classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: thicket on November 04, 2012, 06:40:37 PM
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Whilst talking to a mate the other day he mentioned his barber has a old british bike and he told him that under this new rule about not needing a M.O.T. on a historic bike that the machine has to be original or your bike loses its historic status and it will require both m.o.t. and tax. Is this true, does anyone know or where to find out?
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Thankfully it's a load of cobblers. What's "original" and who would be knowlegable enough to define it for several million old vehicles, some over a hundred years old?
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The tax and MOT exemptions are only based on dates and nothing more. If a vehicle was first registered before 1 Jan 1973 it can be an historic vehicle and tax exempt and before 1 Jan 1960 can become MOT exempt.
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"If a vehicle was first registered before"............ i think its manufactured . a birth certificate from one of the mark clubs can help here
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The DVLA actually go by the date of first registration stated on the V5 log book.
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Hi Guys
I restored and registered a 1946 BSA B32 completed in 2010, the V5 states "first registered 4th June 2010", on the front bottom of the V5 it says "declared manufactured in 1946". this bike qualifies as Historic for road tax and MOT purposes.
I trust this clears up any confusion.
This is the said bike.
(http://i690.photobucket.com/albums/vv261/Trifield/various%20bikes/B32028-1.jpg)
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....And very nice it is too. :)
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There is a new European directive in the offing which defines a historic vehicle as basically having no modifications to manufacturer's spec in appearance or major components but organisations all over Europe are pointing out to them how bonkers and unenforceable it is.
This has nothing to do with the new MOT exemptions but a version of it could mean that something like a VW-engined trike needs an MOT (which it probably couldn't pass) but an unmodified example wouldn't.
Quite how this would apply to something like a motorcycle registered as a Triton is beyond me. They'd probably like to ban 'em despite them being more sociologically significant than some obscure 2-stroke that only sold five examples.
Unfortunately, the only voice that Europe listened to initially was the type of person worried by rebodied saloon cars lowering the value of their ex-Le Mans winners.
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The other thing to remember is that it is voluntary you can still get an M.O.T. the Federation of British Vehicle Clubs did hold a ballot on this issue and I voted to retain the M.O.T. as I think it is good practice to have someone independent to check over vehicles once a year. Also it will be interesting to see how the insurance companies respond to this, when asked some time ago the response was no descision had as yet been taken. At the moment if you do not have a M.O.T. and you have an accident your insurance is invalidated so in the future how do you prove in the event of a claim that your vehicle is roadworthy at least once a year.
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There's a few anomalies in that post Bikerbob.
1) an unroadworthy vehicle doesn't necessarily invalidate your insurance, it knocks it down to Third party Only.
2) having an MoT (either now of after Nov 18th) doesn't prove any roadworthyness at any time.
3) If you have a "classic" you most likely service it too, and if you do that with any degree of success then you really don't need to pay someone else to give it a once-over.
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I take your point about insurance but it would still not surprise me if in the future insurance companies insisted that vehicles prior to 1960 had to have an independant check to prove that they are roadworthy before they will insure them particularly if they have been off the road for some time or have just been restored. I can still remember when you did not need an M.O.T. and when they were first introduced they were for vehicles over 10 years then they came down to 3 years and then since everything was computerised they now issue advisories all very good things. I am speaking as a person who has a good knowledge of motorcycles having restored a few over the years doing everything myself except regrinds and rebores and touch wood I have never had a bike fail an M.O.T. but am still firmly in favour of keeping them, it is good to have an independant check once a year we can all make mistakes.
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If an MOT is no longer required by law, then the Insurance Companies will have to except that, they cannot go making their own law.
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if you can prove the machine was manufactured pre 73 you will get historic , and free tax , eg your car bike may carry a reg in the year 73 and still be historic , there are plenty of people who have used this , the year of registation is not the final word
heres the wording for the tax and mot exemptions
How we identify a vehicle as ‘historic’
You may be able to tax your vehicle in the ‘historic vehicle’ tax class if it was built before 1 January 1973 and is one of the qualifying vehicles listed below.
As part of the Reducing Regulation agenda and the desire to remove unnecessary burdens on society, the Government is proposing to exempt pre-1960 manufactured vehicles from statutory MOT test, as allowed under Article 4(2) of EU Directive 2009/40/EC, and bring the age of vehicles requiring the statutory MOT test in line with The Goods Vehicles (Plating and Testing) Regulations 1988.
hope that helps
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I did not say that insurance companies would ask for a M.O.T. for vehicles prior to 1960 because that is not a legal requirement but there is nothing stopping an insurance company asking you to prove that your vehicle is roadworthy before they will insure it, in much the same way as they do agreed valuations. My insurance company Peter James will give you an agreed valuation up to £5000 based on the photographs and documentation but if it is over £5000 you have to get an independant valuation before they will agree value. It will be interesting to see how all this pans out in the future.
