full down will probably be too much.
The valve lifter, which is normally near the clutch lever (but a shorter lever) is squeezed, and the kick starter gently pressed down - you should feel a piston go over top dead centre, and then the pressure comes off the kickstarter. Continue to squeeze the lever, and press down again on the kickstarter. Doing this, you find that you get 2 compressions in fairly close succession, then a long period where the flywheels can easily be turned over. The idea is to just ease over the second compression, stop squeezing the valve lifter, and then give a hefty kick to try and start it. This gives a l-o-n-g period of flywheel rotation to build up momentum during the kickstart kick, which should bounce it over compression, fire up and keeping running.
If this is too vague, can go into more detail.
Someone who is familiar with starting a big single should be able to help here too, its just a matter of finding the right crank position to start it. Setting the controls. And that long swinging kick.
Have fun.
-
Rex, they are under time pressure and they can't get it started.
Then the solution is obvious. Just rewrite it to-
"Hey Ismail, I can't get this fu***** pile of s**t started. Told you we shouldn't have gone shopping in that over-priced Atlantic Motorcycles in Berkshire..." ;)
-
Atlantic?
are they still going?
-
I took the liberty of writting this part of your story for you I hope it helps. LOL
After 4 or 5 attempts to start the Vincent it became clear why the Japanese had taken over the bike industry. The Honda hadnt been started for 6 months so it after turning the petrol on and flicking the key it took 2 kicks to get it running and they were away!
p.s. To be fair to Jim if anyone was silly enough to pay way over the odds for a bike from him without doing the research who was the fool? I knew Jim for a little while way back and for sure he was / is a total bandit but his customers were mainly people who were only buying because classic bikes seemed like a gold plated investment, they had ni knowledge of or interest in bikes for bikes sake.
-
To be fair to Jim i have bought two items off him , a two speed morgan and a 250 manxman , i have enjoyed both and bought them at a good price , both have been good solid investments , as dealers go hes OK but i would have bought private if they had what i wanted
-
Hold it! Hold it!........Sheeeeesh!
Okay, so I got it wrong, (sigh!).
It's 1972 in Spain. A male and a female are escaping from a remote house. They discover an immaculate well-loved m/cycle in the garage, the owner is Belgian but has lived in Spain since the end of WWII.
The male has never ridden a M/cycle and tries to start it but can't. He is pushed aside by the female who has ridden her brother's m/cycle and knows the likely starting sequence.
Ther questions I should of asked:-
A.Can anyone suggest a M/cycle, which would be a desirable classic in 1972, that is heavy, with a pillion but has a reasonably simple starting procedure, i.e. no valve lifters ar magneto thingamebobs?
B. Can anyone suggest a M/cycle that the female's brother could of owned (pre 1969), which could be the basis of the females knowledge - something smaller and lighter, (could be two stroke)?
I thank you.
-
T120 triumph, 6T triumph, T110 Triumph, BSA A10, BSA A65 1965 lightning ( simplest of the lot to start) Norton 600cc Dommi or even a Norton 650 , that's just a few that her brother may have had dealings with , even back in the 60's most younger people would not be able to afford a Vinny .
Most of the above ignition, tickle the carb or carbs depending on model, stroke engine to a point where you start to feel compression and give it a good kick some times with a slight blip of the throttle.
twin carbs
T120
A65 lightning
Single crab
6T
T110
A10
in the 60's the ton up boys would do there best to tune up their motorcycles, add the extra carb, add a morgo kit to the trumpies so they would be a 750 instead of a 650
-
It's 1972 in Spain. A male and a female are escaping from a remote house. They discover an immaculate well-loved m/cycle in the garage, the owner is Belgian but has lived in Spain since the end of WWII.
So how about a nice Sarolea, FN or Montesa? They would be more likely for a Belgian in Spain post WW2. A British roadburner would probably have been prohibitively expensive.
{Incidentally, "could of owned"? Sure you're a writer...? ;)}
-
Okay, thanks Rex (are you sure you're a king?)... snigger.
I've seen a photo of the (1945) Sarolea 1000cc and it's just right, it looks as though there's a choke on the left handlebar, but I need to know if it has a 'key' ignition? When were keys introduced?
The transmission looks to be 'rod' rather than chain, can that be right?
Welsh Wizard, yup, BSA for the brother's m/cycle.
-
I think you've all been sucked in to a windup!!
-
No it's genuine. If you have any doubt this is how it started.
http://www.writingforums.com/research/121636-vincent-black-shadow-mobike-1953-model.html
I've been a member there for four years. I got nil replies and one PM suggesting I try a specialist site.
So, anyone know when ignition keys became standard and were they in use on the (1945) Sarolea 1000cc?
