classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: villiers on September 05, 2011, 07:06:53 PM
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Hi, i have just bought a Tandon motorcycle in trials/scrambles trim. Does anybody have any period photo's?
I know they made a scrambles but did they make a trials? Also unable to find a frame number, any idea where it might be stamped?
Any help apreciated, thanks.
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Roy Bacon doesn't list a trials Tandon model in his "Villiers singles and twins", only the 1954/1955 scrambler with the 8E 197cc engine. Unfortunately there is no picture.
But no doubt some of them would have been modified by their owners to participate in trials events.
There was in fact one works Tandon rider, John Babb, who used a modified 1954 Imp Supreme in scrambles and trials events.
I think the "Scrambler" model is derived from this machine.
You can find pictures of offroad Tandons on the internet but I think most of them have been modified in more recent times.
Cheers
Andy
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hold it, hold it! There was a trials model, the 1951/53 10D-engined 125cc Kangaroo with teles front and a rubber-sprung swingarm rear. Look here:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_FOaNp6XZ_1Q/SmjQuGpjNWI/AAAAAAAAAfY/b-77LszRrls/s400/tandonkanga.jpg
for 1952/53 it was joined by the Kangaroo Supreme with the 197cc 6E engine and a somewhat modified rear end - couldn't find a pic though.
Cheers
Andy
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Nice one Andy - note the clever rubber rear swing arm suspension. Tandon has a two-page entry in Don Morley's book "Classic British Two-Stroke Trials Bikes" (Osprey 1987), but unfortunately no photo of the Kangaroo.
Villiers - does your bike have the rubber rear end?
Leon
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I came across a Tandon Kangaroo trials bike basket case about 8 years ago.
As a pre65 trials rider I was intrigued by the model. I searched the internet but couldn't find a great deal about it but here's what I have found out.
The mark1 Tandon Kangaroo was available for 1951/2 as esometisse says with the 10d 125cc engine and shown well on the link.
The rear suspension was by rubber tubular block in compression by cantilever from the swinging arm under the engine as used on a couple of Tandon road models.
The lack of damping no doubt led to it being named the Kangaroo! Front suspension was by pogo forks of the period.
For 1953, the Mk2 Kangaroo replaced the mk1 and was given 'conventional' rear suspension with girling type units.
The Mk2 was also available as the Tandon Kangaroo Supreme with a 6E 197cc Villiers engine.
I bought the Kangaroo that turned out to be a Mk2 registered in Jan 1953 with a 125cc engine with a view to riding it in the Vintage 2 stroke class with the Yorkshire Classic MCC.
Over the period I gradually sorted it out. First job was to widen the rear end to take a 400 back tyre to replace the 325 originally fitted. Pogo forks would be no good so a set of heavyweight AMC units were engineered to fit.
A 6E 197cc engine was fitted using electronic ignition followed later by a 4 speed Albion gearbox (Tandon never fitted one). The frame is reminiscent of modern trials bikes with the low centre frame allowing a low seat height.
Why it didn't sell at the price would be down to a combination of fashion, lack of comptition success, suspicion of a budget brand and perhaps racial prejudice.
I think you'll agree that the attached photo shows what a bonnie little bike the Kangaroo was.
So far it has completed two Scottish pre65 2 day trials and is brought out regularly in YCMCC events and not doing too badly.
The only other Mk2 I know of is in California! It was taken there in the 50s with a shipment of British lightweights to see what the Americans made of them. Not much I suspect but the Kangaroo survived and is in the process of being restored.
I also know of a Mk1 near Pontefract and would be keen to hear of the whereabouts of any others.
Tandon did market a 'Scrambler' until the company went bust. It sold reasonably well and had some success in Ireland I'm told.
SLR
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Looks a nice little bike, but "racial prejudice"? Don't see the connection....
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... "racial prejudice"? Don't see the connection....
Tandon was founded and run by a gentleman of Indian descent but I doubt that many potential buyers at the time were aware of that.
