classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: Kiwi on January 22, 2013, 07:59:19 AM
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Hi all I am new to this forum, my first bike was a bantam 125 rigid I paid $10.00 for when I was a teenager in the 70's and had a few bikes after that, a matchless 350, T120 bonnie and an assortment of all kinds since.
The reason for my post is I have an urge to restore a vintage bike, I have always wanted a Commando 750 or 850 but I have recently found what I think is a model 88 Norton a 55 or 57 I think. I have never owned or ridden one.
I grew up fixing just about every machine I owned, I can do most of the engine build except the machining, I am in the abrasive blasting and painting industry were i have done a number of auto restorations so I am able to do all the welding and paint restoration too. (just for background)
It has been sitting for about 12 years and had been partially restored including chrome, bottom end of motor and brakes etc by the look, however the new chrome has not been looked after and needs doing all over again. The bike is in bits and it is difficult to tell if all is there but I think it may be.
My question is what ball park would you pay for this taking into account all the usual considerations for such a big job?
I am aware its a very open ended question but I am keen to hear some view points from you experienced people.
Thanks in advance for any positive feedback
Regards
Kiwi
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Hi Kiwi,
Hard to give a value without seeing it, but in the condition you describe it is probably at the second bottom rung of the price ladder. Whatever work that has already been done will have to be either redone or carefully checked over, and my experience is that you'll probably find some things that have been done in a very strange way!
So beware. If the price is suitably low (say a quarter of the price of a tidy-looking recently-ridden example), consider it. Spend a couple of hours going over ALL the parts to check what is missing. If it is all there, and it looks like the original condition (before restoration commenced) was good, then you might have a good project.
Avoid paying anything like a high price - it might just give you grief and you'd do better with a running bike that could be tidied as you go. There should be other Model 88s on the market that could give you some idea of how much to pay.
Cheers
Leon
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Thanks Leon
I have to agree with you, I am hoping to go back to the bike soon and will be able to get photos, I did not want to offend the owner with a stupid offer but at the same time some people look up values themselves and try to ask too much as well.
I have looked up similar bikes and they seem to sell for between 11,000 and 15,000 USD so if it is a complete unit in bits and I paid say $2,000 what do you think would be the worst case spend imagining there is only surface rust on the frame and guards, and a full motor and gear box re-build is needed as well as all the stripping cleaning and re-assembly? $5,000+??
Thanks for you feed back and I will post photos when I get them as I am still not quite sure of the age and model type, I do know it was imported from Bali to Australia.
Cheers
Kiwi
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A few years back I rebuilt a Model 50 Norton engine for a mate who bought the bike in Indonesia. It was the most utterly worn out engine I have ever seen to the extent that even the oil pump drive spindle was bent as was the conrod. In the end the only parts of the original engine to be returned to the bike were most of the OHV gear plus the flywheels and driveside crankcase half and even that needed considerable work.
The rest of the bike was in equally parlous state to the extent my mate never finished it as he said it was just an impossible money pit as barely any of it was reusable.
It was obvious the bike had been run in a country where spares or proper service facilities didn't exist and was just battered to death.
We were very impressed that it kept running so long to get in such a state. In many ways it was a good advert on how tough Norton were built but as a bike to rebuild it was a disaster.
Have a good look at your prospective purchase and be prepared to spend a lot of money and find unbelievable problems.
Sorry to be so gloomy but there it is.
Cheers,
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Thanks for that story, I had not thought of the environment the bike could have been in and the wear factor, that gives me a whole new perspective to use when I go back to it.
I guess it would be kind of ok if I could establish some mileage on it? How would you view it at say under 50,000 miles?
Regards
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Unless its all utterly worn out, been stored underwater, or is is a POS, $2000 for any featherbed Norton is an absolute bargain.
If its all there - electrics, carbs, seat, guards, headlamp, handlebars and levers, tank and oiltank and battery box etc then even more so.
What has been chromed ? The tank is the really expensive bit here - you often see them painted, for precisely that reason.
Good Luck !
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The speedo reading is irrelevant. Given the environment the bike has come from and that it's a dismantled basketcase what makes you think the speedo is the original from the bike, that it actually works or that the reading bears any relationship to what the bike has covered?
Is the original speedo cable present? If there's no speedo cable in the pile then how many years was the bike ridden without a working speedo? After all, an mph speedo is pretty useless in Bali.
R's post says it all. Its only worth money if its all there and not an utter ruin. Even then, it ain't worth a lot.
Circumstances require the Balinese to run their machinery beyond all limits we consider acceptable. Don't be surprised if your basketcase shows this. Inspect it carefully and make your offer accordingly.
Cheers,
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Yes I see your points Guys, the mufflers, header pipes, primary cover and wheels are all new chrome, one muffler is fine but all the rest have surface rust, the wheels need stripping and re-chrome, There are boxes that I have not had the chance to pull apart, but the oil tank is there with surface rust only and will not go to holes by the look. I have seen the head and barrel but not a close inspection, I haven't seen things like the valve guides, mag, carby, pistons or cam etc yet, the speedo cable is connected and the amp meter is missing out of the headlight.
I understand one can get aftermarket barrels with a more robust skirt and some other parts are available new also?
The fuel tank I am told is in original condition but I have not seen that yet as it was stored in a different place, I hope this means they realised its worth!
I will get back to the owner for a visit and if the bike looks as complete as they claim then I would pay the asking, 2k
I will come back and post photos as soon as I can, you guys have been a great help
Thanks heaps
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I wouldn't pay that for an Asian basket-case. I echo the previous posts, in that people in the Far East might not polish turds but they can certainly roll them in glitter for the Westerners with too much money, to buy.
Apart from the "worn beyond redemption" scenario, have you considered that if it was an "easy" rebuild it would have been done and sold for more?
Avoid, would be my advice.
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I had an 88 once, very reliable, steered well, must have used it for 5 years. Paid 5 pounds for it.
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Indeed I am taking it all in, I still plan to ask for a couple of hours to spread everything out and look closely at it all and then with all these comments in mind I will make a choice doing my best to resist the temptation to just buy it!
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ive got one now (slim line) a project when i bought it and it had a triumph engine fitted to make it the worse triton i have ever seen , managed to buy a complette engine ,g box and primary at staford 3 years ago £500 but still have yet to start on rebuild (one day) i payed £700 for the complette machine about 4 years ago . Im looking at the rebuild costing @£2000 thats with doing all i can myself
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I have just had a conversation with the owner and it seems the bike was owned in Indonesia by an expat who shipped it back to Aussie about 15 years ago and it was running then, also the primary pipes and mufflers were purchased at some time brand new and they are not re-chromed at all. I have to say they looked very good except for the rust spotting. I am also told the gearbox has been fully rebuilt, but I will see if condensation has been at it this weekend.
Will post the photos when I get them.
Cheers
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Before you do anything irredeemable with the rusty chrome, just try polishing it up gently with well-worn stainless steel wool - well worn so it has no sharp edges, and thus will not scratch. A wipeover with panel-beaters phosphoric acid (rust remover) and amazing what can be done.
Not if its deeply pitted with rust, though.
Of course, you have to own it first...
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Yeah thanks for tip, I guess especially if it is original chrome, and yes I am almost doing the work in my head already! Best I focus on the ownership bit first.....
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Just talked with the owner and I am going to look at/get it Saturday, she tells me some people who have looked at it think it is a 1963, but I thought from my research they stopped making the model 88 in 1957? It has apparently got matching serial numbers R727272 so I am told. The pipes mufflers and seat were all purchased new from Birmingham at an aftermarket shop in 1992. The bike was brought to Butterworth Air force base Malaysia by a British flyer and sold to a Malaysian businessman who on sold it to the current owner for 600 ringgit, she has the receipt and it was running when she brought it back to Aussie, don't get me wrong I haven't forgotten the comments on its potential life as an UN-loved bike but its not a bad story and it has been worked on by a restoration bloke not too far from me.
How long did the model 88 get produced for in the 500cc?
What info do I need to provide for the answer?
Cheers
Kiwi
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One more question,
I note I am shown as an advanced user, I am curious as a newbie to your forum why I would be called advanced, is it my advancing years! ;D
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look here numbers http://www.classicbike.biz/Norton/Maintenance/NortonEngineNumbers.htm
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Thanks for that, I guess I will need to see for my self as I don't see a match on the list.
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You need to take a careful note of the engine numbers, and compare to that list - for year and model.
Also the frame number, on featherbeds stamped vertically near your left foot.
122 is the prefix code for a Model 88, could be from 1951 to somewhere in the mid 1960s.
Wouldn't be the first time seller thought it was a 54 wideline, and turned out to be a 68 Atlas.
Or something somewhere in between... !!
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Thanks very much gents, I am seeing on Sunday am, will get those photos and numbers.
By the way would you guys be interested in a link to see the flight of a Dehavilland Mosquito that has been getting re-built built in New Zealand over the last 5 or 6 years I have just watched the clip as it was flying in my old home town? I know its not on topic and I don't want to encourage a telling off by the moderator but it is the first one to fly since 1992 I think.
Cheers
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Just did a "Google" search re the Mosquito ..brilliant video !
Thanks for the "headsup" .
Used to be friendly with one of the last remaining Mosquito Pilots flying in Coastal Command .
Best of luck with the Norton .
Regards,
Steve...
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Great to hear you enjoyed it Steve, I was sure there would interest.
I have a good friend who is an engine builder at Ardmore airport in Auckland where the Mosquito was re-built and he has taken me to the Mosquito hanger from time to time to see the progress during construction over the years, I don't know the guys personally but it has been really neat to see it all happening. Ardmore is the base for many of the WWII War Birds aircraft and they perform famous displays at Wanaka in the south Island of NZ every second year at Easter.
Cheers
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had this in the shed for a very long time , very interesting history but is new as was never used , still has a fabric covering stuck on , for a 60hp moth @1929 i think , thought i might collect the rest of the plane but got interested in bikes (thank god)
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There is no question the bikes have saved you!! I have spent a bit of time in aviation and keeping the new ones going is hard enough without restoring an old girl!
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it was the air worthy ness side that stopped me going any further , a good freind over here (rip jeff richarson , used to race in the 50/60s ferrari ) had his planes grounded and they where never flowen again , as for cost , once the bike diesese caught a hold i dont think theres much in it , as i have to admit it did get out of control when i found a fondness for ohc singles , now cured and just enjoying what i have .
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Hi,
Norton Dominator Model 88
Cop this article http://www.classicmotorcycle.co.uk/articles/2012-03/norton-dominator-model-88 (http://www.classicmotorcycle.co.uk/articles/2012-03/norton-dominator-model-88)
....."but it didn’t do the sporty twin justice, and in 1952, the Dominator gained the McCandless duplex frame that had hitherto only featured on the racers. The new machine was named the Model 88 Dominator De Luxe to differentiate it from the previous model, with a garden gate frame), – which remained available until 1955 – and it was instantly apparent that here was a unique combination of looks, performance and handling".
Also this..http://www.realclassic.co.uk/norton05031400.html (http://www.realclassic.co.uk/norton05031400.html)
http://nortondominator88.com/ (http://nortondominator88.com/) I hate the term collectors motorcycle aargh, they make them sound like bubble gum cards!
The 88 Dominator looks a together machine, nicely styled, perhaps the nicest of the Norton pre-Commando twins?
Cheers
JBW
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Actually, the "Dominator Deluxe" name distinguished it from the new swingarm frame ( with the single downtube) , since the gardengate (plunger rear suspension) frame had just been retired into history. But we won't quibble over names and ancient history...
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R,
Extract from article! If they are wrong, put them right, otherwise incorrect information, just keeps circulating round
However, from genuine publications of 1951, Norton prices can be seen against the competition.
I do know a little, about presumably, the 88s predecessor, the Model 7 Dominator, built 1949 mainly for the export market in Australia & the U.S. of A for cruising @ sustained high average speeds, plunger-type rear suspension, Roadholder front forks, 497cc, (66 x 72.6mm), 29.5bhp @ 6,200rpm Gear ratios: 14.88, 8.85, 6.05, 5. Tank 3.3/4 gallons, weight 438lbs, Price 1951, £232.8s.2d including Purchase Tax & a speedo;
The competition:
Triumph Speed twin, 498cc, £199.7s.10d;
Triumph 6T Thunderbird, 649cc, £208.5s.8d;
Vincent Black Shadow,998cc, £381, dead.
BSA Golden Flash, 648cc, £203.4s;
Ariel 4G Square4,997cc,£260.7s;
Matchless Super Clubman, 498cc, £234.19s;
Pricewise BSA were the thorn in Triumph's side!
Now you can see why Turner must have rubbed his hands together with glee when he moved to BSA! Old rivalries never die! Not sure, whether his heart was ever in Armoury Road, as stated in publications, amongst other things he tipped the Gold Star off its pedestal for starters.
Cheers
JBW
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OK gents here goes, I have just spent an hour or two going over it, I am not sure how many photos will be accepted hopefully I have reduced the files sizes enough with out making them hard to see.
What I can see missing thus far of real importance are; pistons and pins (good ones), Dizzy cap is cracked, header retainers, headlight chrome retainer, and what ever else you may see.
Is it possible to get new valves, springs and seats? Pistons an rings I guess are not too hard? new barrel assuming the old one doesn't mic up?
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Frame numbers match etc, I have added some more photos.
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Everything is available for Nortons, new or used.
Cylinders may require sleeving if they are too far worn though.
Is there more than 1 bike here, seems to have 2 tanks and things. ?
Numbers seem to indicate a 1962 Model 88, 500cc, a slimline - although pics don't show much frame detail.
Don't show the cylinderhead detail either, if this is an 88SS then a rolling chassis already = $2000 is looking rediculously low...