My guess is they weren't. So soon after the war manufacturing capability would have been limited and innovative specification unlikely. Cars of that era would have door locks and push button starters.
-
Lesson 2 in how to steal a moidasickle ?
-
A Belgian in Spain since 1945? what was he a collaborator/black marketeer/ war criminal on the run?
Sounds dodgy to me.
I have had a lot of dealings with bikes in Spain, and indeed the peak of my dealings was in 1977-19 just after the fall of Franco.
You are up against several problems of credibility here;
After the civil war ended Franco put a block on all imports and of motor vehicles and spare parts especially. So by 1972 a hell of a lot of bikes were very badly butchered indeed just to keep them on the road.
Some were smuggled in, a lot of older stuff had been "modernised" locally, but also there were several home grown makes of small bikes, Bultaco, Montesa, Ossa and four stroke Sanglas etc
I would suggest therefore you have a choice of pre war OHV Norton singles, the Spanish forces used these, also believe it or not OHC velos.
But, more believably I think a pre war or ex Wehrmacht BMW would be much more believable, lots left there, or a home grown Sanglas 500cc single as used by Spanish police.
Older stuff except the BMW would be magneto ignition, others would be battery and likely flat.
Any large Belgian bike would have had to be pre war and therefore worn out. Of course there is the choice of some several tasty french bikes, Terrot, Motobecane, I think the credibility of a Vincent in Spain in the pre 72 era unlikely.
I exported a lot of bikes to Spain at that time, never saw or heard of a Vincent there, just about everything else though as before Franco Spain was a big Market for Brit exports.
A 1000cc Sarolea? thats a new one on me, after 1945 they made a 500 Sarolea Atlantic twin, I think it was, only a handful though and shortly after they were more or less defunct.
-
There is actually a pic of a 1000cc Sarolea on this very website.
http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/pictures/1945-sarolea-1000cc/
New one on me, I'd call that a very rare bike.
Or a BMW in disguise, although its not.
Ignition keys didn't generally appear until the mid 1950s, at least.
Before then it was often hard enough to start your own bike ? (jist kiddin).
hth
P.S. a bit of ferreting around reveals the above bike pic has lost its muffers, and from the model number may be a 1939 model, so may not be a perfect example of the genre. ?
http://www.hd-classic.be/en/moto_civil_detail.asp?id=332&NAV=1
-
A Belgian in Spain since 1945? what was he a collaborator/black marketeer/ war criminal on the run?
Sounds dodgy to me. I have had a lot of dealings with bikes in Spain, and indeed the peak of my dealings was in 1977-19 just after the fall of Franco. You are up against several problems of credibility here;.
The character is based on Leon Degrelle, (loads of google stuff) who would have been about 66 in 1972. He was admired by Franco and enjoyed priveleges and importing a m/cycle would not have been difficult. In my version he lives in remote campo near Estepona in Andalucia. For the purpose of the plot, and because he is a bit old to ride m'cycles, I have decided he has restored this classic m/cycle. The escaping male and female steal it.
After the civil war ended Franco put a block on all imports and of motor vehicles and spare parts especially. So by 1972 a hell of a lot of bikes were very badly butchered indeed just to keep them on the road.
Agreed, in another part of the plot I make reference to this. (I was there 1971-77) A common sight was to see women on the pillion of decrepit machines, riding sidesaddle!
I like the OHC Velo, I had settled on the Sarolea but I am worried that it might not be chain driven (plot purposes).
Good input, thanks.
Any large Belgian bike would have had to be pre war and therefore worn out.
I believe the Sarolea was used extensively as a sidecar vehicle during the war therefore must have been in prolific production, (but not the version in the picture R refers to... looking at the picture would you say it was chain drive?).
-
Well I found the 1000cc Sarolea, a new one on me, which on one link says about 10 produced, and very few of the sidecar drive ones which I very much doubt could have been in prolific production in an occupied country in war time?
The Belgian motorcycle industry never really recovered after the war ; that Sarolea is shaft driven, as were most German machines so that would rule out those for your purpose.
As in that era the most admired motorcycles around the world were British, believe it or not, and BSA and Norton were the two most likely to be found in Spain I would suggest one of those, does it have to be 1000cc machine, size is not necessarily synonymous with power in older machines, a good 500 would see off any doggy old side-valve V twin and any American bike such as Harley or Indian [too cliched anyway]
If you must have exotica how about a French Rene Gillet 750 V twin, and I think Coil ignition so easy to start or maybe even a Scott? Scotts had rapid acceleration, plenty of chains to break, and a distinctive exhaust note, I know there are a couple in Spain as I took one there myself!
FN made a superb four cylinder bike which was in production through the 1930s, another possibility for you?
