classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: wetdog on March 12, 2013, 04:24:31 PM
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ANTI-WET SUMPING VALVE to me seam like a very very bad idea as gear pumps will not pump air (bsa etc) has anyone tryed one ? they are for sale on ebay but i know of one that has failed are there any others
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Hi,
Yes I have seen failures, NOT NICE !!!!!
I would stay away from them >:(
John
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I'm not defending them, but Velocettes used them as stock. they have a gear pump?But the feed pipe must be primed (filled) with oil first. If all your oil has wetsumped into the cases then you would have to prime first before starting after refilling tank. Still a risk factor.
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where is this valve on the velo thanks
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I fitted a brass hand pump to my Enfield so I can pump the oil back to the tank. Always gets a laugh
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i started this topic as i have a BSA A10 fitted with one of these valves which has failed , i contacted the seller of these valves as hes still selling them on ebay and pointed out that they will not open if the pump is empty as the pump will not pump air , he said he had sold 20,000 and never had any complaints which i find very hard to belive as this is only the 2nd one ive ever seen fitted and its failled , i have just recived his last coment to this and here it is in full ,
OK BRAINBOX... YOU KNOW AS MUCH ABOUT THESE VALVES AS I KNOW ABOUT BRAIN SURGERY
JUST LOOSE YOURSELF...TIME WASTER.
HOW CAN 25 YEARS OF THEM FITTED BE DISASTEROUS...YOUR JUST A THICKO
DID YOU GO TO SCHOOL???
DO YOU KNOW WHAT PULLING POWER A BSA PUMP HAS AT 1000 RPM
WHY RUN A BSA ON AIR WHEN YOU CAN USE OIL.$%^
customer relations is not his strong point ............. and i think from his reation he may of had a complaint or two
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Hi wetdog
The velo oil valve is in a fitting at the outlet of the oil tank, they dont always work either????
Original A10 pumps are made of "monkey dung" and are often porus to boot alowing the oil to leak through the pump body, :o
As you say the pump will not suck when it only has air inside !!
As for the seller of the asv ???????
maybe the pumps wern't rortten through 25 years ago??????????????????????????
John
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i have seen them but i did not know they fitted them as stock to there bikes , and dont laugh but the KSS i use most has a tap fitted , the ebayer has sold 20,000 says SRM (a company i have a lot of respect for) are talking out of there arse when they say dont fit ,and he would recomend the fitting (20,000 at £38 im not surprised but sounds like bull shit to me ) he says his valve has failed because the standard bsa valve failed , which it did , but if his valve had NOT been fitted this would have only lead to a crank case full of oil not a motor running dry , i feel this may be one to avoid
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Like John says, the original pumps were not the best but as for customer relations this guy is an epic fail!
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, the ebayer has sold 20,000 says SRM (a company i have a lot of respect for) are talking out of there arse when they say dont fit ,and he would recomend the fitting (20,000 at £38 im not surprised but sounds like bull shit to me )
Want to rewrite that? Is SRM the seller? How did SRM get involved then?
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i contacted SRM to find out if it was there valve and they said throw it as far as you can and told me where it had come from (they have seen them before ) i contacted the ebay dealer who is selling them who said SRM are talking out of there arse , they are still for sale £38 on ebay now and he states 25 years and 20000 sold so about 15 a week ? i know whos talking out of there arse here .
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This is the last message received off this charming man, my comments are in brakets , I have still to hear off anyone who has one of these valves fitted and says yes they are good
“”It is obvious you have very little knowledge of the oil system and SRM HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE of the valve either
.In FACT they never developed their conversion either, they bought it from the original developer who has been a friend of mine for over 30 years. .............‘(I also know this person and have never seen one of your valves fitted on any of his machines)Velocette fitted these external valves as standard........... (to which model please? a parts book reference would be nice)............... ours is just an improvement on theirs, using high quality stainless and a brass ball seat.
Many hours of testing, research and development went into this valve over 25 years ago, by qualified engineers. ...............(Not Martin Russel who also says no way)
As a matter of fact...the valve opens on the vacuum gauge @ between 2 and 4 inches of mercury ............ ( on air ?)............. and when the pump is revving at 1000 rpm it is pulling 30 inches of mercury on the gauge and passing 2 pints of oil every 80 seconds.............. ( as does the standard bsa pump , that’s some very interesting equipment you have there and I’ve not seen such kit since a visit to Lucas proving labs when we had a sporadic delivery problem with a pump which turned out to be internal foaming at high revs ).............. OUR VALVE WORKS EXACTLY THE SAME as a standard unit and cannot fail shut! Providing the pump is OK and doing its job, there is no difference whatsoever................. (If the pumps all good why do I need your valve? we both know the pumps where of dubious quality when new, SRMs are much better by the way).............
Both the original and our valve operate exactly the same, by suction (vacuum), failure as you put it, is when the valve let’s all the oil into the sump, therefore they are the same.............. (no yours is the wrong side of the pump)............. .Neither valve can “fail” shut! .............(Yours has no question)...............
If the oil tank is full and the pump is working, the valve is working. Sit back and think about it.............. (I have but I don’t think you have)............Oil from the tank is always on the ball of the valve, just a few inches from the oil pump
NIETHER VALVE WILL OPERATE if the scavenge side of the pump is not returning oil to the tank, and the tank runs dry, if the pump fails you will get exactly the same result as you have, whether an external valve was fitted or not........... (I’m not saying the tank is empty, you sit back and think about it)..............
We do have International Norton’s racing with these valves on, for many years.................... ( I have racing bikes and I am very surprised you have found anyone running” R” and leaving it in the tank and have never seen this, more bull shit) ...............