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R,
Extract from article! If they are wrong, put them right, otherwise incorrect information, just keeps circulating round
Very few options to correct errors in published articles.
Since errors are almost inevitable unless proofread properly.
Norton buyers must have been loyal buyers at those prices. And weights !
Model 7 (plunger frame version) was 440 lbs+ fully fuelled and oiled.
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Yes there are two oil tanks, a spare front hub but it is in a bad way and there are some for components and the tree assy in bits.
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whoops forgot these photos
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R, your quote from Johny Boy has gone over my head I'm afraid can you elaborate?
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Best Cylinder head and barrel shot I have
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R, I think I get your meaning now thanks.
I see Model 88s on the net but there seem to be some subtle differences on them all, I wonder if the tank is true to model? I note the smaller Norton name plates for this tank are quite different to models in articles albeit that I haven't been able to find an exact 1961 model picture to compare yet.
As always something is only worth what someone is prepared to pay in this kind of thing and the money is not my main aim, I wanted to be sure I wasn't just going to swap locations of a basket case from their shed to my shed.
I would be most appreciative if I could find a picture of the exact model so I can restore to "factory condition" including paint and all.
Cheers
Kiwi
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It seems to me the tank is the issue, it looks to either be off a 61 ES2 or a model 99? and the seat is not right either I think.
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I found one for sale, a used runner at auction, In Melbourne of all places, black and white and looks the same, a 61 slimline, not as nice a looking bike as some but it seems I have found an original.
Thanks so much for all the feed back I have had, I plan to go for it and make it factory like.
Cheers all
Kiwi
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Kiwi,
I think what R was saying was there was more frames than the Garden Gate & dual front-tubed McCandless designed Featherbed, it could be my fault, I could have misread the article, often motorcycle stuff is not written that clearly.
However, personally, I am never sure about stated,(published,) originality of machines at certain periods of time in firms, manufacturing history, especially when models where in a transitional period & especially when bikes where exported models, as they often differed from "cooking" more bland, less "blingy" Home market stuff.
However, you have the history of the machine, but especially, after the War factories were notorious for using up parts on certain batches, post -war Government restrictions often dictated slight changes & of course owners often changed & upgraded machines with, better options, sometimes later parts from the factory or specialist after-market stuff. The main thing non-originality hurts is value on resale & also as a talking point at meets from knowledgeable experts!
Norton Owners Club is this best place & I suspect R is a member.
Photographs are brilliant, looks like a good purchase, for me sometimes originality can be a bettered, but it depends on what you want and if you want it 100% original, go for it. \the main thing is to have FUN!
Cheers
JBW
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Thanks Johny-boy I can see where you are coming from completely and I am getting a little hooked on the allure of it all, I think I have found a good project though and I will stay true to factory on this one. I have just heard of a bloke who wants to sell 9 bikes of various makes, don't know what yet but I may have to chain myself down before I need a bigger shed! and we all need a bigger shed already!
I am hoping R has more to say he has been very helpful as have you all.
Cheers
kiwi
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This is the model I plan to use as my example to follow, any thoughts?
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Kiwi,
Drab greys and greens were often used, because there was a dearth of this colour after the War, so the factories saved money buying the paint at cheap rates. Remember, it was export or die, only a few, (limited by Government), big machines were allowed for the Home market.
If the War had continued that paint, would have been on tanks, armoured carriers & Battle ships!
Before you definitely make your mind up, look @ some of the colours used on Export only machines over the years. Foreign Agents, used bright colours to tempt the punters in, after 6/7 years of war, the last thing most riders wanted was a Khaki or green machine!
By the way have you got Gandi, with you in the garage? I wondered where he had got to! Joking aside, good photos'.
Cheers
JBW
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Yep Gandhi is were I get my inner parts, when I told him I was after a Norton he said I should "get one with everything"!!
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Slimline Nortons in the early 1960s had a choice of a number of colors in the brochures - black and what is described as "dove grey" but is really a pale cream color, and red and dove grey, green and dove grey and blue and dove grey. While in theory each of these color choices were limited to a few specific models, apparently the factory would paint any bike any color if requested - and you could wait. Bit tricky with export bikes, of course. Didn't take long before silver tanks and chromed guards came along, along with other chromed bits.
By the time it got into the Commando era, quite a range of colors was available, including some big chunky metalflake options.
Those 'Norton' slimline tank badges can be hard to find - they are chomed diecast (zinc), and tend to deteriorate and crumble with age.
Decals make a fair substitute until you find a good set, if you didn't get any ?
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Kiwi,
Drab greys and greens were often used, because there was a dearth of this colour after the War, so the factories saved money buying the paint at cheap rates.
I think that's taking the "we were so poor..." a bit too far. Those colours were used because they were considered fashionable at the time, just as clothes, house paint colours, etc were similarly drab (to our eyes).
Styles change, different markets open up and so paint schemes changed.
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To an extent....
I disagree Rex, post-war ,the factories were stretched, they were not allowed to finish parts off in bright metals because of government restrictions, everything was calculated down to the last half-penny, you only have to read what Hopwood & Irving were writing at the time. OK, the further we get from WW2, the less chance of a drab paint job, but ex- WD supply paint was a penny pinching saver, brighter colours costs more to purchase. The only other thing that is in their favour, (greys & greens), is it is a recognised fact that drab colours age better that bright ones in the sun/weather, your forgetting Rex, you were watching a black & white telly & this distorts our memories of the colour spectrum!
Every penny saved went into Norton's race efforts, did you see a drab Factory racer? No!
The only reason also in fashion, that there was not as much colour, is that clothes costs more about this time, if you start using exotic coloured fabrics! A grey pairs of bloomers would have been a right turn-on!
Orwell, wouldn't have written 1984 if his Vincent had been a brighter colour! By the way, have you seen the old film 1984, made in 1956, I think, with all the D series enclosed Vincent motorcycles used by the Security Forces, of Big Brother, catch it on YouTube!
Cheers
John
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R- I did get the die cast tank Badges and they look in quite good condition, just need re-chrome.
As to Paint; I am aware from some involvement with restoration and paint work for vintage car clubs and others that immediately post war there was still a "you can have any colour you like as long as it is what we give you" approach, this was partially due to "war" stock and availability.
Re-constituting large quantities of colours already made for war machinery was not possible and management would not or could not just throw anything away especially after what had gone on.
Mixing existing paint colours would have given a pretty standard Poo brown. It is fair to say the old paint had to be used up and there would have been a hugely disproportionate amount of those war colours compared to a normal war free era this would have included Black and White.
Paint in significant part included large quantities of lead and chromates and I believe this had a big baring on availability until nearing the 50's and then it seamed to be a long time before public demand for vibrant colours caused manufactures to change . on top of all this JBW has a point, Pigment was hard to get and expensive (still is expensive) although I don't think UV had such an effect in those days.
UV has become an issue for two main reasons, the UV became stronger into the 70's and beyond, paint technology was forced to change away from lead and chromates which were champion at UV resistance but rather lethal. The new paint products struggled to defend against UV in their early development years and they were being developed from the early the sixties in some Countries (there is a whole raft of variances due to different Countries policy etc).
All in all it is a very subjective and mostly circular discussion.
Putting my old WWII helmet on now in anticipation of a response....
Cheers
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Hi,
The mystery with this site is, I post early morning before doing work &" husbandly duties", a phrase picked up from the native "Kentings", I now live with/ in the County & the post appears on the site and says 11.04am? Does this just happen on Mondays?
The British factories,from what I have read/gleaned talking to others, were unfortunately slow to respond, Norton in particular, Primary Chain Case, inadequate Final Drive Chain, I suspect this was due to " dyed in the wool" Management attitudes and the Accountants, being held to account! One thing that didn't help, was the Americans passing Legislation moving the gear change to the left-hand side of the machine, (sometime in the 70s I think), duh! a supposedly safety issue, however in the 80s, I coped with having a Honda & a BSA on the road at the same time, ( where have all the good times gone?), I had no problems & I am cack-handed!
Incidentally, when riding both bikes on the same day, as a direct comparison, I believe, WE for once had it right, I personally always felt that having the front-handlebar brake on the right and the rear foot- brake on the left was a far better balanced & safer arrangement, when in motion, riding & so did the Italians in the early days, does the brake lever effect the rider that much, when stationary ? After all riding on he Right was a Anti-British or were we Anti-French, political gesture wasn't it & riding on the wrong side, sorry I mean on the right side of the road, (Freudian slip there) was an early schism in the way things were done!
Paint's a bugbear and a constant irritation to me personally! The Morris Minor is a good case to point in how colours weather.
As for paints , we are now faced with paints that do not do what they say on the tin, Lead-based paints, Marine Zinc-based Anti-Fouling paints were all out-lawed, then cellulose- based Automotive paints, I live in a seaside town so I have first-hand knowledge of corrosion. And finally the corner-stone of the Home restorer, Finnigan'sHammerite was taken over by ICI & they will not tell you what's in it, because I rang them up in Teeside and it was a very evasive in giving answers to my questioning and it, (new Hammerite) doesn't seem to resist petro-chemicals any more, so WE need some input on paints, the best and where to get old supplies from, which work as a protective coat.
Because, I wasted my time painting and trying to lacquer a K75, through the inter-reactivity of the base paints and the unwillingness of the paints to protect my investment and not resist unleaded!
Cheers
John
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I painted cars in the last century and brought all my left over cellulose, 2 pack, acrylic, etc with me to spain. built a concrete shed in the shade BUT in 25 years many tins have burst with the 44C temperature . If I had lined the walls with canvases I could have sold them as modern art. What primer can I buy today that will take cellulose? Enamel coachpaint is still usable and I paint toy cars with it.
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Let me research it!
Cheers
JBW
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Hello Gents
I have been out of town for a few days, I note your interest in better coatings, I can tell you a few things about paint coatings, the chemical structure and performance/limitations.
JBW I see you live near the ocean and I see Wink has 44c temps to deal with.
My first comment with paint sounds like a caveat but in reality it is just how it is; when it comes to paint and premature failure the answer to your problems always starts with an "It depends".
I am not a chemist or laboratory technician, I have simply been involved in the protective coatings industry with my own company for the last 30 years or so, my company in New Zealand was supplying abrasive blasting and industrial coatings to many heavy industrial factories, power stations, hydro and Geothermal, not to leave out the forestry industry, Timber mills and processing plants, Volcanic environments and coastal sites. Along with the fore-mentioned my own factory had many vintage car,truck and motorcycle parts go through our blasting and painting process. I have a fair knowledge of aviation specialist coatings and am very familiar with all abrasive blast media and its application from structural steel to aircraft components.
I had good results over the years with industrial coatings that we cross linked from the heavy industry into automotive, There are many many scenarios and factors that influence the paint you buy and the application technique you use not withstanding the dreaded premature failure or seemingly unexplainable failure for no apparent reason.
Over the years I have done inspection and remedial repair work on various coating failures and have close ties with some coating manufacturers. I am now based in Australia setting up a new company doing the same kind of work but more involved in Automotive transport refinishing. We are one of the few companies who apply industrial coatings to certain automotive applications
Without getting any more long winded I have stated my background solely to establish some security to any advice I may try to give if you are interested in my comments, it may seem strange that I would say this but it is much easier to assist if I can with some helpful comments relating to specific questions. This forum has been very helpful to me and I would enjoy giving something back as time allows.
I have looked at a few forums relating to paint issues with application in the Automotive sector to see if I could point you in a direction that would be helpful, however due to many posts being trial and error based advice I think it unwise to get you to follow them.
So firstly Wink, Nitro Cellulose is quite moisture sensitive like car bog/filler so if you got 25 years out of some tins you have done 23 years better than its expiry date, but to answer your question the latest acrylic enamels (2k) that replaced the Cellulose are now excellent products for toys etc and the primer used for them is usually referred to as a 1k primer, obviously both of these are two pack and quite expensive especially for small mixes. Cellulose will bond to 1k primer. If you could be a little more specific about your batch mixing sizes and the substrates your toys etc are made from I may be able to give you base paint compounds that would help you find the right supplier and not the most expensive one.
JBW, the sea side does create a few issues but to be honest the most likely problem if you are experiencing premature failure will be in the preparation, application and environmental effects during the process.
I do want to be sure you gents want this kind of comment from me and if you might find my rabbiting on helpful? So If you could give me specific scenarios you are having problems with I am happy to comment.
I do know painting can get personal so I invite your questions rather than run off at the mouth to soon.
Kind Regards
Kiwi
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Kiwi,
Any information would be useful, we can open up a new thread soon about paints!
Many thanks
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OK JBW, I will set down some do's and don't s 101 and start a new thread soon. It would be very helpful if you could name usual paint suppliers in the UK or where ever so I can cross reference to them where possible as there are so many suppliers in the world selling the same generic paints under different banners.
Cheers
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Kiwi,
OK! I will find out what I can, trouble is these days they keep selling companies off to new, often hidden ownership, until you do some digging round, you do not know who owns what!
Cheers
JBW!
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Yes JBW you are so right! just find me the paint name and its type IE; 1k, 2k, epoxy, vinyl etch, poly urethane, aliphatic urethane, alkyd, and so on. Tell me what the brand names are and what you need to paint so I can relate to them in discussion.
I can send a list of generics that your paint supplier would know how to compare with their own. but mostly I think the best help I can be is in the preparation and application coupled with film builds etc.
Then just bombard me with questions and I will try to answer them!
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JBW Have you heard of W&J Leigh & Co (Leigh Paints)?
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Can any body tell me if Norton produced the Dominators with chrome guards and primary cover as standard around 1961? I have noticed chrome under the paint on this one, by the way I have purchased it!