Cheers
Andy
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Hi anyone with a Tandon or an interest......I recently brought the only official works Tandon which was ridden by John Babb quite successfully, on a good day he could get the better of Brian Stonebridge......I am certain that it is the correct bike as I had a photograph of myself riding at ARRINGTON in Cambridgeshire with John Babb leading Brian Stonebridge and myself....The Tandon is clearly shown in the picture with its distinctive differences that John made to this works bike, I remember John saying on one occasion when he rode, he was not a regular competitor, that the weight was to far forward so he moved the engine back in the frame.....The standard of the shelf scrambler was a very pretty little bike as ridden by Andrea Baldet and John Grose very competitively in the South Midland Centre and scored many success, as a young lad I had the chance to ride Andrea's bike on severial occasions but brought a DOT instead, on Andrea's advise, which looked somewhat simular......Going back to John Babb, he was a very forceful rider and I remember spent a lot of his time in the air so the Tandon had to stand up to some heavy welly.....I am now looking forward to completing the restoration of John's bike and riding it this coming summer, you never know a Tandon might appear in the propgramme at a pre 65 meeting some 60 years after its birth......John Willis
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I sold a Tandon 3 or 4 years ago to Patrick Farrance's father (Patrick being ex sidecar world champ) and his dad is a real Tandon nut, if you could get in touch with him I'm sure he will tell you all you need to know
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Hi Bomber.....The thing that I have a doubt about is the exact colour of BEIGE that Tandon used if you have any idea or know someone who has I would love to know......With modern paints you can get every shade imagineable and I would like to get it right.......fastaweigh@aol.com......John Willis
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I'd be grateful to know if there were any issues with fitting the four speed box to the 6E engine. Is it just a straight forward bolt on exercise or are there a few things to watch out for?
Cheers,
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It is quite easy I have done a couple recently to 8e engines and I think a 6e is the same casings you do have to make a few alterations but they are quite easy.....Are you doing it on A TANDON as there may not be quite enough room in the frame, that is my next project.....If you want to contact me direct my email address is on a comment to bomber above.....John
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I'd be grateful to know if there were any issues with fitting the four speed box to the 6E engine. Is it just a straight forward bolt on exercise or are there a few things to watch out for?
Cheers,
Hi - I take it you mean to use an Albion 4 speed box. One or two people have made 9E 4 speed boxes fit. Much better gearchange mechanism. I fitted an Albion box to my Kangaroo. It was not as straight forward as I expected.
1. It makes the engine/gearbox unit around half an inch longer so does involve alterations to the engine mountings.
2. The Albion box also hangs out the back and fouled the swinging arm so I had to move the whole unit forward by about an inch with new engine plates.
3. The 3 speed engine to gearbox mounts are in the same place but the top flywheel side stud is in the gearbox, not the crankcase so the crankcase stud thread has to be drilled out and the crankcases shaped to accept a small od nut on a shorter stud. Sadly my mod failed when this crankcase mount broke free. If you can find a pair of 4 speed crankcases I would recommend it.
4. The Albion gearchange is very poor and timing the mechanism correctly is essential. Mine still jumps past 3rd into a false neutral. I'll be trying to sort that soon.
The long term plan for me is to fit a 9E/4 box like the conversion Harry Stanistreet does. Anybody know what's Involved?
Good luck
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tandon. please bear with me ,first time on new computer. to JR ,my father is john babb, he says you must be the man on the AJS behind Stonebridge in our most treasured photo from his scrambling days. Stick in the mud, I might live near you maybe meet? I will see if this reply works, then if it does I shall be up all night! My dad says if you want to know about tandons phone him on 08432078352 .he is 88 years old, deaf and takes a while to get to the phone. PS if you want to talk about 1960·s sidecar sandracing he might remember that.