PS
yers, just did a quick google, I wasn't far off the mark at all was I? murky business Spanish politics;
one thing I would say, Motorcyclists generally tend to disregard politics and or nationality in the their loyalty to a bike marque, save Japanese which is a whole different field altogether.
-
As in that era the most admired motorcycles around the world were British, believe it or not, and BSA and Norton were the two most likely to be found in Spain I would suggest one of those, does it have to be 1000cc machine, size is not necessarily synonymous with power in older machines, a good 500 would see off any doggy old side-valve V twin and any American bike such as Harley or Indian [too cliched anyway]
I can see I'm tying myself in a knot here. The male doesn't know dick about M/cycles and the female has ridden her brother's BSA Bantam and that's the extent of her knowledge.
Maybe I'd better stick to BSA's or Norton's. I want it to be an easy starter as long as you know where to switch the petrol on etc. It should be a bit of a beast, too much of a handful for an eight stone female with limited experience. It needs to be something that would have appeal to an enthusiastic restorer. That's narrowed it down. Any suggestions?
Thanks everybody for the input.
-
The male doesn't know dick about M/cycles
In which case he would not be likely to chose a bike as a means of escape? can he ride a bike already? I would think that he'd have been nabbed before he could start any kind of single, much less get a good start without stalling it.
It all smacks a bit of Hollywood BS where the hero jumps onto the nearest, usually trick bike, and becomes Evel Knievel.
Is it important that the bike has been restored? also be aware that us weird motorcyclists will restore anything that takes their fancy, I've done Mobylettes, maybe you should go back to consider a Spanish bike such a Montesa? 250 single two stroke, easy to start, mind you, you could be confronted with a left hand kickstart that kicks forward instead of back?
A Sanglas might be better, any 250 2 stroke would be capable of carrying two, the Bultacos and Montesas could be made quite rapid, but then you are into the starting problem again..........
you man will be dead by the time he gets on the bike, he'd do better to leg it.......
maybe you should re-write his biography a bit?
Nothing makes a story more laughable than poor research, I am trying hard to remember the name of the last yarn I read where a bike was involved in a getaway, riding a crashed Triumph two up through a forest at speed on two flat tyres............... yeh right.
Put them in a sports car is the easy option. or a taxi or a bus, or a tandem :D
-
My vote would be for a Spanish donkey to escape on.
{Cue- "how many legs has it got? What colour would be most common? "Does it eat anything".... ;)}
-
The male doesn't know dick about M/cycles
The girl drives the m/cycle.
Put them in a sports car is the easy option. or a taxi or a bus, or a tandem :D
The only other alternative was an 'orse.
-
'orse would be quicker............
the girl would be complaining about getting dirty..........
My angle would be to have them set light to the bike, and make it something really rare and expensive, the owner , if a true motorcyclist, would be more likely to look out for his pride and joy than chase after the other two. ::)
BTW you haven't yet as far as I can see but please don't call them bikers at any time, not only is it a modern term, but most of us consider it derogatory.
-
If her only experience was with a Bantam (2 stroke).... bigger stuff (4 stroke) would be beyond her understanding... just a thought.
-
BTW you haven't yet as far as I can see but please don't call them bikers at any time, not only is it a modern term, but most of us consider it derogatory.
This is a joke, right? Sarcasm is very difficult in print you have to give me a clue that your not joking.
If her only experience was with a Bantam (2 stroke).... bigger stuff (4 stroke) would be beyond her understanding... just a thought.
Yes, I had considered that. Conflict is very important in a plot, she doesn't manage very well...oh, there's a storm as well... a group of facists are after them... and... boy, they shoulda' taken the 'orse.
-
This is a joke, right? Sarcasm is very difficult in print you have to give me a clue that your not joking.
I most certainly am not joking; Many of us older motorcyclists feel quite strongly about the term, associating it with a certain variety of two wheel user, often the more anti social types, [but don't get sucked into the argument biker v. motorcyclist row here]
It was not a term used in the era you are using.
A girl [or a bloke] used to a Bantam would certainly be in deep merde in the circumstances you describe, If you are trying to get across some early, or learner ability on the part of the girl, I suggest you look at the idea of her previous experience being on a small 250 such as a BSA C12, which was a big little bike; staring procedure would be much the same except for the valve lifter control which a lot of newcomers to big single machines still have trouble using,its quite a knack.
You may need to cough up more info re the Bantam years of this girl.
whats so scary about facists? [joke alert]
[ For what its worth I am also an author]
-
BUMP
well what happened?
are you still there?
I hate cliffhanger endings
-
They couldn't start the Vinnie so they nicked his push-bike instead... ;)
-
that makes sense lets hope it was a tandem, a bit iffy on a cross bar.
very Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid...............................
-
"Pleurt keeps fallin' sur ma tete..." he sang, tunelessly... :D