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Kiwi,
Internet Search
As of 1-Jan-2013, Leighs Paints is now trading as Sherwin-Williams Protective & Marine Coatings. Sherwin-Williams is committed to provide the same quality service that we have for more than 150 years. Soon, our coatings will be delivered in new packing, but the quality of product in the can – and the level of service outside it – will not change. Importantly, you will benefit from the availability of the expanded portfolio of Sherwin-Williams Protective & Marine Coatings going forward. We look forward to continuing to work with you in the future as your trusted coatings partner.
Sherwin-Williams Protective & Marine Coatings
Registered in England Reg Number: 893081
Reg Office: Tower Works, Kestor Street, Bolton BL2 2AL England
150-year-old Leighs Paints sold to Sherwin-Williams Company
Industrial paint manufacturer Leighs Paints has been sold to US giant Sherwin-Williams Company for an undisclosed sum after more than 150 years under family ownership
Industrial paint manufacturer Leighs Paints has been sold to US giant Sherwin-Williams Company for an undisclosed sum after more than 150 years under family ownership.
Bolton-based Leighs employs 260 staff and has operations in Germany, Canada, India and the Middle East.
Chairman Brian Leigh-Bramwell said: “This outstanding company has been a part of my family for the past 151 years.
“I am confident this decision will be of great benefit to both companies and our customers well into the future.”
Turnover for 2009 was £31.2m. The firm reported pre-tax losses of £1.4m for the period due to raw material price pressures and heavy investment in product development and new facilities at its Bolton site.
Sherwin-Williams is a global coatings manufacturer supplying industrial, commercial and retail customers, with a turnover of more than £4.8bn.
Chris Connor, Sherwin-Williams' chairman and chief executive, said: “We are very pleased to bring Leighs Paints, a well-respected company, and their employees into the Sherwin-Williams family.
“Combined, our two companies have nearly three centuries of experience in coatings innovation.
“This is another positive step in our strategy of steady growth and¿ expansion through quality products and people who provide excellent customer service.
“This acquisition reaffirms our strategic commitment to growing globally.”
Sherwin-Williams is based in Cleveland, Ohio and has brands including Ronseal.
George Heath, president of Sherwin-Williams Global Finishes Group, said: “This acquisition is another important step in our efforts to strengthen our growing global platform.”
That may be the end of them in Blighty, Foreign firms often take -over firms here & wind up the acquisition, shifting production elsewhere, I hope that's not going to be the case, Leigh Paints is in Bolton Lancashire, they were famous for supplying the paint for the Firth of Fourth bridge in Scotland.
Not sure of any Brand Names they might of used.
Cheers
John
JBW
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JBW- Would it be fair to say most people would not normally look to a company like Leigh Paints for their automotive paint needs?
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Kiwi,
Unsure @ the moment, however, their stuff must have been good re- its application on the famous Firth of Fourth bridge, which is exposed to the harshest of conditions.
I will talk to a mate who sprays up stuff, I will additionally look up their products in a Restorer's Handbook.
Cheers
JBW
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JBW, I am trying to establish an easily identified supplier for guys in the UK to identify with, then I will make some suggestions as to what baseline products I would use and why. I would like to put together a simple paper that triggers interest and gives simple explanations for anyone to consider before they paint their treasured restoration.
After people have had the chance to read what I suggest some will be enlightened and some will no doubt challenge my opinion which should make for a fun debate!
Your feed back is greatly appreciated thanks
Kiwi
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By the way does anyone have an idea as to the chrome work ex factory in the sixties? I posted a photo of a Model 88 that has chrome guards, was this the norm ex factory at any point?
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I will ask A.Dixon for you.
Cheers
JBW
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Can any body tell me if Norton produced the Dominators with chrome guards and primary cover as standard around 1961? I have noticed chrome under the paint on this one, by the way I have purchased it!
Congratulations !
Export and home market bikes can vary, considerably, in the finish. Chrome bits were becoming quite common even in the early 60s.
The NOC can possibly look it up in the factory records and advise - but of course previous owners could have done anything with it in the past 40 years. Depending on where it was delivered to new, some Dealers also added to the bling in the showroom...
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Cheers for that, I have decided in my mind that my bike had chrome guards!
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Kiwi,
Additionally, there was the mysterious Norton Manxman built & exported having slightly different spec's and more chrome, most parts if not all would have been inter-changeable and this model definitely had more chrome & according to perceived wisdom, was fitted with chromium plated mudguards.
Cheers
JBW
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Indeed, that is all the justification I need, Chrome guards it is!
I have a lockable throttle (twist grip) there is a key on the twist grip, is this standard? Its the first one I have seen all the bikes I remember just had lockable steering on the fork tree.
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Lockable throttle is most definitely an accessory fitting.
Two-tone painted tanks and chromed mudguards don't go together, when you look at the brochure pics from back then.
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Norton Manxman pictures
You can clearly see the chrome guards I thinkI know someone in the NOC who has all the code Numbers used for the production of every Norton @ Bracebridge Street.
Bright & a little bit more bling, than a standard Dominator!
Cheers
JBW
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Was the Manxman ever produced in 500cc? the one in the brochure and photos strike a remarkable resemblance to my new acquisition and I note that it appears at least as if the guards were chrome before they were white (the wrong white at that) I understand this could mean nothing with more than few years under its belt!
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No - the Manxman was only ever a 650cc, in blue with small tank, high handlebars and orange/red seat.
It was about the first to get chrome guards - mostly for the US market of course.
All featherbed dommies look somewhat the same at first glance - without knowing the engine numbers its tough to tell them apart.
Apart from slimline or wideline frames and various features over the years.
Or counting fins....
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Kiwi,
I have sent an email to request codes.
Cheers
JBW
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Thanks R
I am catching on, I pulled the primary and right side chain covers off the engine last night and mechanically the old girl looks pretty sound wear and tear wise but the nuts and bolts on things like the Generator, Dizzy and other external fittings are well worn out so I guess there has been a lot of tinkering to keep the bike running. I also see plenty of brake drum wear etc too, all quite consistent with some earlier advice given regarding bikes from the Asian regions. In saying all of this the bike has good bones and deserves a re-build.
It seems the old owner has had the front and rear brakes done, (but they didn't skim the hubs!) the gear box has had a re-bearing as well as the bottom end of the engine, I guess I am still going to have to strip the motor though as it was not well covered and the barrels were not fitted.
Thanks JBW! I look forward to it.
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Kiwi,
I think it was the American Importers who wanted the Norton 650cc Export machine, Christened the Manxman!
Excelsior fans wouldn't have been happy with it, really it was a bling, "Califoniased", "Sunny state" Norton Dominator, less like the Isle of Man machines you couldn't imagine, small semi- peanut-ised tank and high bars, they should have called it the "Wildman" !
If they had have brought out a wide-line version "Cafe-Racerised" version, with clip-ons, big alloy tank, rear-sets, half-fairing, low lean lines, contoured seat, & tucked up Sports exhaust & silencer, then the name would have made sense to the British Norton fans, but that's marketing for you. It does look more like what "Johnny" would have ridden if the "Wild Ones" had been re-jigged to the late 50s or early 60s! A proper well thought out, Flat-Tracker/Desert Crosser, would have made more sense to be marketed in the States in the USA that had more sun, than rain!
Probably built trying trying to cash-in on the fringes of the Custom-era, pre-Easy Rider era!
Cheers
John
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John
I think your analogy is fair, it is interesting to note that even now the popularity of British machines made in the original styles for the UK and Europe are more popular than the ones made for the USA. Triumph only made slight customisations for the Bonneville America by comparison with the Manxman by the looks and yet if you compare two triumph Bonneville's one from the USA and one from the UK built for the UK the Brit bike fetches a premium.
Personally I have over the years considered buying a Bonneville to re-live some of my youth but have shied away from the "America" for the very reason that its just not the same!
BTW I was at Reno a few years ago at the Air Races and met a bloke who was helping us on an aircraft that had two team Triumph Daytona's that came straight of the race track in the 70's and went right into storage at his hangar, they are still on the crates they left the race track on! (a little off topic I know).
Cheers
Eryn
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over here (uk) usa versions fetch a higher price
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A proper well thought out, Flat-Tracker/Desert Crosser, would have made more sense to be marketed in the States in the USA that had more sun, than rain!
There was the Atlas (750cc) Scrambler model in the early 1960s.
Whether it was well thought out or not. ?
Take a strong man to tame that in full cry....
And the later series of Norton N15CS's, Rangers, P11, P11A.
(and the 1950s Nomad models).
So someone was thinking of these things back then.
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Can anyone recommend a suitable workshop manual that will be comprehensive enough to re-build my bike? Something that will cover in detail standard bore sizes, ring gaps, bearing tolerances, gear box etc would be good, I have seen a number of "do it yourself" manuals on line but I have had an experience with ordering one and it being woefully inadequate for a car engine I was re-building.
I am finding it difficult to remove the front forks especially releasing the the split rings on the tree that holds the main spear of the shock. I am concerned I may break the rings by wedging the gap.
Cheers
Kiwi
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there may be a language issue here with some manuals and the terms used over there , clymer is your best bet
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I am finding it difficult to remove the front forks especially releasing the the split rings on the tree that holds the main spear of the shock. I am concerned I may break the rings by wedging the gap.
I'm guessing you're referring to releasing the fork tubes/stanchions from the bottom yoke by using a wedge to open the lower yoke slightly?
Go for it, the yokes are malleable iron and will give the required few thou to release the grip. As said by others, treat yourself to a Clymer or Haynes, both would cover this sort of procedure in depth, although if you need in-depth rebuilding info, go for an original workshop manual reprint.
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Kiwi,
norton bob wrote on: http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=458507 (http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=458507)
See thread;
"The Haynes manual is around (with a few errors ,gearbox,wiring,etc),the Norton books are poor .......,"
As Rex says the other firm is Clymer, rubber/brass mallet, wood, some soft-rags, good large screw-driver type implement to carefully open-out the clamping section, plenty lubricant WD40 type to facilitate release, sounds like something''s giving birth...!
This still may be the case about literature, but try..!
htt'p://www.nortonownersclub.org/ (http://htt'p://www.nortonownersclub.org/), see Book list.
I bet Classic Bike, Classic Mechanics have done a few articles though, also there must be some vid's around, try You Tube, to talk to Brits you may be have to use our names, Top yoke, clamps nearest to the handle bars; bottom,(lower) yoke, is the one with with attached steering-head stem.
Cheers
JBW
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Thanks all
My terminology left a bit to be desired!
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Got my new Haynes manual today and embarking on the stanchions tonight!
I thought I would start another thread on painting as previously discussed so load up your questions and I'll see if I can help out!
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I have discovered the bore size on my 500cc dominator engine is about 0.030in over the 0.060in piston size!, how far out can I take the bore for currently available pistons if any?
Can the Dominator engine be reliably sleeved?
Can I use a 600cc piston and bore out to 68mm? or is the gudgeon pin location on the piston different on the 600cc variant due to the stroke change needed to achieve 600cc?
If I made the engine a 600cc version how would this be viewed?
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We are confused !
+30 over 60+ on a std 66mm is already bigger than the 600cc's 68 mm bore ??
To get to 600, the crank also needs to be stroked.
And the longer 600cc cylinder fitted to suit.
Yes, dommie cylinders can be sleeved - most of the suppliers have spuncast liners to suit.
Although, if its been bored out a long way, may be getting a bit thin already...
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Oh sorry it does not read well at all.
Basically I have only checked the bore with a vernier and it appears to be 67.31mm, someone has cross hatch honed the cylinders ready for fitting pistons but there are no new pistons with the bike, I have only two very damaged pistons one has 060 just readable I assume 60thou over size.
I am a little confused at the sizes and I need to check my calculations by the look of it, I did refer to a conversion table but maybe I let late night dyslexia intervene! My Haynes book shows sizes in metric and the oversize measurements listed in thousandths of inches, my book tells me a standard bore is 66mm for the 500cc and 68mm for the 600cc, so I have rather confused the two engines in my description and need to only refer to the one I own from now on a 500cc.
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Can you tell me at what bore size should I consider my barrels to be beyond adding a liner? where is the thinnest point in Dominator barrels/cylinders? or what is the largest OD for an available liner to repair my barrels?
What can I expect to pay for new barrels and are there good new options?
Cheers
Kiwi
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Hi JBW
I have pretty much completely stripped the Domi down now and I am looking at purchasing a spares list as soon as I have the head checked out by a machinist.
Is there any one good source of parts?
Do you have people you have had good experiences with buying engine parts in particular?
I have started to put together a painting thread but I am not so sure it is needed as yet by the look of the responses, do you have any thoughts on that?
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Don't let that 'machinist' do ANYTHING to that head until you have at least 10 opinions on it.
More Norton parts have been ruined by folks with good intentions than than than....
Painting is like everything - more opinions than you can count.
A dozen folks would have at least 2 dozen ways to paint the same type of paint !
Let alone the myriads of different paint versions these days.
And as my painting teacher said, good painting is 99% preparation, and then just wave the spraygun at it.
How to spray these new waterbased enamels would be of some interest though.
P.S. If your cylinder is well worn, the base spiggott is where you look to determine if it can be used, or needs sleeving.
Cheers.
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Thanks R
I have just come back from the machinist and the bottom of the skirt is currently 90 thou oversize but from the skirt up it seems the bore will comfortably take 60thou overbore, is this discrepancy what you are talking about?
I am given to understand the lower part of the barrels are a little unstable?
Kiwi
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You are so right about painting and preparation!
Do you have specific issues on water based?
They can be problematic with pigment float or tracking, where you get a mottled look coming up to the surface?
They need to be mixed very gently to avoid foaming.