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Hi.....Just returned from the Far East to your message.....Would love to speak to your Dad for old times sake but I doubt wether he would remember me.....I live near Banbury and my email address is "fastaweigh@aol.com".....Somebody told me your Dad lives near Alicante in Spain, I go down near there on accasions to visit a cousin, is he up to visitors....Will give him a rind anyway......John Willis
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Hope you don't mind, but I've registered with the forum to try to find some info on some photos, hopefully members may be able to help.
My father in law has recently died, amongst his photos were some of his bikes from his racing days after the war - he'd often speak about his Norton International, but we don't remember him talking about this, his Tandon
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-G5rB-LwkdMw/T4nY-hWh8wI/AAAAAAAAAmo/sniTB7nvWNA/s800/20120412170315472_0001.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-YyDurQN0flU/T4nZAmmt-0I/AAAAAAAAAmw/D0He-wUThFQ/s800/20120412170153790_0001.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Pghim86lXXg/T4nZFY0i51I/AAAAAAAAAm4/_KIsvAaHCbM/s512/20120412170255765_0001.jpg) (https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-salH4kSdGoo/T4nZIEnncjI/AAAAAAAAAns/m0V3Ymxl-m0/s512/20120412170339039_0001.jpg)
From the images I can clearly see it is a Tandon and that it has a Villiers engine... but what model, what year might it be? From the shape of the frame it looks like a Tandon Kangaroo, but the rear suspension doesn't match other photos I've seen on line as his bike doesn't have rear twin shock absorbers.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Regards
Dave
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What super photographs , I would say from the early 50's....In those days scrambles riders just converted road bikes for Scrambling and this would appear to be what your father did and he probably rode to the meeting and home afterwards.....I rode in this period but do not recollect seeing this bike.....As you say it is a Kangaroo with a 125 c.c villiers engine with an sporty head which had a very unusal rear suspension.....Scrambling was done on a budget in those days as you know doubt have noticed your dads bike has a knobbly back tyre but a road going front that was not done on purpose but purily what he could afford, but I bet he really enjoyed himself....Love to know where the meeting was ?.....John Willis
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Thanks for the speedy reply JR
hows how observant I am, I'd not noticed the road tyres on the front and knobblies on the back. The lack of any lights or indicators would suggest (to me) that he didn't ride it there and back.
If it is the Tandon Kangaroo and it is monoblock rather that twin shock, does that make it a Mk1 from 51/52 as per the post by 'Stickinthemud' on Sept 29th? http://www.classicmotorcycleforum.com/index.php?topic=3907.msg13811#msg13811
Other bike photos in his possessions include a Norton International called 'Bigga Banger' which (according to the scribbles on the back) posted second fastest time of the day at the Brighton Speed Trials in 1946. And a Matchless, which I think is a G3 / G3L painted black. But I might need to post these pics elsewhere.
Dave
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Hi Again....I would have put it about the same year as stickinthemud but he would have probably scrambled it say around 1955/6 as I would doubt that your dad brought it new and converted it and also in approx 1952 Tandon brought out a very pretty swinging arm earls fork scambles bike of 197 c.c. made for the job.....I would say your Dad brought a rough road bike and converted it and went out and had some fun, scrambling in those days was made up of lots of bikes like that, I started on a converted B31 BSA 350 road bike which I tuned up and had some success with before getting a full 350 Scambles Matchless......By the way it would not have had indicators they were a thing of the future and you did'nt have to have lights and of course there were no such things as MOT's but even today your can get a daylight MOT without lights and in those days your either rode it to the meeting or if you were lucky enough to have a motorbike and side car chassis as transport, there were not to many vans about....Norton has never been my mark but if your Dad had an Inter in 1946 most people would have only dreamed about owning such a bike even today....Matchless well thats a different matter I still own several in various guises but there is a very good Owners Club Site.....Don't know to much about Tandon road bikes really other than what I have picked up recently but I was given a ride on a 1952 197 c.c. Tandon Scrambler on several occassions by Andrea Baldet a Motor Cycle dealer in Northampton back in those days and recently came across and brought the only official works Tandon Scrambler which John Babb rode which I am now restoring and the only thing I now need to know is the true BEIGE COLOUR that Tandon painted there bikes.....With modern paints there are so many shades.....I also have a Trials 197 Tandon which I shall rebuild at the same time once I know the colour......Is there any clue to the name of the meeting in the photographs where your Dad rode.I woukd love to know could have ridden against him....John
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Those were the days - when the same machine was used for both going to work and competing at weekends. Only the well off would have transport to carry their machine and I suspect would ride a more expensive and faster machine than a 125 Tandon! Note the lack of cars/vans in the paddock on photo 4.
