classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: johnnyboy-wonder57 on January 26, 2013, 01:27:39 PM
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A dilemma of dichotomy Wide or Slim?:
Which is the best choice of Norton's Reynold's frame or is there nothing between them?
Of the Wide-line:
Steve Wilson's book:
The 1950s version, was the so-called "Wide-line" variants, rather broad for the rider as the seat & tank had to be wider than the frame rails. The steering lock was restrictive, the seat was high, the suspension not soft...so therefore better ridden two up.
C.E. Titch Allen said, "...way ahead of anything else....a standard that became the yardstick by which other machines of the era werse judged...It did not have to be held on any line with a conscious effort. The mere transfer of thought between machine and rider are merely enough......."
Steve Wilson's book:
Of the Slim-line:1960s: As fitted to Norton's 650SS.......
" The Slimline was said by some to cause a slight reduction in handling virtuosity, but if so, it was only at racing speeds"*,
Individuals, in the UK, have said to me that the Slim-line is more comfortable to ride & a better frame all round, yet lots of specialist builders still stick to the Wide-line!
Any thoughts or opinions, hopefully based on experience, before I purchase a frame this year?
I had more of less decided on a Slim-line, but.....* . I know it says racing speeds, but I wanted something "on rails" like the old trains! Good handling, throughout the bikes full performance, so to speak, is a key necessity.
Cheers
John
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i like the slim line as the wide line i find to wide , but the best handling machine i have had is a 1979 moto guzzi and when you look at the frame its very much like the featherbed , but for a good thrash around with ok performance and it does handle the power its got i take this , and find it runs rings round any triumph i have
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Wetdog,
Steve Wilson on Goldies....
" In their first years till 1954 Gold Stars had their own production line, staffed & manned by knowledgeable experts. When demand meant production shifted to a regular assembly line quality suffered."
Around this time Turner a keen fan of twins, ( no surprises here, especially twins from the rival Triumph factory in Coventry), stopped further development of the Gold Star in 1955ish at BSA.
Sales of B31 350cc roadster peaked in 1955, Turner now head of BSA Automotive Division, considered singles outmoded.
Apparently several mature & reflective riders, considered the 350cc Gold Star to be the pleasanter machine, more tractable at low rev's & faster through the gears.
However, when,(racing & chasing), 500cc, 600 & 650cc twins, it was considered you needed all the cubes you could get, even though some 350s clocked up to 90mph, (they couldn't reach the magic ton+), required by the "Fast crowd".
The cult of the DBD34 500cc model, it is stated, emerged from Eddie Dow's, Gold Star centre in Banbury Oxfordshire, the top speed & strength of a Race tuned DBD, (paid dividends), especially with a Dow 10:1 Slipper piston, but tractability was lost at lower speeds......
I know that some competition Gold Stars had 531 frames.
Triumphs, were never renown for sure-footed, fail-safe handling. I read somewhere that the 500cc Daytona, was probably one of the best performing bikes of the later twins, but larger cc figures on side-panels, sells machines, so it was largely ignored.
Its never gone away the theory that, the size of your penis is directly related to the number of cc's on your side-panel, often though, when you meet the owner, (they do not realise it, but,) its an inverse relationship!
Now a 700-800 cc is considered a middle-weight machine!
OK then, 1 positive vote for the Slim-line is recorded!
Cheers
John
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In the early 70s I had a mate who drove a lorry round Manchester. One afternoon he called and said " There´s a skip full of stuff out the back of Reg Deardens". I gave most of it away to mates who had Nortons.
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Johnnyboy-wonder i have all that info also , this hack is a 1953 and dated on the cases as all where tested , was a scrambler but im to old so put it on the road for some fun (as i will my dbd) still on the 2446s , 0 to 70 is very good and handeling is excellent , and a lot smoother with the belt drive , triumph alterd the frames later as swing arm area was very poor as was head stock , i have found the bsa frame much stronger than the triumphs i have (up to 57) i would but this machine against any 500 triumph , norton of the same year for scrachablity / fun ........what are you going to but in your featherbed frame
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The 875cc Hillman Imp engine I have got, one of two i am cleaning up & restoring at the moment!
Cheers
John
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Remember this!