I still believe the fault with your engine, is due to other causes, but that’s up to you to believe what you wish.””
This is a classic case of a dealer believing his own bull shit and after selling 15 a week on average ............... (more bullshit or his maths poor)....................... he is unable to give one recommendation not even his good mate, buyer be warned
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I have used these valves for a number of years now on BSA's and not had any problem.
As others have said this type of valve was standard fit on many Velocette's, Velocette give details on priming the oil pump whenever the oil feed has been dismantled, the supplier of these valves gives no info regarding priming them, perhaps it is not needed but I always prime mine and I am very happy with the way they work.
Always as matter of course on all my old bike if they have been stood for any length of time I remove the oil cap to check the oil is returning correctly.
I understand that the supplier is well versed in all things BSA and is in the hierarchy of the BSA owners club.
Have you had the valve tested to verify it is faulty?.
Sorry to hear you have a problem but it is all to easy to blame the wrong thing for the damage, you could be quite right in saying the valve caused it but having used these valves and closely examined them I find it hard to understand how one could fail in a closed condition.
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thankyou at last some one who is useing one with good results , do you know any others , this one failed as the pump was empty , i always look for a return on my bikes also very good practise . this is what srm will say unless you phone them
www.srmclassicbikes.com
We frequently get asked the question about wet sumping. We DO NOT
recommend fitting any such non return valves on the feed side of the pump as
gear pumps are not designed to suck with no oil in ... This can result in instant
engine failure.
what opens the valve if as in this case the pump is empty
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he really should not be running a company , heres his last message , maybe high up in bsa club (i do know him) but has a bad attitude i think ,
"God bless idiots, with as much knowledge as a 2 year olds.
Tell SRM TO PUT THAT IN WRITING and my lawyer will see who are the idiots!
I have been dealing with BSA MOTORCYCLES 20 years before they even knew of SRM, and bought it!!
You want to get a life son and find the true cause of your problems.
SRM will tell you any old blurb to get work, you would be better off going to a hospital."
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If he's a big knob in the BSA club then I'm glad I sold my last BSA some months ago. He may be right or wrong in his understanding of the pump and valve workings, but what a condescending arse he sounds. :-\
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i still have a few bsa but not in the club , heres his last message , what a plonker
"As I previously said, this subject is closed ,because i have no desire to waste my time,talking to plonkers.We have dealers in CANADA, THE USA and the UK who buy in bulk from us,many times a year.
Of course we have many thousands of satisfied , intelligent, customers,but I would not disclose data protected information to such as the likes of you.
SRM do not reccommend oil filters either,or coolers, but what do they know?
Velocettes were incorrect in fitting them too then!
Remember, there are Litigation laws here in the U.K....and thats why SRM wont write anything.
However , you have,so be careful.
As I SAID BEFORE EVEN WITH TECHNICAL INFORMATION SUPPLIED it wont make no difference to you, so please fade away
i think i may have racked him off
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Hi again Wetdog.
Indeed you do seem to have "racked him off", I have used these valves on a B32, a 500 Goldie and a 350 Goldie without problem a friend also has them fitted to a 350 Goldie and a 350 AJS (in line type from same supplier) without any problem.
About three years ago my brother fitted one to an A7 which had recently had the engine rebuilt by the previous owner, it had only done around 200 miles since the rebuild and one bright but freezing winters day he took it for a run, about half a mile out he felt the engine tightening up and stopped, the engine then would not kick over and he pushed it back cursing the anti drain valve as the culprit, when he went to the bike again the engine had freed off and turned over OK, the offending valve was removed and he rang me complaining about it, I went along to check it out for him and the valve was working as it should but turning the engine over had no oil returning.
I am not saying the same happened with yours, but on the twins they can suffer a "cold seize" this had happened on my brothers bike. the freezing weather shrinks the alloy case which compresses the timing side bush onto the crankshaft, if you ride off straight away the wind cools the case even more whilst the shaft is beginning to warm, if the bush is a very close fit the shaft can force it round cutting off the oil supply to the bottom end, after sorting the main bearing bush the bike has been running without problem with the valve refitted ever since.
I hope the damage to your bike was not too bad.
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thanks . this a10 has the roller conversion timming side no bush , i notice the bikes you mention have roller big ends (not the a7) and the velo valve (i think an optional fit) also roller , no damage to the a10 as i was watching for oil return (there was none) and no oil in the line after the valve as it had not opened , valve now removed and the bike is running fine , i agree this valve will open ONLY if there is oil in the pump and feed line after the valve , if not the pump will not open the valve , the seller thinks it will but i can assure anyone reading this it will not , the result engine rebuild ........... my ajs 36 250 is a bike that has never wet sumped even after standing for years one of the sweetest running singles ever made . thanks for your help
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a freind has dropped round one of the valves velo used to fit if asked to do so , very nice includes the filter and screws into the tank , i still would not fit personally but i can see how you could prime the delivery pipe easy , but the thing my freind is selling for inline fitment on bsa is not so easy due to the route of this pipe and the location of the valve , close to the pump and lyeing on its side , all in all not as good as the velo item (no surprise there ) and not as well thought out .
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Yebbut, nothing is as well thought out as a Velocette... :)
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Rex i could not agree more (god that hurt) ;D
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Stoppit, or you'll have that Johnny Boy bloke down on you again.... :-X
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I emailed jbw and apologised for my comments and said I need to learn when to keep my mouth shut or my fingers still (don’t all shout at once ) he has other things going on and I wish him well , and this site has gone quiet since he left
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Good God, pigs might fly.... one day!