Are you compelled to use water based?
For small areas sanding epoxies and aliphatic urethane's give sterling results.
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I have just come back from the machinist and the bottom of the skirt is currently 90 thou oversize but from the skirt up it seems the bore will comfortably take 60thou overbore, is this discrepancy what you are talking about?
90 thou ? 60 thou ??
We need better words here to understand quite what is meant here. ???
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Have no experience whatsover with water based enamels.
A 3 sentence summary of whats what with painting them could be useful.
Or even if they are toxic....
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Basically by the time we re-bore the barrels to .060 over size it will leave us with the bottom of the barrel (skirt) that protrudes into the crank case still measuring .090 over size.
The barrel will be cylindrically uniform but for the bottom skirt below the flange where it bolts on to the crank case, this area is slightly more worn.
I guess it is where the piston thrust has worn more than the rest of the cylinder.
Is this a critical issue?
I will get photos to help with interpretation of my wording and post tomorrow
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Automotive waterborne paints are applied much in the same way as any solvent based product with the following notes to keep in mind.
Enamel is just a word used for a paint that doesn't leave brush marks when applied correctly, it does not matter what the chemical basis of the paint is. Enamel is the term used for the old baked enamel look we used to be familiar with and see on cast iron items, stoves, pots and mugs etc.
Don't use waterborne paints through your old solvent spray gun, get an HVLP that is designed for water borne, and don't mix the two types of paint between guns, the waterborne paint will ruin your old gun by attaching its self to minute particles of paint not able to be cleaned out of the glands etc delivering them to your job and your old gun will rust internally.
Waterborne paint has a slightly thinner finish build so will tend to show imperfections in your preparation more so than urethane's or alkyd's (common oil/solvent based paints )
You can't thin your waterborne automotive coating with water, you need the manufacturers thinner/reducer.
You can't clean up with soap and water and you have toxic waste to dispose of with waterborne paint just like any other.
You need lots of airflow and heat to cure a base coat, it will not air dry well in your neck of the woods!
You still need to apply a solvent based clear coat over the water borne base coat, the single pack enamel will have a high gloss but will be moisture sensitive, test your substrate by wiping part of it with a wet cloth (assuming it has not been sandblasted) if the water evaporates dry within ten minutes it is ok to paint it. (same for all painting)
Waterborne automotive paints are only slightly softer when fully cured than solvent based.
Waterborne paint is less toxic than most solvent paints but has toxic compounds in it and should still be treated as toxic, personal protection is just as important when spraying especially.
Waterborne paints have been developed because of the environment and do not necessarily represent the latest technology in adhesion and UV, but represent the latest technology in Waterborne automotive paints in line with the desired reduction of VOC's and paint waste. Waterborne paints main advantage is lack of VOC's released to the atmosphere during application and cure process, apart from that it is made up of mostly the same base materials as solvent based paint.
If you are doing DIY work at home stick to what you know, water borne is not home handyman friendly yet.
Read the instructions and spray as normal, don't buy cheap paint! (mind-you, you probably can't buy cheap water borne!)
I know you said three sentences but this is a restrained as I can be! :D
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R,
I have to confess I have made a bit of a fool of my self with the over size bore comments, I went back to the machinist to get his comments on the bores and he told me I had miss read his notes. The cylinders will re-bore to .060 inch over size, enough said.
One question, It has been suggested to me by a motor cycle restorer shop in Brisbane that I should try to get GPM pistons if possible rather than Hepolite, are you familiar with GPM's? and is the advice well founded in your view? the shop rep seemed to think the GPM's were superior as they were made with better materials, I know nothing about either.
Regards
Kiwi
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I had a set of GPM's in a Triumph twin. Seemed OK (made in Italy if I remember right) but I'd have Hepolites through choice as they've always been good in my experience. Just my opinion though.
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There has been discussion of Hepolites lately.
They are now made in Taiwan, (formerly known as ____ ?) and someone bought the Hepolite name to add to them.
If the shop has good experience of GPMs, they have been around a while.
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P.S. Can cylinders be resleeved once they are bored to +0.060 ??
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P.S. Can cylinders be resleeved once they are bored to +0.060 ??
I wonder if they can? It seems there will only be about .060 inch left in the skirt!
Is sleaving now a better option maybe?
I have posted some photos of the head for comments on condition and steps to avoid maybe? I am going to replace the guides and seats, is there anything special about replacing either I need to be on the lookout for? I plan to use guide material locally sourced.
The crank as it came out, it measures perfectly at +.030.
It seems every single nut and bolt on the bike has been attacked with a shifting spanner, in fact I think it was once re-built with one 12" spanner!
Cheers
Kiwi
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The crank would be at -0.030 ?
It MUST be dismantled and the sludge trap cleaned out - or engine failure from blocked oilways is always possible.
Don't clean it out, and then grind/polish the journals !!
What do the valves look like ?
Make sure the shop doing this has done Norton guides before, or they will almost certainly screw it up.
Hard to tell what those seats look like.
You need a VERY experienced shop to get those right.
And unless absolutely worn out, best left alone. ?
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Yes -.030 :-[
The crank doesn't need grinding but I will split it and clean it. I found sludge completely blocking the Oil pressure relief valve and the oil screen under it, the bottom end of this motor was previously put back together ready to RUN! It seems the case as the big end and main bearings are all new. the owner would have a had a nasty experience.
The valves are damaged on top of the stem and the seats are recessed quite significantly, the valves have been recessing down through the seats and the inlet valves look better placed on the exhaust side.
Valve spring pressure is something I can't find in my Haynes book?
I intend to take your advice and try to find someone with Norton experience, Thanks
Regards
Kiwi
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Hi Kiwi,
I would firstly find some local Norton / Vintage Enthuasists in you part of the World, they will know of reputable firms that will be able to sort out your engine problems without shipping them halfway round the world, get several opinions!!!!
On the Dommy engines theres a spigot on the top of the cylinder that fits into the register in the head
When the cylinders are rebored the spigot becomes very thin and often cracks around where it meets the gasket face, It can be machined completely away and then rely on the gasket only to seal the joint
This is another consideration if you are having the cylinders resleeved
Again very hard to advise with out actually seeing and measuring up,
I would firstly try and source some secondhand cylinders that have not been bored past the recommended max oversize
Again on the head, find people who have had sucessful repairs before commiting the work to someone
I would have the ports blast cleaned to remove any carbon stuck to the guides before trying to remove them,
The best practice is to machine away the tops of the guides so as they can be removed towards the ports
Heat the head to 220- 240 deg C before removing and replacing guides
HTH
John
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Hi John
Thanks very much this is valuable information for me, yesterday I made contact with a person I was directed to from a custom motor cycle shop and he has said many things to me that are consistent with what I have been told here. He mentioned the valve seats are cast into the head and should not be replaced if at all possible and he did say the guides can be very tricky if not dealt with very carefully. he went on to describe correct cam follower fitting etc and explained the risks of letting a modern machinist at the head and barrel.
I have some comfort in talking to him and he was not that keen to take on the job until we got talking about the bike, I think that speaks volumes sometimes!
This guy told me has has owned a few Dominators and they were among his favorite bikes, he is not able to look at my stuff for a couple of weeks but he does live not too far away so I intend to wait until I can see him and assess his background for my self.
It does sound like he is retiring from doing bikes or at least slowing down his work load so here's hoping he is well experienced!
Can you tell me what size the nuts are on the crank shaft flanges? I don't have any whit-worth spanners any longer, I am ashamed to say I discarded a significant amount of them years ago! ::) I went to undo the bolts last night and discovered nothing imperial or metric will come close!
Cheers
Kiwi
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Hi Kiwi,
Before you proceed any further go and get some Whit ring and open spanners + sockets
Its a long time since I built an 88 engine, but I think that the crank holding together studs have either 1/8th or 3/16 whit nut sizes,
Its recommended that the studs and nuts are replaced after each use,
Beware of crap pattern ones :o , I had to send several sets back to a well known supplier as they were pure sh*t
HTH
John
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Thanks John
Going tool shopping today
Cheers
Eryn
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WOW Talk about sludge! Thanks to this forums tips I found this! Looks like a regrind and no clean out of the journals! The stuff I found in the crankshaft looks like grinding grit, so this engine was doomed if it had been put back together as is.
Goes to show there are no short cuts.
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Hi all,
I am back on the resto track with what I now think is a 61 model 88-SS.
I have attached a few photos of progress and especially the crank as I now see after cleaning it has 88-SS stamped on it, does anyone know if this means the whole bike is an SS or did Norton sometimes have a stamped for one model shaft put in other models?
The photos show all of the bike frame components blasted and then in the primed state.
Note the Indian with the Vincent engine fitted, I am sure this will get some reaction from the purists among you! (Colonials eh!)
Cheers to all
Regards
Kiwi
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The thing that really makes an 88SS is the twin carb downdraft cylinder head.
And the cam to go with it...
Who belongeth the Vindian ?
Nice looking work, look forward to seeing more.
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Thanks R
I will post progress photos.
Looks like I am back to a model 88 then, thanks for the ever reliable advice.
The article in the magazine only refers to the owner by his first name "Peter" he is an active member of the Indian motorcycle club of Australia that is all I know. I thought you may be able to zoom to read the article, it pretty much covers the history in brief of the Vindian from when Phillip Vincent met up with Ralph Rogers and they decided to combine the two bikes just pre 1949.
Cheers
Kiwi
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Hi R and everyone
I am having a really tough time removing the front fork stauncheon from the lower fork tube, I have followed the instructions in the Haynes manual to the letter but when I try to pull the two pieces apart it feels like its hitting an immoveable object inside.
By the book it appears I have the later model forks with the chrome coated collar that screws down into the lower fork tube on top of the seal.
Is there any applicable fork model that could have a collar or circlip that needs to be removed before disassembley and would be obscured by the dust seal?
Any idea's?
Kind Regards
Kiwi
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can be tight , have you undone the dampner rod ?
see document below
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Once you have removed the threaded chrome bits that retain the fork seals, it should all come apart.
The fork seals can corrode themselves attached to the top of the alloy sliders, and can take a good heave or 6 to separate them out of their housing.
The fork dampers may interfere with this, depending on what they are, but should not prevent things coming apart - assuming you have undone and removed the large chrome nuts on the top of the forks, and removed/freed the damper rods threaded into them.
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Thanks Wetdog
great info, it seems I am on the right track but it is Bldy tight! what about putting subtle heat on the lower fork tube at the top?
I did undo the dampener even though the book says, do it last. I have done modern American shocks and they are about the same setup basically.
By the way I have been going over all the duplicate bike parts and I now "choose" to believe that this bike was probably an SS before it was !"£%^%ised in Malaysia and there is a possibility it orbited the moon a couple of times while John Glenn was waiting for Buzz and Neil to get back in the Luna capsule. Norton could not have imagined how many parts could be so worn out!
I just removed the wheel bearings from the rear hub (something that looked well repaired on the face of it) only to find the outside of the ball bearing was spaced with a shim made from a beer can!
Have to say it will be pretty comprehensively re-built by the time I finish!!
Any one recognise the beer can?
One of you guys warned me about the Asian region bikes.......mmmmm
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"the Asian region bikes" ............ they do tend to get things going one way or another , same as Bulgaria, ive bought two VW vans split screen late 50s early 60s , but they've been standing for some years , they must be bad if they've given up with them , will post pics when they arrive just for a laugh
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Looking forward to those photos, I once passed up a split screen combi as a piece of rubbish, who's the mug now!
Finally got the fork apart, I had to lightly heat up the lower and set it up in a jig so I could repeatedly flog the sanction for ten minutes solid before it came out. I got all set up to do the same with the second one and it popped out first pull!
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Looks like it could be a bit from a 'Tiger Beer' can.
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Hi All
I am getting there, all parts are painted now just put some examples up for interest sake. The parts have their clear coat but not polished yet.
I took a photo of the Triumph I saw at the bike show here last Sunday, there were five Vincents lined up as well, pretty nice.
Kind Regards
Kiwi
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The twin forum at the NOC website is a scene of massive discussion and argument,some heated,about Dominators,650SS,Manxmen,etc.There is a multitude of changes,variations,etc. that affects these bikes of around that era.Even partslists cannot be relied on.IMHO,the SS refers to as well as whats been mentioned,an increase in crank journal size,which was applied to the 650s at the same time.I suggest you check out this forum.The machinist you refer to ,I think is a person I have known for 40 years,and would be close to Australias best British (and Jap) bike machinist.Unfortunately,he has been forced to stop rather suddenly,and I wont say more than that.Regards John.
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Hi John.K
Thanks for your reply, I have found researching this bike fairly confusing for the reasons you point out, I am about to make up an order to Norvil who said they will help out where I have the part numbers confused, but it does seem a messy job working out parts for these bikes in this way.
It is knowing what to look out for, I need to better establish what exactly I have and I think I have been too quick to accept a couple of indications like frame numbers and engine numbers that would normally Identify a model in other bikes readily.
You are correct in your assumptions about the machinist, I have only heard great things about his ability and knowledge, I was lucky enough to speak to him briefly and he helped me avert a disaster in that one call.
I have been put on to a chap in Loganholme near my work so I hope to meet him soon to see if he can help me out.
Thank you for your feed back.
Regards
Eryn
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As the bike has been together and running,you don't need to worry about things like the incompatability between featherbed and single downtube bits ,which often totally stuffs up basketcase restorers.I seem to remember,that different capacity parts fit the crankcase,so you should establish stroke and bore,and not rely on case numbers as gospel.Obviously, your best bet is to try and find someone local that has restored one,and talk to them.There are little tricky things like some pushrods being too "fat" to fit the holes in the cylinder without fauling,and putting the flywheel the right way round,as well as many others.Expensive mistakes are best avoided..Regards John.