Peter Dent's machine!
The other photo is a Norton/matchless hybrid desert racer, build by my uncle in Tel-el-Kibir in Egypt in 1947, he was working with a team of ex-Rommel Panzer Grenadiers & they built quite a few bikes, converting side-valve Norton's to OHV machines & then raced them. Dave Bennett was with him, he later raced for Norton & was killed in the 1952 Swiss Grand Prix. I have a photo of him as a young man with my Uncle in the British Army posted on National service.
I did post about this subject before but no-one seemed to interested so I let the thread go!
cheers
John
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Photos have disappeared!
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http://suite101.com/article/dave-bennett-a162770 (http://suite101.com/article/dave-bennett-a162770)
Dave Bennett was the very tall lad in the photo in Tel-el-Kibir!
John
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I have a couple of widelines... fitted with an Imp and a T150v, both of which manage to give me a little grief in the inner thigh dept, but I must say it's not of the order to make me unhappy about riding them and I'm 6'3". I have a Model 50 Slimline which is a bit more pleasurable to ride, but sadly a lot less enjoyable in grunt!
All three of the bikes handle impeccably and there is little to choose between them.
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there was a featherbed imp on ebay about two weeks ago , interesting but not buying anymore bikes for now , but the one i would be interested in is the sunbeam s7/s8 fitted with a vw engine , looked nice and id say easy to work on
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We had a VW in a Douglas once. will post funny things under Sport ,sandracing
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I read somewhere, and it seemed to make sense at the time, that the change to an alternator with longer crank and altered weight distribution around the same time could have been responsible for a change in handling.
The fact that Manxes were wideline is always going to make the Wideline style more desirable.
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Hi,
I love singles & fours, even though I have a lontitudinal in-line 3! The Rondine, the Gilera & then the MV's, it was so obvious that the British factories need a 4 to race & I think/believe, because this did not happen, our industry later imploded! An adapted Coventry Climax engine could have fitted the bill, who was running the industry idiots!
Somewhere, I have a road test of an early, MV Four & in it, it states it shimmied in corners & they put it down to being a transverse- 4 arrangement, that is, the cause of the slight wobble was thought to be because the engine was mounted across the frame.
When there wasn't, a lot of transverse- 4s around, people/riders, noticed this characteristic, compared to other engine arrangements. With the Imp engine you can take your choice where to put the alternator, on the crank or mounted some place behind it, on an auxiliary casting/ bracket and belt driven.
With a Featherbed frame you can also, (if clever), have some slight adjustment in longitudinal position, but generally I have been told the more forward the position of the engine the better the handling?
Phil' irving, had some constructive thoughts, about weight distribution and the height of engine instalment with regards to space available.
There's a theory that the Slimline came about, because they were going to "bathtub" the Dominator! However, it is recorded that road riders complained that the Wide-line was uncomfortable over long distances.
How can I stop those old photos, pixelating?
On my K75, if I loaded a tank bag on it, full of stuff & it handled better! Weight high up & forward of rider!
Now, there's so many 4's around, perhaps people do not notice, handling quirks any more. However, possibly a narrowish engine width is a valuable asset, the thing about handling characteristics & building a special, is that you can hopefully iron out any idiosyncrasies, this is not as easy with a bog standard, factory restoration.
Now going back to watching, Girl on a Motorcycle &The Wild Ones on YouTube!
Cheers
JBW
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"On my K75, if I loaded a tank bag on it, full of stuff & it handled better!" exactly the same on my k100 rat , now over 200,000 miles and going strong
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Wetdog,
Mines a 1991 K75s, the front Fairing is crap for rattling apart over poorly maintained roads & when I put it back on the road I will have to find an after-market, replacement front fairing for it! I have had trouble with a newly fitted Continental keep going down on the front, which I haven't been able to cure.
However, the bike is rock solid on motorways, but has never liked twisty bits that much, I played with oil in the forks and rode it round Ramsgate town, early one Sunday morning, 3 circuits each time, it was like having my own TT, in the end it handled better with 20/50s in the forks. The forks were the only bit I didn't rebuild when I got the machine!