Lights would have been removed either at home or at the meeting depending whether it would be dark before the rider reached home! Excellent photos Dave.
I've had a look at Bruce Main-Smith's copies of the 1953 and 54 Tandon sales brochures and the machine is almost certainly a Tandon Superglid (presumably pronounced Superglide). It appears in the '53 brochure along with the 197 Superglid Supreme but was not in the '54 one.
The attached copy of the announcement in 'Motor Cycling of Sept '52 shows both the Kangaroo and Superglid.
The Superglid has the larger 2 gall tank, the Kangaroo tank held only 1 gallon. Everything apart from the non standard seat fits the bill - which would have been £121 7sh 9d in 1953. Cheaper than most of it's rivals.
I'm intrigued by the cylinder head. When I bought my Kangaroo, it came with a 12D engine like the one in photo and in the 'basket' was one of those non standard heads! Photo attached.
Does anyone know anything about them? Presumably it improved performance, kept cooler and could have 2 plugs in case of 'whiskering', although your photo 2 photo appears to show a cable so presumable it was for a decompressor to help the not so good brakes of the day.
Excellent theme. Let us know where you post the Norton Inter and the G3 Dave.
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.....I also have a Trials 197 Tandon which I shall rebuild at the same time once I know the colour.........John
JR - according to the '53 B M-S copies, the Kangaroos were always 'Black stove enamelled. Bright parts chrome-plated.' Be interested to see a photo of your trials bike.
The Superglid was '....polychromatic blue, Tandon Rouge or black.' For 1954 all models went over to Beige with the famous red flash on the tank.
Here's more about some of their models - the Milemaster (a pre-war styled road bike) had gone and 4 models were listed for 1953. The 125cc Imp was the only rigid which together with the Kangaroo Supreme, Superglid and it's bigger brother 197 Superglid Supreme completed the range.
For 1954 six models were listed. The Imp remained and was joined by 2 conventionally sprung bigger 197cc brothers (one with 3, and 1 with 4 speed) but gone was the Kangaroo and in came the more successful 'Scrambler', the 225cc 1H Villiers engined Monarch and the Twin Supreme with the 242cc British Anzani rotory valved engine.
Sadly they did not sell in the required numbers, particularly in the initial target market of India and the company lasted a few more years before closing.
Shame
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Thanks for the positive comments - I'm afraid there is no evidence as to where the photos were taken. The only writing on the rear is 'before' and 'after' on the reverse of the clean and filthy pics :)
Mum thinks he lived in Ilford at the time, and raced in Royston (near Harlow, Hertfordshire) - might you have raced him?
I'm going to find the right forums to post the Norton and Matchless pics....
Dave
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I raced all over the south of England up to Leeds and Manchester and abroad in this period, certainly I raced at all the events around London including The Alley Pally and Royston, what was your dads name?....Currently away on hols so may not aswer quickly....John
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Hi John
His name was Donald Whitehead (Don). Apparently the race venue in Royston was called Rye House.
It would be a very small world indeed if it turns out that you raced against him
Dave
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Yes raced at Rye House fom 1952/3 onwards, but if my memory serves me right they lost the couse by 1960.....If your Dad raced there he would have also raced at Friars Walsh (its now under the M1)....mall world....ohn