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Goldy is spot on. That is exactly what a Carol Nash team leader; on instructions from his line manager told me over the phone :)
Yes the conversation was recorded.
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Lovely bike Revband 8)
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Thanks Tun Up, (edit) oops sorry and thanks Rex.
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Don't be surprised if what BikerBob says bites us in the arse in future!
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Of course things can be changed over time. Remember the Tories brought in the sliding twenty five year rule for vehicle tax. The first thing Brown did was to make the cut of point static: thus depriving many classic vehicle enthusiasts free tax >:(. I for one am not going to worry about changes that might not be made ;).
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Were there any vehicles from 1987 that have gained any sort of classic status? Don't want to be encouraging smoky old Volvos and crap Peugeot 205s, that's for sure... ;)
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1960 is the cut off point for MOT's and road tax is 72 or 73. Sorry can't remember exactly which year.
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Were there any vehicles from 1987 that have gained any sort of classic status? Don't want to be encouraging smoky old Volvos and crap Peugeot 205s, that's for sure... ;)
They don't have chromed steel bumpers so they can't be classics. In my opinion unit construction motorcycles shouldn't count either. :)
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"unit construction" not even my Vincent , some insurance companys say any car or bike over 15 years old is a classic , and theres some right rubbish coverd in that period
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I'm quite happy to call any vehicle over 15 years old a classic. The first CBR 6's are now classic; every era is a classic to someone.
When Titch Allen etc first formed the VMCC they had a strick cut off point; perhaps that date and policy should be reintroduced eh ;)
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Yes it should. Who, on a 15 year old Jap sportsbike, would be happy at riding out with a load of pre-war bikes? I don't see that's enjoyable for anyone, and the VMCC in trying to be all things to all men, have potentially spoilt it. The older bikes won't bother to come as they can't keep up with the 15 year old bikes, and the Jap riders will give it a miss as the older bikes will be too slow. The worst of all worlds for everyone.
If someone had one of those 'orrible 'Onda CBRs there must be better clubs to join or rides to ride, surely?
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I respect all veiwpoints and enjoy all motorcycles from flat tankers to; how did you put it "orrible Onda CBRs"
I don't think the VMCC have spoint any thing; quite the contrary. The bigger the motorcycle lobby the louder the voice.
Demarkation failed in the past. Why should it work with motorcycles now????
Or do you think the anti motorcycle lobby will only legislate motorcycles made after 1929 off the road? ::)
Have you thought of giving up bikes altogether and taking up stamp collecting?
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I respect all veiwpoints and enjoy all motorcycles from flat tankers to; how did you put it "orrible Onda CBRs"
I don't think the VMCC have spoint any thing; quite the contrary. The bigger the motorcycle lobby the louder the voice.
Demarkation failed in the past. Why should it work with motorcycles now????
Riders do it naturally; Harley owners don't ride out with the Power Rangers, flat-tankers don't hang out with scooters, etc etc. It's wherever our personal interest lies. However, that's nothing to do with lobby groups and the power they wield, and that's another issue entirely.
Or do you think the anti motorcycle lobby will only legislate motorcycles made after 1929 off the road? ::)
Have you thought of giving up bikes altogether and taking up stamp collecting?
I'm talking about the various "groupings" within motorcycling not necessarily working well together on runs etc (as would be entirely possible under the 15 year rule) and you're on comments about legislation ?
Oh well... ???
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My earlier comments were a little tongue in cheek. I think that they are my personal criteria though for even considering a machine to be a 'classic' that appeals to me.
I do indeed think that the VMCC should have stuck with older stuff, even though it would have kept them smaller. I feel that their focus has become diluted and that they should have called a halt at some time in the mid-1950s, perhaps with an exemption for bikes that were already in production.
I certainly didn't rush to join the VMCC when my Commando became 25, it just seemed too modern and too fast to be relevant to the organisation. I did join when I finally got a 1930s bike (which of course wouldn't have been eligible when the VMCC was first founded).
Is the VMCC lobbying in Europe ? I have the impression that the pooling with the old car clubs in the FBHVC is more relevant.
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Just applied for a tax disc on-line for my Sunbeam S7 with no MoT.
All seems to work.
Just have to wait for the disc in the post.
don
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I just got TAX for my 1955 Zundapp Bella which is in bits at the back of the garage and my 1951 Sunbeam S8 which had a first registered date 1979. One of the reasons this rule was introduced is to sort out all those old log books that have been tucked away for years.
The classifications on the V5's must be changed from Motorcycle to Historic and have to be sent away for replacement. That can only be done when you apply for road TAX which means you must have valid insurance. The Historic class makes the vehicle MOT exempt not just the date, there is already an MOT exempt system in place. If the DVLA suddenly put a time limit on date exemption and you don't insure and tax your old bikes and cars you could find the log books obsolete unless they have Historic entered in vehicle type already. If not read paragraph 2 and go round again, it's s a vicious-circle.