Wink, has Reg Dearden's gone now as a Dealership? I think he may have been the first dealer who created the Imp-engined Norton'. I grew up in Chorley & occasionally wondered into Manchester. I have in a book, "Built For Speed", in it there is an article about a Black Lightening sprint bike, he built for Bonneville, after a rider's, tragic accident, who was meant to ride it, it was never run & consequently sold off!
Cheers
John
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fairing etc went when i throw it down the road as did the rear of the frame ,bent , i almost scraped the bike but insted bought it back of the insurance for £100 , its been a great bike and i also run 20/50 in the front forks , i use it far more than any british i own and it has never let me down , makes me wonder why i bother with any other bikes at all .
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Wetdog, et al,
It looks like many people have Feather-beds & either do not ride them, or do not have any opinions on their handling & riding characteristics, or can't type or be bothered to comment!
So many people with absolutely nothing to say, Yes folks, welcome to Modern Britain!
Or should I be asking, what does it push like, when it glides over the spare bedroom carpet, in a vacuum packed bag, can you feel the nature of the beast?
I remember a campaign some years ago, " Ride it don't Hide it", but as bike values go up & people get older, criminal interests have heightened, it was probably on a loser, plus traffic conditions have got more challenging from avoiding penalty points to avoiding idiots on the road. I also remember in the 1970s, when bikes jumped up in price, weight, capacity, power & kudos, suddenly the death rate of riders shot up & Bike magazine reckoned it was because many rider's wouldn't let their machines go in the event of an accident, clinging on, often with fatal results , instead of kicking away their precious steed & having a better chance of survival!
Cheers
JBW
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what would be a minimum cost for say a 18 year old to get into british bikes now ? which model ? lets say he has a full bike licence
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£600 for a Bantam?
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So many people with absolutely nothing to say, Yes folks, welcome to Modern Britain!
Strange comment. I find too many people these days (not limited to "Modern Britain") have too much to say, and it's nearly all total bollix.
Never rode a Feathererbed, never owned a Featherbed so no comment to make, although if you like I can rehash all the various tales and myths regarding the Featherbed and pass it off as considered opinion?
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Rex,
Please Do!
"So many people with absolutely nothing to say,(constructively, about important issues say individual freedoms)".
Cheers
JBW
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Rex,
I'm waiting for Tales of a Featherbed to start!
JBW
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OK then, as everyone knows, it was designed by Tommy MiCandles on the back of a Guinness beer mat in Dublin, he took the design to Pa Norton who had one built and first time out it won every race it could. Poor old Geoff Minter tried riding it but his legs were too fat so they had the Slimline frame designed and then he won the Paris-Dakar on it.
You can now buy new ones and fit your own engine, everything from Harley to Jap-crap has been tried and it will then out-handle and out-brake anything up to 200MPH.
This is resume of facts told to me by a bloke down the pub and various Classic Bike articles over the years, and now it's on the Internet so it must be true. ;)
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they where good in there day , but dont handle the power from monsters like hinkley triumph triple engines
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But there has been a Hinkley Triumph 3(90bhp?) in a Featherbed, for sale, I think on Evilbay last year, people also put Vincent & JAP engines in Featherbeds!
Bob Berry's J.A.P 8-80, Modified 1930s O.E.C framed, Record Breaker clocked 150mph @ Pendine sands & had a claimed output of 104bhp @ 6,800rpm, compression ratio was 14.6 front, 14.2 rear cylinder on alcohol fuel!
I never heard of a V- twin having different compression ratios before, would this be intentional, or was one cylinder weaker in performance than the other?
Another J.A.P Sprinter, built by Francis Williams put out 95bhp @6,500-7,000rpm, fitted were more studier crankcases from a 1,100cc racing car engine, Frame & cycle parts were from a 1952/3/4 Long-stroke 350 Manx Norton!
Was the J.A.P engine, superior to the Brough and Mighty Vincent I wonder, could the engine be used in a Road burner as a Hayabusa eater?
Imagine the faces of riders on modern Super-Sports machines, being caught up by an antique looking beast from the 1930s/50s
Cheers
JBW
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a Hayabusa eater?......................... no ...............ive rode a hinkley featherbed triple , only good in straight lines , on slow bends power on set up a weave a bit like a 59 bonnie , useless
here we are death trap http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/150986755329?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
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That's not the bike I saw, there must be 2 or more, I agree absolute power isn't everything, it where it comes in & how you can use it! The chassis must be faster than the engine so the theory goes!