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Does anyone have an idea on price difference between points electrics, rebuilt, or purchased new and an electronic system conversion?
My Dizzy base plate and counter weights look ok.....but I need new everything else coil, points, rotor,alternator/generator,resistor,cap,leads etc etc.
I can imagine some problems with the old points system, but how bad are they? Verses electronic conversion cost and effort to install?
I get that the electronics once installed should be brilliant, but would you do it?
Cheers
Kiwi
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The Lucas horizontal dizzy was subject to wear in the auto advance components,which makes for variable point gap,and timing.The shaft bearing in the body is easily repaired,but the auto advance not so easy.The usual solution is and allways was to fit a K2F magneto with manual advance.To fit an alternator,you will need the adaptor and mounting parts in the primary case.If your motor takes a generator,and you don't have one,then consider a modern replacement,as Lucas gennys are going for the same kind of money.Incidentally,a 57 would have had the 6v system which allways boiled the battery over the chrome primary case,with resultant acid damage.Regards John.
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"would have had the 6v system which allways boiled the battery " ............... did this only happen on nortons ?
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Thanks for your replies, but my subject line is now misleading because some time ago forum members helped me determine the bike is actually a late 1961 model.
Sorry for the confusion I should have changed the subject as the pages rolled on!
Perhaps the advice hasn't change?
Cheers
Kiwi
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Actually,58 was the first year of the alternator on twins,and the 6v system had no current regulation,save the battery.It was allways very noticeable,with chrome stripped and rust stains.The 6v alternators wer nt encapsulated and wires often broke.The 12 v system had many improvements.Considering the first Lucas bike alternators came out in 1943,they took a long time to get them right.Regards John.
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Didn't the 6V system have alternator coils switched in or out by the light switch? It may be crude, but it's still regulation. Agreed, the battery acts as a reliable voltage regulator if the system is well designed and load matches demand. That nice Mr Honda has been doing it for years on the cheap end of the ranges.
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Kiwi,
Your model 88 is definitely a 1962. I have four 1962 Dominators, three 500cc and one 650cc, and have picked up a few bits of information on them. If your bike is an 88ss the engine crankcases will be clearly stamped 88SS on the left case above the crankcase breather. A standard 88 will be stamped "88" or "88C" most likely. Your engine number 101010 should also be stamped into the right swingarm gusset vertically below a horizontal "122" stamping.
A lot of the parts on your bike make it look like it was a standard Dominator. A 1962 88ss would have a manual-advance K2FC Lucas magneto, a oil tank with a froth tower and a timing cover with machining to accept an optional tachometer drive. A standard 88 would have the distributor like your bike has, the oil tank sans froth tower with the center panel welded to it and a plain non-tach drive timing cover. Also your head looks like the standard Dominator head, not the downdraught SS head. The standard head had manifold studs that were above and below the ports, the SS head had the studs all in a horizontal line surrounding downdraught ports. The SS cam will be stamped "X1" and the standard cam will be stamped "QR".
Chrome fenders were an option this year, as were a folding kickstarter, a chrome primary, the tachometer among other goodies all listed in the parts book and owners' manual for this bike.
After 5 decades it is anyone's guess what has been done to the bike, if it was bored over then the engine was apart. Two of my 62' 88s are SS models and the third is a works road racer.
Starting in 1960 the crankshaft in the 88 and 99 was strengthened by decreasing the size of the sludge trap inside the rod journals from 1" to 5/8". The crank journals O.D. remained the same 1.5". No Model 88 or 99 Nortons ever had rod journals larger than 1.5" except for about a dozen works road race bikes that the factory entered or supported during 1961 and 1962.
Besides the three 1962 model 88s and the same year 650ss, I have Norton 650cc Manxman serial #3, a 59' Manx, the 20th 99ss, the second 750cc Atlas engine, and a later 650ss that I can refer to for needed information. I have an internet page just for information on bikes like yours here:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Norton-Manxman-SportSpecial-and-racing-motorcycles/187441501303123
Good luck, and that is a very nice old Dominator you have there....
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Hi beng
Thanks for your information, you are right on the money by the looks of it, The engine case has 88C stamped on it and the frame numbers are as you say, a horizontal 122 with the 101010 vertical underneath. The crank has 88/SS on it and I will measure the journals tonight. I am grateful for your information on the optional chrome guards etc too as I have gone for a standard look with the black frame and split black and off-white tank. I have blasted and repainted all the frame components but kept the enamel look, but I used PU paint. the bike should look original as from the factory as near as I can get it and not over refurbished.
Can I ask where you are getting new engine components? I need pistons, pins, rings, big end shells, valves, springs, retainers, gasket sets etc,etc. among other stuff.
I am going to get a quote from Norvil, they seem to have a good reputation.
My barrel seems in ok condition but it either needs to go out to .60 over size or be sleeved back to standard, have you had to do either? I am not really wanting to bore to .60 over as I will have put a lot of effort into this bike and it seems wrong to me to have the engine out so far. Is one of these barrels up to being sleeved reliably? I have read that the barrels can be a little weak?
Does a sleeved barrel present any other problems that you might know about? (over heating)?
I have some extra parts with this bike too that may be of use to someone.
Thanks for the Facebook link and really good information!
Kind Regards
Kiwi
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Kiwi,
It is never a bad idea to slow down when you are working on a bike like this, especially if it is one you don't have a lot of prior experience with.
Any 1962 Model 88 is a very rare machine, especially one that is as complete as yours is. The parts specific to your engine, the cylinder and crankshaft especially are extremely rare, if you are lucky you will see one of each come up for sale on the world market in useable condition each year, really.
The rest of the engine parts are easier as they are the same as either the Model 99 or 650. In fact your crankcases are what some people call "humpback" Dominator cases, which they just started using on the 1961 bikes, it has more clearance in it so that it can take the big 650cc crank and connecting rods. In fact all you have to do to convert your engine to 650cc is to put a 650cc crank, rods, pistons and cylinder on it. Your cylinder head is not the style the 650 was sold with but it will bolt onto a 650 and run fine.
If you can get a first-rate machinist with experience sleeving bores on classic bikes and a list of satisfied customers then it would not be a bad way to go. I am running a 650ss right now that has a sleeved cylinder and it seems to have no problems. A good machinist with experience would be able to look at your cylinders and tell you how much material has to be left in them before they can no longer be sleeved. The 88 cylinders do have thicker castings than the 99 and 650 cylinder though, and if you run a good air cleaner the cylinder can last a very long time. I know someone who has an original paint 1961 Norton 650 that has tens of thousands of miles on it and still runs well with it's original bore and rings because since it turned past 5000 miles it has had foam sock filters on it's carbs.
The current Hepolite company is supposed to be selling all sizes of Dominator pistons, and a very good Norton engine builder here says that he has had no problem with the quality of current Hepolite products. The Norton 88 has small light pistons compared to the 750-850 Nortons and it has a very short stroke, the pistons are not stressed highly, so any cast pistons you can find will do a good job, leave the forged pistons to the racers.
My first choice for Norton engine parts is to be patient and wait for old 60s stock to come up for sale at flea markets, old dealers or one of the Ebay online auctions.
Norvil has a large selection of parts, but a lot of his parts are sourced from third-world suppliers or are not manufactured to original specification. That is okay for a seat or something less critical, but not for engine parts. Most of Norvil's positive reviews they generate themselves. Gaskets are not really critical parts so I might trust them to supply those.
Andover Norton mostly sells Commando parts, but their parts are all made to high standards and must be to original quality spec or they will not sell them. They have a few parts for Dominators. The 750 Commando guides are the same as Dominator. Commando valves will fit but are a bit taller so they either have to be ground shorter and re-hardened or your pushrods need to be shortened to work with them. Norton made the longer valves an across the board change to all their Dominators starting in 1968.
Standard Commando valve springs are the same as SS Dominator springs and will work in your engine just fine. They are a different free length, but that is no concern as long as they fit your retainers and cups etc..
If your bike is something you are planning on keeping for life, then take your time and make sure you do a good job on the engine and gearbox at least. I am not a fan of bead blasting the alloy parts of vintage engines, it ruins the original as-cast finish, but one place bead blasting is very helpful is in removing the hard carbon deposits from around the valve guides in the head ports. After this carbon is blasted off, then heat the head up to 150c-200c and with a nice fitting drift knock the old guides out and if they are handy the new ones into place. If the old hard carbon is not gone and/or the head is not heated up when this is done then you will score the guide bores and ruin their ability to seal against the new valve guides.
The less you do to these old engines the better. When I looked close at my 62' Domi engine I saw that the cylnder had been sleeved to standard at sometime in the past, it was used though. I measured the bore and found it was worn .0035 over standard with no noticeable taper, the factory said that up to .006 wear with no taper was good so I threw new compression rings in it, gapped them and was finished. I put NOS iron guides in it with some new valves I had bought years ago, made sure my used springs were not sagged according to Paul Dunstall's tuning manual. If you want me to email you a pdf copy of his manual shoot me your regular email address and I may be able to do it, it is less than 8mb file, lots of good Domi information in it even for stock rebuilds.
I have my own valve grinding equipment so I kissed the seats of my head as lightly as I could to get the job done and threw the head together.
Superblend main bearings that they put in 850 Commandos will go right into a Domi and they never go bad. I have a few used sets I saved out of Commandos I had scrapped out years ago and put a set in. Often you can get these from Norton engine rebuilders that they have taken out of engines that customers bought new ones for that are in excellent condition very cheaply.
My crank rod journals looked very good with a micrometer so I cleaned the crank out, made sure there were no burrs inside it where they drilled the oil holes through and put it together with new std. rod shells. Before I had weighed all my reciprocating parts on a gram scale and balanced the crank on my kitchen table on two knife-edge levels.
My Domi runs very smoothly and it is very powerful now. I put a plastic-caged drive-side layshaft roller bearing in the transmission as this is the one upgrade for these gearboxes that is so good it has to be done. The rest of the bearings looked very good, so I loctited the sleeve gear bearing in place, made sure my layshaft end-play was in spec and put it together, it shifts like slicing warm butter. A mouse could shift it from 3rd to high for me.
Don't replace things just for the sake of replacing them, just the critical or safety items. If something is good use it, you may not be able to find modern replacements that are as good a quality.
The 650-750 both had the same cranks, just balanced differently and are very easy to find. All 650-850 rods are interchangeable. 650 cylinders are hard to find but not as hard to find as 88 cylinders. 99 cylinders will work with a 650 crank as long as the bottoms of the cylinder sleeves are notched to clear the 650 crank and rods. So if you run across a good 650 or 99 cylinder for a decent price grab it, as you could run your engine as a 650 for a while, as long as you don't mind having extra torque and power and reliability.
Oiling system: Very marginal on these bikes. The 650ss, 750 and all 64' and later Norton twins had higher capacity pumps, 66' and later doubled the speed of the pump with a new set of drive gears. A later pump and drive gears will bolt right onto your engine. You will have to carefully enlarge the oil passages to fit the larger passages on the pump body. Increasing oiling is not for racing, but for reliability and so you can push return oil through a Commando style oil filter, which will make your rod journals last way longer if you put high miles on the bike. The oil tank with the froth tower has a fitting that you run the engine breather to so oil consumption is improved quite a bit. Ex-Norton employee Heinz Kegler told me to leave the breather disc off the end of the cam and to drill a new hole in the crankcase where I did. I added the oil tank with the froth tower and put the old one on a shelf in the basement. Seems to work well. The later Dominator oil tanks can often be found very cheaply. The 66' and later Dominators had plain rocker arm shafts with full pressure oiling to them. Your rockers have scrolled shafts with a low pressure feed to them off the return line to the oil tank. I left the old system on my 62' 650ss as I have seen bikes with this system go many thousands of miles with no problems. I had the parts and used them as it was easy to use them. A top Norton engine builder here in the USA did tests and found out that if he drilled a new drain hole in the timing chest to lower it's oil level to the point where the crank timing pinion is just kissing the surface of the oil level, that the engine oil temperature dropped significantly. Easy to do on any Norton with a hand drill.
Here is my 650ss going together here with details on the oiling mods:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.248150218565584.56645.187441501303123&type=3
So you get back to taking your good old time with the bike. There is a lot to learn and a lot of subtle things that can be done to improve it's reliability and practicality. . I was in a hurry to put my 62' together and although I did a decent job and it runs great, there are still things I would have done a little different if I had waited a while longer and taken more time on it. Hurrying was my no.1 enemy and it certainly was my bikes.
I guess that is enough to think about for tonight......
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As we say down under sometimes "Crikey!" a lot of thought provoking information, I am fortunate to be at a stage where I haven't gone in any one direction too far so I will take stock of your comments.
I would be most grateful of the Dunstall manual.
I will send you a PM
Cheers
Kiwi
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Hi all
I am persevering with my re-build and I have a couple of questions I would like to pose to you all
I have had some very sound advice recently and following it has been very productive but I am interested in opinions on a couple of things.
Firstly; has anyone fitted the 6-start gears to an old pump (1962 Model 88 pump)??
What are the experiences or opinions on running the old pump faster and not bothering with high pressure feed so as to get better oil flow without the changes to the top end that high pressure feeds brings?
Is this a pointless exercise? It has been pointed out to me more than once that leaving things standard is most often best!
Second; I have acquired a used barrel that will re-bore to suit .020 over size pistons, but it has some broken fins. My old barrel (original) is in great shape on the outside but needs re sleeving if I am to use it.
My options as I see them are; Use the new barrel, by cutting fins off the old original one and fixing the broken fins, then re-bore to .020 oversize. (I could by broken fins from a source here to do the same task but they will be random sizes etc)
Or; re sleeve my original barrel back to standard.