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"The Historic class makes the vehicle MOT exempt not just the date" are you sure about this ? all historic cars and bikes are mot exempt , even the ones post 1960 but pre 72
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all historic cars and bikes are mot exempt , even the ones post 1960 but pre 72
Tax exempt maybe, but certainly not MoT exempt.
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thats my understanding also , the no mot is only for bikes /cars built before 1st jan 1960 , i have bikes which have historic on the v5c post 1960 and i think these still req the mot
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The way it was explained to me was pre 1960 vehicles have been added to the MOT exemption provided the taxation class is registered as "HISTORIC", not motorcycle, car van, bicycle or other type. If your V5 log book isn't marked historic you will have to change it. They would only let me do that at a DVLA office provided I applied for a tax disc at the same time so I had to show an insurance certificate. That's why I had to go to the DVLA office twice because I took all the usual advise and it wasn't totally correct.
If you apply for a tax disc on line and get refused that's the reason. I just went through the process last Wednesday and Thursday 21-22/11/2012 and had the argument with them. They also said after the next election the rule could be changed and if your log book doesn't have Historic written on it you may not be able to change it until the rules change again.
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So three years later, what was the end result?
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car or bike built pre 1960 requires no mot (unless you are trying to sell the reg) car or bike built pre 1973 or maybe 74 req no tax , you need to prove when the car/bike was built , I had a VW reg in 1960 but proved it was built 1959 via records (this cost 80 euros ) but is now mot and tax exempt .
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car or bike built pre 1973 or maybe 74 req no tax ,.
This is a rolling 40 year rule.
The current rule is that vehicles built before 1st January 1975 qualify for historic road tax, and that will change to pre-'76 vehicles on 1st April 2016.
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-exempt-from-vehicle-tax
You don’t have to pay vehicle tax on vehicles made before 1 January 1975 (known as ‘historic vehicles’).
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You are lucky,out here in greedy Qld,a bike historic rego only saves about $40 year[full reg $240],with all kinds of onerous conditions,if you get caught outside the use rules,you are prosecuted for using an unregd/uninsured machine.Recently the govt offered a log book system of full use on a restricted no of days per year.The whole thing got completely bogged down in collectors/ idiots arguing with each other,all demanding free rego,which was never going to happen[any changes must be revenue neutral says the govt],the clubs couldnt agree on anything,so business as usual.On top of that a safety cert[read mot] is required for any vehicle,even a 1900 De Dion.Imagine the Tapley meter reading on the brakes.1% if you are lucky.And to top all that,clubs with tyre trade sponsorship are trying to get a seven year rule on tyres.Could be worse though.I believe that in Italy,all old vehicles have to be regd/taxed even in a box of bits.Part of the financial crisis bailout package ,i think.Regards John.
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I did not know this was rolling on each year , great
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Only the tax element is rolling on each year the MOT part still remains at pre 1960.
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Re john.k. In New South, the 60 day logbook has been brought in and has been a big bonus for my local club members. We have always been allowed 'maintaince runs' within 10Km of home, and organised club runs/rallys. The logbook allows 60 full days of use (any amounts of trips on that day) in addition to the above, and all this for $52 per year (includes green slip (third party) insurance). I have four bikes on 'Historic rego' so thats 240 days a year I can ride anywhere in the country on my old ones for less than $1.00 per day for rego. That is about ten times around Australia, without hurrying. I don't ride that many days a year even on my modern bikes.
There are some clubs who, for their own reasons, did not join the logbook scheme. My local club has had bikes being brought out of sheds and used much more than they would have been without the logbook. There are so many rides now that I cannot do them all. This has been the best thing to happen since the Government introduced historic rego. I hope it comes to Queensland for you.
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The main sticking point was the $11 charge for an annual logbook.That and getting any kind of consensus between hundreds of 70yr olds with too much time on their hands.Herding cats comes to mind.Regards John.
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Much the same in Victoria, Murdo. A club permit is much, much cheaper than full rego and I can ride whenever and wherever I like as long as I have the log book with me and it's filled in. It doesn't have to be a formal rally, I can ride down to the beach or to the pub for lunch if I wish. Whatever I want to do. Just remember the log book.
The interesting thing is that everyone always overestimates how much they ride. Once you start keeping a log book you're surprised to find how little an individual bike gets used over a year. You might think you ride a lot but once it's divided up between a small collection of bikes (Who has only one?)the number of days an individual bike is out drops remarkably. The logbook system works well, but of course whatever system you have there is always the whingers and moaners plus the shonks who have to dodge the rules no matter how user friendly they are. Human nature I suppose.
Cheers,
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( days an individual bike is out drops remarkably) I have tried this maths puzzle and the result is not good 15.2 miles , I may have a sale in the new year