I meant a J.A.P engine beast.........burbling along.....
Cheers
JBW
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jap engine Hayabusa eater no sorry .............. have you any bikes ? apart from the k75 ( which is a good bike ) or just dreaming
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Yes!
What you inferring...
You & Rex are not going to gang up on me are you?
Cheers
JBW
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no me and rex dont see things the same (useualy) he thinks im a pykie living in a small flat , he might be right , but i do think you maybe a dreamer , and to still have a morgage at your age is unusual , leave the bikes alone and buy the house first , after all they are only toys
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Far be it of me to want to get into an Internet pissing contest, but I don't think any such thing about you, Mr Dog.
The only subject I can recall that would be even faintly connected with that is where I posted that tax evaders are immoral, to which you replied something along the lines of "then you must be a mug" or something similar.
I've never made any reference to your home or ethnicity, but then why would I? You're just another name on another web-site to me, and of no more interest than any one else.
Sorry, but there it is..
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thats alzimers for you rex , you just dont notice it............................ "I wouldn't pay too much heed Bomber. On another forum he used to claim he lived on a patch of land and trapped rabbits to eat. I'm guessing it's probably just a lonely soul in a little council flat somewhere..."
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Sorry Rex but I recall that too
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we are all still laughing about it down here , and made the topic more interesting , no offence was taken
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Hmm it must be Alzheimers then. I can only apologise, although I shall have to look back to see the context.
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I can only apologise ? dont it was a laugh no offence taken
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Wetdog,
Do'nt you F***ing dare tell me to leave bikes alone, I'm 55, fit, agile and usually tell people, (when I feel their out of line to their faces), not through a Keyboard and as to the age range of having a mortgage , a bit of a sweeping comment there too, your both lucky to have all that stuff, engines, knowledge, experience, presumably your both older & wiser than me, lets keep that way shall we?
I don't see motorcycles as toys either! And, (Rex & Wetdog) stop that old shite about Bomber too, we have heard it before , now either you are both Forum mates,( kiss & make up), or not, (condescending arseholes),your choice!
Oh! & Rex your mate in the pub about Feather-beds, seems to have got quite a few facts wrong.
Cheers
JBW
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Hmmm I'm off to bed, that way I won't upset anyone... night night lol
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Could we start a new page solely for slagging matches and not fill up sites about motorcycles with it.
What´s a mortgage?. I build my own houses out of scrap as well.
Did anyone watch Le Touquet beach race on Motors TV?
Why doesn´t anyone use their real name on web forums? What are we afraid of?
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jbw ................................ im shaking in me slippers ;D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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wetdog,
Take a Beechams!
JBW
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Hi,
Anyone got pictures, or a PSSR screen save of the advert of the Norimp that was on ebay on the 15th January, if so please forward to johnnyboy-wonder57@talktalk.net (http://johnnyboy-wonder57@talktalk.net).
Thanks
John Hall
JBW
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ok
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[quote author=Johnnyboy-wonder link=topic=4488.msg17025#msg17025 date=1360012046]
And, (Rex & Wetdog) stop that old shite about Bomber too, we have heard it before , now either you are both Forum mates,( kiss & make up), or not, (condescending arseholes),your choice!
Jeez, there's even more! What "old shit about Bomber" and who's heard it before?
Oh! & Rex your mate in the pub about Feather-beds, seems to have got quite a few facts wrong.
No!! ;) He didn't did he? I thought you realised it was ironic hyperbole...you didn't really think it was factual, did you? Really?
[/quote]
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Rex I don't mind... don't let it worry you. Let them call me anything they want except... LATE FOR DINNER!
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I'm not worried...but as I appear to have early Alzheimers ( ;)) I thought I might have upset you too, and wondered what it was I'm supposed to have said.
As long as it appears to worry someone else more than you, it's OK.. :D
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I decided to give a hand and sent a post into social bookmarks. I hope the popularity will rise in.
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Thanks?
JBW