Which way would you go here??
Curious
Kiwi
Kind Regards to all.
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Definitely don't damage the fins on an otherwise good set of cylinders.
The future owner that hates this, and then needs to repair it, could be yourself... !!
Difficult to say which is the best way forward.
A lot of cylinders have been resleeved over the decades, well done this is a very effective repair.
Broken fins can also be repaired with sheet steel, if the welder knows what he is doing.
They need to be shaped or ground to size a bit first.
If your oil pump and motor are all in good condition, these motors did some big mileages back in their day.
So the oiling system is still quite capable.
It mentions somewhere to regularly place a finger over the oil outlet in the tank, to force oil up the lines to the head,
and give everything a good flush out - and oil.
Try what you have first, before playing with it, and fixing what ain't broke ... ?
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go to plus 60
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You know of a source of +60 pistons ??
Better to save the wall thickness for sleeving.... ?
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any size between 66 and 69mm are now being made , not cheap here are some http://www.norvilmotorcycle.co.uk/ £200 a pair , they also do liners etc
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Be aware that some Norvil repo stuff is very variable quality. ?
And if you have a problem, its YOUR fault !!
Just mention conrod bolts, and stand clear....
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ive only ever bought shells off them and no problem as yet (touch wood) but im not a norton twin fan , but i do still have a 99 (i think maybe a 88) engine in bits under the bench
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Thanks for your views gents
So who supplies quality sleeves then? I am not holding any one accountable for the quality or the reputation of a supplier. But I am keen for opinions or experiences?
Is it possible to run an 88 oil pump at 6-start gear speeds?
wetdog, do you need relieving of your old 88 engine parts? ;D
Cheers
Kiwi
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not just yet thanks , I keep thinking I might use it one day
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I imagined that may be your answer, my question was a little tongue in cheek! I seem to have a collection of things I might do one day too...................
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By the way, is it normal for the factory speedo to jump up in increments of 5 Mph or so rather than go smoothly from zero up?
Just wondering if it is working properly.....
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Chronometric.... they all do that sir.
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Seems that Wetdog is one of those annoying hoarding types who never parts with anything until it's totally unuseable or you drop dead and the stuff ends up in a dump. Me, I always try to help the motorcycle fraternity by moving parts on! Try and be a little realistic with your stashes people.
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have you been talking to my wife ? I do have to many projects but I will get round to finishing so long as I live to be 300 , I do/hope motorcycles keep you yonge , having said that I also get shut of what I don't want which is quite a lot each year , I tend to buy any thing im offerd
just dug it out its a 99
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Is it possible to run an 88 oil pump at 6-start gear speeds?
Sure, all you have to do is put the gears on. I rode a 1961 Dominator for almost 20 years that was all stock except switched to the fast pump gears. Mine had the "S" pump, so you will get less oil than I did, but more than your engine did originally.
It would certainly not hurt to enlarge the oil passages the way Norton did when they went to the large pump and fast gears, but not doing so did not hurt my 61' Domi over tens of thousands of miles of road use. I did read somewhere that putting the fast gears on an early Domi with the large S pump could froth up the oil, but I never noticed this problem.
On my current daily rider, a 62' Domi, I have the S pump and fast gears installed also, but it also has had oil passageways enlarged towards the 66' and later specification, but not quite there. It has the 62' and later oil tank with the froth tower too, which can not hurt and gives a place to connect the crankcase breather to.
One could look at the factories oiling system modifications for the Norton Dominator as layers applied over the years. The first level is the small pump and slow gears, the second level was the big pump with slow gears, the third level was the big pump with fast gears and enlarged oil passageways. If you want to count the 850 Commandos addition of a spin-on cartridge filter then add another layer.
On the top end there were two steps, the original low-pressure scrolled rocker spindles fed by the return line to the oil tank, and the 1966-on plain spindles fed by the pressure side of the oil pump. Both top-end oiling systems have been used with success on any combination of oil pump and drive gears, but with the early scrolled spindles you have to check you are getting enough back-pressure in the return line to force oil to them.
Whenever you swap or mix parts from different years it is your responsibility to do the checking on the final installation to make sure everything is getting lubed. Just because someone else has got a parts combination working, does not mean that the parts you bolt on will do the same thing. Something as simple as the size of the oil return hole in the oil tank, or the amount of wear in your oil pump could give completely different results, and with many of our parts being half a century old no one can guarantee what your parts will do for you.
Also you should get hold of Hamish Cooper, he is a journalist in Australia/N.Z. who has a road racer with a Norton 88 engine in it along with many spares. He could put you in touch with the Norton Model 88 network "down under". If you google him you will be able to find his website and contact him.
Good luck
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Thanks beng, Great answer, just what I was hoping for.
And thanks to all forum members who have helped out, it is very valuable for first time Norton restorers
I will post photos soon
Kind Regards
Kiwi
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For another example, I recently acquired a 1961 Norton that I know the history of back to 1969 so far.
After a previous owner acquired it that year he had some standard work done on the engine such as machining with new pistons and bearings to fit.
According to the paperwork the odometer racked up over 20 thousand miles before it was torn down for inspection again. It has the standard Dominator pump but someone had put the fast gears in at some point.
The engine looks good inside except for the usual wear one would expect in an engine with only wire mesh as an oil filter. The rod journals are worn down between a half and one thousandths below their last regrind and the shell bearings look like they took a lot of abuse, scored and imbedded with metal particles.
Looking at a number of 850 Commando cranks that had been run a similar mileage, I am sure that this Model 99 would have been in much better shape if it had spent the last 40+ years running with a oiling system strong enough to move it's oil through a spin-on cartridge filter as the 850 engines had.
Unless the oil total oil system, oil passage size, pump size and pump speed, is upgraded to the post-65' spec, I would wonder if it would be overwhelmed trying to push through a cartridge filter. If I try the spin-on filter with lesser parts in the future I will certainly report to the Norton public how it works.
Right now what we know is that there is not much you can do to make the oiling on early Dominators worse, and that once they got the Norton twin up to a spec that would run a spin on filter, the life of the wearing engine parts, especially the rod journals and bearings, have a much longer and easier life.
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Putting bigger gears in the oil pump and spinning it faster gives more VOLUME, not pressure. ?
I know of several older dommies with commando filters fitted - Norton Dealers have sold them as a kit for quite some years now - and they work quite well. By all reports, not having actually tried it.
The spin-on oil filters work on the scavenge side of course, so if the pump was not up to it the scavenge side would show problems. The pressure side depends purely on the level of oil in the oil tank for its supply, and only if this got low with oil not being returned to the tank, and the sump level had surplus oil down there, would this cause a problem ??
Of course, with modern oils, if its changed regularly, any contaminants are gone.
A magnetic sump plug catching anything steel at least.
Fresh oil is cheap, engines are expensive.
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Putting bigger gears in the oil pump and spinning it faster gives more VOLUME, not pressure. ?
Is that a question or a statement?
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A statement, and questioning your comments.
Norvil, RGM etc have been selling filter kits for decades.
eg http://www.norvilmotorcycle.co.uk/techtalk13.htm
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Putting bigger gears in the oil pump and spinning it faster gives more VOLUME, not pressure. ?
So you are saying that when engine rpm increases along with the rpm of the oil pump, you never saw the oil pressure on an engine go up too?
A statement, and questioning your comments.
Yes, lots of shops have and will sell lots of parts for your bike. If you want you can accept what they sell on blind faith, but a good mechanic does not take things for granted, which is why if you read back a bit you will see I said just that:
Whenever you swap or mix parts from different years it is your responsibility to do the checking on the final installation to make sure everything is getting lubed. Just because someone else has got a parts combination working, does not mean that the parts you bolt on will do the same thing. Something as simple as the size of the oil return hole in the oil tank, or the amount of wear in your oil pump could give completely different results, and with many of our parts being half a century old no one can guarantee what your parts will do for you.
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Sure, you can fit a bigger oil pump, and see more oil pressure in a worn out engine.
And there likely is some benefit in fitting a pump with more flow, which is what plain bearing motors are all about.
Norton Dealers have been selling these oil filter kits for about 40 years.
Someone would have noticed by now if they didn't work if retrofitted to earlier Nortons.
They fit all Nortons back into the 1930s even - as plenty of reports on the NOC Forum also say.
So we probably don't need to wait for you to report back to know they work ..
You seem a little behind the times ?
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I never said late parts would not work on early bikes, I just said that when I, or any good and careful mechanics change out oil system parts they should check to make sure they are working, pretty simple and basic mechanical advice.
If you don't feel the need to make sure your bike is getting oil after you do work on it's oiling system that is your business, but I would not pay you to work on anything I own.
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I never said late parts would not work on early bikes, I just said that when I, or any good and careful mechanics change out oil system parts they should check to make sure they are working, pretty simple and basic mechanical advice.
You said...
Unless the oil total oil system, oil passage size, pump size and pump speed, is upgraded to the post-65' spec, I would wonder if it would be overwhelmed trying to push through a cartridge filter. If I try the spin-on filter with lesser parts in the future I will certainly report to the Norton public how it works.
Those kits have been available from Norton Dealers now for nigh on 40 years, for Commandos and Dommies.
Someone would have noticed by now if they didn't work.
We don't need your 'report' to know that !!!!
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P.S. My old early dommie came with an AMC oil fiter system fitted (in the tank).
Seemed like a good idea back then, so I left it there.
From its history, this must have been pre the Commando fitting an oil filter system.
This filter is removeable and washable, and you can inspect whats in it.
So in some respects is better than the spin-on type of Commando filter ?
Does nothing for originality though...
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these twins are not really my thing but is not the oil pressure controlled via a release valve set for buy pass ? the larger vol pump is there to move more oil and so remove more heat keeping the motor cooler , and helping to maintain a minimum pressure , fitting a oil pressure guage to some british bikes is quite scarry , ive seen 20psi on a very hot 76 bonnie , I had to stop
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The very early Norton dommies had an oil pressure gauge fitted in the tank.
Calibrated to 160 psi, it must be said - but with an oil pressure relief valve, like you say.
So the pressure was limited to 40 psi max, except when cold - when the oils in those days was somewhat thick.
Oil gauge showed some scary low values, and Nortons answer was to delete it for the swingarm models. !
The engines ran quite well of course, and didn't seem to mind low pressures.
The oil tank doesn't get particulary hot, even on these iron engines, so the oil does little with respect to heat removal ?
Except around the exhaust valve, when every little bit helps.
It was the scavenge-fed oil supply to the head that was somewhat lacking, the oiling being somewhat intermittent.
This showed up as sometimes rapid wear of cams and cam followers, due to little oil coming down the pushrod tunnels.
And also of rockers and valve guides.
It wasn't until the pressure fed oiling to the head for 1964 (was it ?) that this was corrected.
And the real reason for the bigger oil capacity oil pump, since pressure oiling the head would otherwise have taken pressure/volume away from the big ends...
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how did they pressure feed the head ? to many british bikes just had a T off the return , I regularly put my finger over the end to force more to the top end .
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I regularly put my finger over the end to force more to the top end .
As the manual indeed recommends.
Keeps the debris (inc carbon) blocking up the flow path to the rockers and valves.
Probably why the flow sometimes just wasn't enough.
Pressure feed was done simply by plumbing the feed out of the timing cover - and from the oil feed to the crank.
And redoing the shafts and drillings in the head so that flow wasn't unlimited, so maintained some pressure with some flow.
Nortons had redone the scavenge side oil feed to the head, several times, and there is mention on the NOC Forum that the Navigator (was it ?) type fittings give the most reliable system for adequate flow into the head.
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Putting bigger gears in the oil pump and spinning it faster gives more VOLUME, not pressure. ?
Hey R. Since anyone who has ever owned an engine with an oil pressure gauge knows that oil pressure goes up with rpm. Can you tell us why an expert like yourself would not know that?
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C'mon Ben, anyone who knows anything about oil and hydraulics (and pneumatics) knows that RESTRICTING that flow is what gives it PRESSURE. No restriction = no pressure, only flow....
Its like volts and amps with electrickery.
Or a garden hose flowing water with an open end, or with a sprinkler attached.
Norton singles work with essentially that same gear oil pump (only a near mirror image), and they give purely FLOW - into a roller bearing motor. Putting an oil pressure gauge on it will probably show near zero pressure. The little tell-tale oil pop up on prewar Nortons must work on all of about 2 psi ??
But then, if you didn't know that oil filters work on Nortons, and they have been on the market for 40 years, maybe you haven't been around Nortons much ?
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P.S. Motorcycle lube systems are often quoted in gallons per hour.
That is a flow rate, is it not ?
A Vincent twin is quoted at 4 gals per hour, think that was at 55 mph.
That was considered quite a lot, for its era.
A Norton Commando was 15 gals per hour, although at a slightly higher speed ?
A Suzuki Gixxer is quoted at 30 (?) gals per hour, probably at a fair rate of knots.
Thats a gallon every 2 minutes...
Some of these are roller bearing motors, and some are plain bearing motors.
Obviously, their demands vary, somewhat.
And some have more bearings than others...
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Putting bigger gears in the oil pump and spinning it faster gives more VOLUME, not pressure. ?
My point is "R", is that you are not here to help anyone or contribute useful information to the thread, you are here simply to be the center of attention. Your posts are rife with errors, contradictions and lacking logic and common sense.
For instance you state:
It was the scavenge-fed oil supply to the head that was somewhat lacking, the oiling being somewhat intermittent.
This showed up as sometimes rapid wear of cams and cam followers, due to little oil coming down the pushrod tunnels.
And also of rockers and valve guides. It wasn't until the pressure fed oiling to the head for 1964 (was it ?) that this was corrected.
And the real reason for the bigger oil capacity oil pump, since pressure oiling the head would otherwise have taken pressure/volume away from the big ends...
It was 1966 when Norton switched to plain rocker spindles. They started using the bigger "S" pump in 1961 and did so for five years with the scavenge feed to the head with no problems, so no it was NOT the reason for the bigger capacity oil pump.
Also, since the pressure to the big-ends was not from the scavenge side of the pump how could it take pressure away from them?
If you state that the big problem with early Dominators was lack of oiling to the top, then you contradict yourself by stating that it is silly to worry about putting a cartridge filter in the scavenge return to the oil tank. Since you are such an expert on hydraulics then you know there is a pressure drop across a cartridge style filter, and that would decrease the amount of oil to the top end of the early Dominators, which was always my point. If however as I previously suggested someone makes up for the pressure drop across a cartridge filter by installing some of the same upgrades to the rest of the oiling system that Norton did, then they do not have to worry. They would certainly have to worry if they take your advice to just install parts without thinking though.
Telling people to change their oil more often or that having a washable mesh filter being just as good as a cartridge filter is silly. A cartridge filter will remove much smaller particles than washable/reusable mesh filters. The point of upgrading the earlier oil systems to where they can use a cartridge filter is that it offers much better longevity of the crankshaft journals, and also it has been proven to protect the crankshaft journals in the event of an engine component failure that dumps metal particles into the oiling system.
Having dismantled and looked at the crankshafts of many Norton twins, both early Dominators and late Commandos that had cartridge filters over their service life, I know this first hand.
All this information has previously been put up in this thread, but you either did not read it, or your reading comprehension is very low.
I am in this thread to offer good and helpful information about Norton Dominators, you are here doing the exact opposite just so you can flex your ego.
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If you don't like the science Ben, why don't you make up your own version...
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My point is "R", is that you are not here to help anyone or contribute useful information to the thread, you are here simply to be the center of attention.
Thats funny !
You've been kicked off all the Norton lists and forums around.
Why, may we ask ?
You and Anna Jeannette on the NOC Forum are like a pair - EVERYTHING comes back to your 650 Nortons, the whole world seems to revolve around them, they get mentioned in EVERY post !!! Everything and everyone else is rubbish.
Thats funny !
Its a shame to spoil this forum with more of the same ?
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Also, since the pressure to the big-ends was not from the scavenge side of the pump how could it take pressure away from them?
Your reading comprehension seems to be low ?
Pressure feeding the head from the FEED SIDE takes oil flow/pressure away from the big ends.
If you missed this bit, then your whole understanding is missing...
Nortons tried this with the 1957/58 Nomads was it, with that odd fitting off the timing cover and the internal pressure relief valve ??? Did the regular 99 engines have this too ?
Nortons whole history was one of minor contradictions, missed opportunites and backtracking. !?!
If you are not familiar with this, then ???
Seems VERY odd you criticising me for suggesting regular oil changes, if no filter is installed.
(The Norton FACTORY recommended regular oil changes, in THE MANUAL, after all..)
If you don't know that oil filters will work on dommies, then you must have been doing a bit of this yourself ??!!
Hopefully.
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Putting bigger gears in the oil pump and spinning it faster gives more VOLUME, not pressure. ?
My point is "R", is that you are not here to help anyone or contribute useful information to the thread, you are here simply to be the center of attention. Your posts are rife with errors, contradictions and lacking logic and common sense.
I've noticed that those who accuse others of certain motives, seem to have the same motives themselves.
.
CZ
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its christmas can we keep it on bikes , maybe kiss and make up , i can see both your points but dont want to get involed and you are both into you nortons
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maybe kiss and make up ,
Not a chance !
Bens posts are full of good stuff, but its the few little errors and half truths that can mislead folks.
And if you point out an error, its the pages of rants misquoting you that are famous. !!
And CZ seems to have nailed it in one, good observation.
A truce maybe, for Xmas though, since you put it so nicely.
Merry Christmas to all and sundy !
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Merry Christmas to one and all and a happy new year too!
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Happy New Year everyone!
I hope you all made it through the over sized dinners, gallons of beer and wine, spongy puddings, family arguments in all! ;D :o
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I have heeded advice from this forum to great advantage and savings of potentially wasted time and money, I have a great appreciation for the information that has been forthcoming from this thread. I sincerely desire this thread go to the end of my project and stay as a great source of information, in particular for those of us who are getting into Nortons of all types.
factual information is key for newbies starting out and with this in mind I wish to make the following comments without fear of wrecking a great thread and the hope that the stress of last year is behind us all!
I posed a question about Model 88 oil pumps and using six start gears to speed them up.
Ben gave a clear balanced and helpful answer.
R made a statement "Putting bigger gears in the oil pump and spinning it faster gives more VOLUME, not pressure. ?"
There is a question mark inviting a correction.
R's statement is factually incorrect, in that with this particular type of reciprocating engine, increased RPM does in fact increase oil volume and pressure up until the point that either the pump reaches the desired pressure and flow due to the oil gallery dimensions and pressure head required to deliver to the oil tank or the oil bypass/relief valve opens.
Revving an engine from idle up to any higher speed will show and increase in oil pressure on a gauge and by definition also volume, this is evident on almost any engine fitted with a legible gauge fit for purpose.
Adding six start gears to a older slow pump will increase volume and pressure at idle and therefore incrementally up from there in relativity to the engine speed until other factors such as, reaching its maximum flow and pressure capability for the size of the oil galleries, possible cavitation or the relief valve opening occurs. (how much is the debatable element but not so relevant)
Also a garden hose for example, flowing a full hose diameter has some pressure coupled with the volume, indeed if you lift up the hose it will experience an increase in pressure if the volume stays the same, a further increase in volume will cause an increase in pressure. it is possible to have 100psi pressure and 0 flow from an open ended hose if the open end is sufficiently higher than the pump delivering the water. (HEAD)
There are many variables that could be argued all day long provided personalities don't wreck an otherwise helpful thread
Please accept my comments in the spirit I have portrayed.
I am not in any doubt about the hydraulics, I was most concerned with the older smaller pump coping with increased RPM and foaming, both of which have been answered.
Kind Regards
Kiwi
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Interesting comments Kiwi, although you appear to have introduced a few new variables, and errors, as well. ?
Your hose example would seem to be somewhat of a magic act - 100 psi AND an open ended hose ??
Its hard to imagine how a Norton could have oil pressure if it has unrestricted flow incorporated anywhere into the oiling system - except in the Pressure Relief Valve, where it acts like a regulator, like you say.
Folks here need to read up on positive displacement type pumps and oiling systems and pressure relief valves.
"Gear pumps are positive displacement (or fixed displacement), meaning they pump a constant amount of fluid for each revolution."
Pressure can ONLY come from restricting the flow.
Of course you get more flow from spinning the pump faster - and if the restriction remains, the pressure will likewise increase.
Nortons had an oil pressure gauge fitted to the earliest Dommies, circa 1950 etc.
It was soon deleted - the low readings scared owners, it was said - although the oiling system was working perfectly.
One of the Norton (Commando) rebuild guys in the US is suggesting on dedicated Norton Forums that oil pressure is largely a product of engine temp - and when they get well warmed up, the pressure can fall back quite considerably. Still do big miles though, so it isn't necessarily a problem.
We have forgotten perhaps your primary reason for asking this question - you are intending to pressure feed the cylinder head, or not ?? Or this is a feelgood exercise of more oil through the big ends - if some is good, more is gooder.
Were 1960s Nortons known for oiling related problems in the bottom ends, that need to be addressed ??
There is a lot of chat on the NOC Forum about oil pumps and more oil - with some quite widely differing views and results, it must be said. As the motors got bigger the flow was increased, but thats about the only consensus ? Cheers.
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"Your hose example would seem to be somewhat of a magic act - 100 psi AND an open ended hose ??" ............ head , in barr or psi
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How does a 200+ ft high hose fit anywhere into a Nortons oiling system ...
Or have we missed something obvious ?
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Hi guys I probably could have left out the hose example, however it is correct, if you take a hose up a hill and pump water into it at the bottom you will need pressure to get your water to the top of the hill and that pressure will need to exceed the head. 100ft of head requires 43.31 psi to meet the height, so if you only have say 43 psi you will be able to see the water gets very near the end of the hose but does not come out. www.the engineering toolbox.com
I am not planning to pressure feed the cylinder head and you are correct it is more of the feel good thingy, build the newish engine and give her a bit more oil by only adding the six start gears if it has merritt.
I remain of the belief that increasing the speed of the pump will increase volume and pressure as there are already restrictions in the system so adding more flow will affect pressure from the original setup to what degree is the debatable element.
Thanks for your comments.
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BTW, if the pressure relief valve was removed from a Norton, the oil pump would successfully push oil out of a 200+ ft high pipe - gear pumps (with tighter tolerances admittedly) can generate pressures well in excess of 2000 psi.
Nortons pump is somewhat smaller than pumps typically used for this, so the volume would be low.
Somewhat of a red herring thrown into this present discussion ?
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Correct in theory as you say and by that definition you agree that the gear pump will pump more flow with more rpm and therefore with this particular engine there will occur some more pressure however slight?
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"I remain of the belief that increasing the speed of the pump will increase volume and pressure as there are already restrictions in the system so adding more flow will affect pressure from the original setup to what degree is the debatable element."
if the restrictions remain the same this is true
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Posted at about the same time.
Have you checked what pressure your pressure relief valve is actually set for ?
And how the pressure stands up in its present setup.
Simply shimming the relief valve to a higher pressure will push more oil through the motor, rather than dumping in back into the timing cover - and potentially superheating the oil if it does a lot of simply recirculating.
The Commando (later ones) altered the way the oil was dumped out of the relief valve.
This helped prevent churning and superheating.
While there may be no harm in upping the oil pump speed/output, there may be no benefit either- if it all simply goes out the relief valve.
Nortons weren't known for bottom end oiling problems - in fact they were considered one of the strongest of the times ??
If it ain't broke...
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Yes good point, I do not know what pressure I can expect in the first place as I have not been able to check a running engine
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Moving on.
Was the original Speedo drive on the back hub 2:1 ratio?
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Yes good point, I do not know what pressure I can expect in the first place as I have not been able to check a running engine
The workshop manual should give that vital number.
Earlier dommies were 40 psi (I think, without rustling up the handbook).
It was upped a bit by the time of the Commando = 50 or 55 psi ??
Since its all external to the motor itself, can all be attended to later if necessary.
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Was the original Speedo drive on the back hub 2:1 ratio?
What does the parts book say - and what speedo do you have. ?
Doing it by the book is the only way, unless you are improvising
22888 is Nortons/Smiths number for early 1960s, but has a few more later type numbers ?
It is listed as 2:1 Norton triumph BSA fitment.
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Its a Smith's chronometric SC 3303/17. 1548
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Someone on the NOC states that thats a 120 mph chrono, correct for 1961 Nortons and thereabouts
(SS and 650 had 150 mph !).
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Great news! (for me) I have found a well regarded 45 year veteran Norton Mechanic who has started to reassemble my engine! When you can be shown first hand by someone it helps join the dots big time! not so much the reassembly but the little things, minor modifications here and there that one would never think of.
Interestingly he regularly puts the six start gears on the early oil pumps as normal practice and enlarges the oil gallery specifically for feeding about twice the oil to the top end, allowing us to utilise the scrolled rocker shafts. He also said it was quite common to put the 3 start gears on the later pump with a similar outcome.
He commented that putting a late model/Commando 6 start geared pump on the pre 1963 engine causes excess oil consumption from flooding the crank case among other things.
Paul Dunstall's Norton Tuning book chapter 5, sheds some light on this also. (should have read this before starting the war of the oil pumps! ;D ::)) Notably Dunstall refers to the 6 start gears being made for the older pumps as a special modification before becoming standard fixtures on the later pumps. It seems my question about putting six start gears on an early pump was asked by someone over 54 years ago!!! ;)
The plan now is to go 60 oversize with the pistons and repair the other barrel with the broken fins as it will clean up at 20 oversize leaving me with a good spare.
wetdog and a couple of other people a few pages back recommended staying with the 60 oversize, when I was contemplating sacrilege and cutting up my original barrel (thanks for the good advice). When I commented about my original plan to the Norton mechanic he banished me to the naughty corner of his workshop for a few minutes to contemplate my own stupidity! :-[ ;D
FYI I understand there is someone in the UK I think, who has had a number of (50)thou over pistons made and there may be some still available for a model 88, I am not able to use them, I will ask for details if anyone needs them?
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Unless he assesses how much oil the pressure relief valve is bypassing, all this may be for nought though ?
The scavenge side of the pump has more capacity than the feed side, so the sump should never be overfull, no matter which pump is fitted ?
Its unclear too from those words how he is getting twice the oil to the top end ?
Pressure fed, or off the scavenge side. ?
Flooding the top end with oil is where many attempts to 'upgrade' the oil pump come unstuck.
??
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The really important bit we should ask (again) is if the crank has been split, to check if the sludge trap is clean ot not. ?
Nortons without oil filters have a sludge trap in the crank, that can fill up and block off oil flow to the big ends if not cleaned out. Not good....
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Hi All,
I think it should be the other way round with plain rocker spindles for a pressure fed top end?
The scrollled spindles will allow too much oil to the head if fed under pressure
This floods the head with oil and much smoke ensues :-[
I have had a lot of these problems when building a 99 from parts, it had a six start oil pump gear fitted
I dont know if the oilways were modified but doubt it
It also spews oil out the crankcase breather
I now have the original 3 start gears and am going to fit those when time permits
I believe the final Commando set up was to divert the oil from the PRV back to the feed side of the pump ??
as this lessened the excess amount of oil thrashing around in the crankcase
Regards
John
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Hi John
Thanks for your comments
I have now fitted a Commando oil pump with 3 start gears, my old small pump had too much lash meaning it would allow oil to run out of the tank into the crankcase when not running.
My situation is: Commando pump. 3 start gears, return fed rockers, oil feed galley to the pump enlarged to 1/4in, by pass valve set to 60psi, scrolled rocker shafts, standard dominator valve guides, barrels honed with 360-400 grit.
The oiling system with the above setup keeps equilibrium up to 4500 RPM I am told.
The enlarged oil feed galley prevents cavitation usually caused by installing a higher volume pump.
Pressure fed top end in a dominator requires Commando guides with seals and plain spindles to prevent excess oil burning as you say.
Cylinder honing with 360-400 grit is important as a courser hone will cause excess oil burn during running in and beyond most likely.
I should have my motor re=assembled this week and hope to have the bike running within the Month
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Question.....
In the attached photo you can see a swage in the frame on the right hand side top bar oposite to the tank rubber, the bloke who is doing my engine saw the frame for the first time yesterday and commented that it was there for the Manx engine as a rule and we pondered why it would be used in the Dominator.
Any history on it out there?
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It is so that overhead singles will fit in the frame particularly Model 19's as they had taller barrels
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Thanks Bomber
So was it normal for the frame to be generic so to speak? One frame fits all for a time in Nortons history?
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The Model 19 engine was never fitted into a featherbed.
And the Manx engine was not fitted into a slimline, nor into roadbike frames.
Not from the factory, anyway.
And other slimlines don't all have that flat there.
ES2 and Model 50 (single cylinders) will though.
We can't quite recall the finer points of this earlier thread - does the frame number match the engine no.
If not, this bike might have some single cylinder history to it ?
Or, maybe we need someone with this particular year and model of frame to comment...
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The numbers are matching and the frame is very clean, the swage? is clearly factory made and as far as I know it is a slimline feather bed frame?
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It most definitely is a slimline. (Can you amend this thread title ?).
Maybe someone with that year and model can confirm if their twin cylinder frame has that flat.
Other years and models don't - this 61 Manxman for example
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/ODk5WDE2MDA=/z/uykAAMXQlgtS5WF6/$_57.JPG
Single cylinder models will though.
Another puzzling Norton inconsistency ?
P.S. Can we see a view of the front engine mounts, or is there a previous view.
The front engine mounts are different between singles and twins.
Maybe Nortons used up frames initially intended for singles if stocks ran low ?
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Hi Guys
I tried to change the subject line some time ago but it didn't stick, I will have another go.
Does this picture work?
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Could you re send the manxman pic it didn't open for me, applied myself and changed the title of the thread! (not so hard) ::)
Cheers
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Looks like you'll have to cut-n-paste the link into your browser.
Ebay have made it hard (deliberately ?) to link to pics.
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Yes your right R, classic case of engaging mouth before brain was in gear... :-\
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Thanks R
Tried the cut and paste, no matter I get the picture so to speak. Motor is nearly done just waiting for the pistons to arrive, the head is done with 3 new oversize guides and one custom fitted due to previous bad fitting and a small crack repaired. Put in unleaded friendly seats and black diamond vales all to standard specs.
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The assembly process is now under way, pistons have arrived, $400.00 AUD landed here. New valve springs, retainers, collets and rocker adjusters.
The engine and gear box is in the frame and will fit the barrels and head tomorrow
More photos to come
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All sounds like very rapid progress !
Did the pistons match the bore straight out of the box - for clearance.
And the sludge trap in the crank was clean and unobstructed ?
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The bore is being matched to the pistons today, they took a little longer to get here than I thought they would.
I did the sludge in the crank way back and the mechanic did it again just for good measure!
I am on a roll now and as soon as the rear hub is bored and sleeved we can lace the wheels, so watch this space!
Have a cloth wiring loom coming and the mechanic had an original main switch in his cupboard not to mention the genuine Lucas tail light!
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Progress Photos
I learned a valuable trick from my mechanic that I am sure most of you experienced people already knew, fitting the pistons by putting them in the barrels first and then fitting the gudgeon pins from underneath the barrel is a great time saver and far easier than risking breaking a ring, not to mention not having to disassemble the ring compressors from underneath the barrels!
Even after having done conventional car engines I am ashamed to say I don't think I would have considered this method! :P
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The oiling system with the above setup keeps equilibrium up to 4500 RPM I am told.
The enlarged oil feed galley prevents cavitation usually caused by installing a higher volume pump.
Pressure fed top end in a dominator requires Commando guides with seals and plain spindles to prevent excess oil burning as you say.
This shows that just because somebody has been doing something a long time does not mean that they know what they are doing.
The only reason that excess oil would collect in the bottom of a Norton twin is if more is being sent to the engine than is returned to the oil tank. If fitting 6-start gears onto an early Dominator with and "S" pump puts too much oil into the sump then either the big-end shells are really loose, or the oil return inside the oil tank needs to be opened up a bit to let more oil into the tank and less to the top end.
I have put many thousands of miles on early Dominators fitted with the large pump and fast gears with no excess oil collecting in them at all, and that includes a stock bike with no other modifications anywhere.
For a touring bike like a single-carb 88 or 99, any correctly installed new parts will improve the oiling system.
As far as a slimline Dominator having a single cylinder frame goes, after half a century it is anyone's guess as to what the bike has been through. If you get a close-up photo of the numbers stamped in your frame I can compare their script to the several original Dominator and single frames I have laying around here. In the meantime here are photos of both original single and twin slimline frames for you to compare to each other yours, notice the difference in the front engine mount and how the kink in the top tube is put in the single:
Twin:
(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t31/1039559_637100479670554_184426577_o.jpg)
Single:
(https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t31/1147025_589956501051619_1364738924_o.jpg)
For more photos of these frames and the bikes they belong to go to:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Norton-Manxman-SportSpecial-and-racing-motorcycles/187441501303123
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There has to be some oil at least pooling in the crankcase, for the oil pump scavenge to function...
Don't recall if its been mentioned here yet, but one of the reasons the oil pump was 'improved' back then was the addition of oil squirt holes in the conrods. This was a (misguided) attempt to solve piston seizing problems - the pistons themselves were eventually identified as the problem. Adding more oil flow capability/pressure doesn't improve anything if all the extra oil simply gets bypassed out the oil pressure relief system....
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Hi Beng
My frame is the same as your photo of the "twin" including the engine mounts from what I can see, however mine has the flat looking exactly the same as your "single" frame.
When I stripped the frame down there was no sign of re welding of the engine mounts that was visible after blasting that I can recall and the engine and frame number are the same.
May be you see something in this picture I don't I will send the frame number photo when I can find it.
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I found the next project! It is what I set out looking for in the first place when I found the 88. The Commando needs a lot of TLC! The engine and gear box are actually working! This bike has been sitting for about 13 years in a shipping container. It seems to be a 1974 MK2A Roadster or high rider I think?
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Roadster. The HiRider has seriously tall handlebars and seat.
Although mechanically they are all the same underneath.
Nice looking find - a good wax and polish, and you'll be off riding into the sunset. !
Something has happened at those exhaust ports, examine carefully.
P.S. Show us how the 88 comes out when down....
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Yes should be running the 88 next weekend fingers crossed! Will post good before and after photos as a finale for it.
The commando head has had threaded Ali pipe welded directly to the head sadly and it needs valves as the stems are badly worn. The good news though is it appears to have just had a fresh set of pistons, rings bearings and been bored to +20thou only.
Needs a little more than a polish to ride it though, cables, brakes and carby all need work but it was a very good price so I am happy to bring her back to her forma glory.
Were the extra high bars, headlight and different seat the only difference between the high-rider and the roadster? The original paint looks like burnt orange or similar, is there some clue there other than the obvious "it could have been re-painted at any time?"
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A Mate of mine just sent me this photo of a few bikes!!! Just south of the the QLD NSW Boarder here, he was riding with some mates through the back country when they happened on this old truck that appeared to have been sitting for many years, but just check out the payload. and NO its not photo shop!! He said he would have had a closer look but he was sure he could hear some banjos playing.
The truck is not on a road it's just sitting there in the middle of a field miles from anywhere.......... Funny old world........... :)
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That truck photo is just weird.
Must be an interesting story behind it.
Obviously not collectible...
Hadn't clocked that small headlamp - could be the HiRider one.
The HiRider also had a very small slim tank, and is now a Roadster version.
Where is this original paint ?
Tangerine was a HiRider colour (an orangy red),
and Fireflake Golden Bronze was a metallic orange on Roadsters,
as was Signal Orange (on earlier models, not sure about for 850's).
Are the tank and sidecovers steel ?
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The side covers are in near perfect condition and were painted over what I would call hot orange/red which would coincide in my mind with your orangy red. The tank though was painted over black but in saying that it has clearly had a small repair done and been fully repainted so I think it is possibly a replacement tank, it is a very narrow tank too.
I guess I can make it either.........?
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That red tank on it now is a Roadster tank.
The HiRider tank was slimmer and smaller capacity again...
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I have just looked at an original high-rider picture and I was rather hoping mine wasn't one! ::) the tank on mine is different to the high-rider I looked at as you say and the bike was sold to me as a roadster so I will steady my mind to that path.. I am repainting the tank and side covers as they are badly blistered with osmosis from being stored in a container.
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Heyhey, HiRiders don't have much of a fan club...
1953 88 frame currently on offer looks to have that flat in the frame tube.
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/ODk5WDE2MDA=/z/BToAAOxyLm9TE-H3/$_57.JPG
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I see it and I note they call it all of these things;
1953 Norton Dominator Model 7 88 99 Atlas 500cc Manx *467 Featherbed frame
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Nice pick up on the Commando Kiwi. Always thought they were a good thing.
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Thanks murdo
I am pretty chuffed, I've always wanted one since I first saw one and they are a cool piece of kit
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being rode thro Adalaid last year
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Really close now, I am just waiting for the wheels to be trued by an expert company. Hopefully petrol in the tank on Saturday and a kick pants!
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Hi All
I am eating some humble pie as a result of making bold statements about when my bike would be finished! But finally she is a runner! Still not quite finished though! still need a rear brake lever and fit the knee pads + I am borrowing a carby until I can find a mono-bloc 1/16.
I still have the original front brake hub, I put the commando one on just for riding.
It is as original as it can be and I have not used any Indian copy or re-pro parts as far as I am aware at least and certainly as is reflected in the state of my wallet!!
Thanks for all the help over the year everyone! This has been a great forum.
Now on to the Commando then!
Kind Regards
Eryn
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Very nice, very nice indeed.
If that was my bike, that front brake/wheel would stay there.
Been for a test ride yet ?
Or tour around the island....
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Shes done 20 miles, but I am waiting for a rear brake lever so I can get a road worthy cert and registered for the road. I am over the moon with it! That front brake is way better than I expected too.
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Hope its ok to post in an old topic like this but it is relevant to the bike.
Has anyone had an experience with needing two extra clutch plates in the post 1956 AMC clutch on a Domi?
I had brought the clutch basket complete from the USA as a second hand unit, however it started slipping and I ordered new friction plates (5) including the half plate, however they do not fill the basket enough for the pressure plate (spring plate) to squeeze the clutch pack.
The old plates were corroded under the linings distorting the width and the plates were only touching the high spots. (don't ask why I didn't notice this!) ???
The pressure plate I have does not have a shoulder as such and is 12mm narrower than the standard plate?
Was this a modification to make a stronger clutch??
can someone shed any light on this?
Cheers
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I would suggest you pack up the dimension with one or more of your old plates.The Norton owners club would be the place to find out the nitty gritty of the problem.I used to be a member,but got sick of subsidizing the pommy economy by paying membership fees of various one make clubs.Otherwise,one of the Norton spares sellers would help,IF you have bought parts from them<and it sounds like you have.Nevertheless,a fix is what you need,not quotations from some obscure parts list.Regards John.
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Yeah Thanks John, you are right, I will contact Norvil and see what they say, it just seemed strange that there would be two extra plates and I thought maybe it had been a mod for an Atlas or something with more grunt. I purchased the clutch as a Model 88 part and as this was my first Norton I didn't know better at the time.
Cheers
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Remember Matchless used a similar [same?] clutch, some parts from earlier[pre AMC]Nortons are nearly identical,[and throw in the Atlas],and also mods sold only on the US market for bikes like the G15CSR and P11 Ranger, and the small thing of forty years passing,and who knows? Old bikes are the art of the possible,perfectionists who memorize parts lists all night are ok for info,but don't take too much notice of them.Strangely ,the same person who picks all sorts of faults with your bike will then turn up with an electric starter fitted to his allegedly "correct " restoration.Regards John.
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The parts book shows that the AMC clutch came in 3 versions BEFORE the clutch for the SS models, and they could variously have 3, 4 or 5 bonded and 3, 4 or 5 plain steel plates - without a pic sounds like you are involved in this .
Do you have the bonded one side only on the top of the stack ?
How thick are your bonded plates. ?
Can you get a 6th bonded and a steel in there ?
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Thanks R
I do have the one side bonded plate
two more plates one steel and one bonded both sides will fit in, I may have miss interpreted the parts list that simply says in the order for; "5 required", I took to mean 4 plus the one sided plate.
However in my case I am still one steel short even if I get one more bonded plate, which threw me off a bit.
I will snap a photo tonight
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The later AMC clutches in the parts books show 5 double sided bonded plates, 5 steels,
AND the half bonded plate.
Cheers.
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Fixed the clutch, 5 of each it is plus the half plate and the slim pressure plate.