classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: wetdog on March 27, 2013, 09:22:54 PM
-
pionner cancelled started to look at some papper work i have reguards a machine i own sent this to the sunbeam club
thankyou , its come to light as i intend running the machine this year
and have been flicking thro the papper work ,
the certificate is dated 21st may 1944 .... and states machine
register number 28 , also signed by a mr mc nabe and mr N Ryan . but
someone has writen over the top number 664 ? what does the apmc hold
this machine as , 1914 humber reg xc +++ , can i have a new certificate
with the correct number on ? if not why not and who has number 28 now
and how did they get it . Its a minnor thing i know but i will not let
part of the history of the machine go , i am not a member of the apmc
or sunbeam club but i am keen to see the machine out . thankyou
seam to be not very helpfull any one else had a problem like this , i have all the origional papper work and now started i will not give up .
-
It's like banging your head against a wall my friend..... it's pleasing when you stop!
-
yes i see what you mean , they do seam to have a habit of loseing things inc emails , this is there reply
"OBM can advise but not in a position to confirm if this machine is on the register.
This register is held by the Sunbeam MCC and covered by the Data Protection Act.
I have access to the register, had you given me DVLA reg: number and the Pioneer Register number ( they have had both of these )
I could answer your question, but John will have to issue a new certificate. ( with the number 28 i hope )
Hope this helps. krgds, Ian.
-
sorted the sunbeam register is worthless as it was started again some time in the 50s ? if they could let me know when they intend starting it again i would like number 1 , i have talked to the hitler who runs the register now and said i will keep number 28 thanks , he said no as they gave it to someone else , in the 50s ........ what a waste of papper . he also said if i try and enter the pionner i will be ban , i preffer the banbury in any case ..... if anyone out there knows where number 28 machine is now i would love to know when he got that number , as the whole thing stinks ..... and no i wont be joining the sunbeam club as theyve started acting like the bently club . o and i have number 28 and have all the origional papper work to prove it its a 1914 Humber cert siged by Mcnabe 21st may 1944
what a joke
To ensure that all machines taking part are genuine veterans, a register of all such machines was started in 1938 (and then restarted in the 50s they forgot to add that part on there web site ) , and only those machines on the register became eligible to enter the event, with a dating committee formed to check authenticity of machines going on the register. The Pioneer Register quickly became a major information source for pre-1915 motorcycles
-
got this off the sunbeam club
" the re-numbering was carried out just after the war, and the persons involved are now well dead. But I can asure you that records to date are correct."
no mention of this on there site , the fact a official of any club is dead is no esscuse and should never be used , its called history and is usually based on what dead persons have done or said in the past . I would love to see a copy of the cert number 28 and when this was issued (which i wont get ) but id put money on it being much much later than the 1940s .
-
Got this today my concerns are in brackets
No. 28 is now allotted to another machine of 1911
.. (someone trying to fabricate a history for a machine it has not got no doubt )
but I can't tell what date that was applied,
..( its on the register so should read will not )
. but I would suggest it was over 20 year's ago
.(so could be as recent as 1992)
.. And is now history.
The highly regarded esteemed sunbeam club there words not mine, what a bunch of tossers , there register even has the registration wronge for the machine , theyve managed to add an extra number on the end , some history register theyve got there
-
by the way Bomber this is a quote from a sunbeam official , have you dealing with them yourself
"You seem to be beating you head against a brick wall"
-
;D
-
you normally have more to say , are you a sunbeam club member by any chance :(
-
Certainly not.... you said it all, couldn't elaborate on your comments.
-
You΄ll probably get it sorted just in time for them to ban bikes over 98 years old.
-
i think this one will never be sorted as the 3 sunbeam club officials who have contacted me (one holds the upto date records ) or should i say up to date for now untill he dies then they will probably start again , have all said end of story . so this glitch in the history of the machine i have will not be sorted , but if you are offerd a 1911 machine which is sold as number 28 on the pionner register , its not , and i suspect is no more than a pile of parts assembled with no history and belongs to a sunbeam club member
-
I think in all probability that you won't be too far from the truth.
-
What's the big deal with having the No 28 ? surely the provenance of your 1911 Humber doesn't solely rest on this ? If it's a veteran , it's a veteran, and can be allotted any number by any club as they so choose ....the No 28 isn't a right for you to have.
BTW I am an ex Sunbeam Club member and have no axe to grind or banner to wave with the Club.
-
my humber is 1914 , number 28 been given to a 1911 machine many years after it was issued to my machine , i have all the certificates and history with the machine inc tax discs back to the early 50 and the cert dated 21st may 1944 , i like to keep things in order in my folder (ocd) , number 28 does belong to the machine and i am trying to keep it that way but your ex club want it to stay with there club members bike ? they are very quike to point out how they hold records of machines on there numbered register dating back to the 1938 , but the register is incorrect and they are unwilling to correct it , i am not the only one in this situation and i would like it commonly known , i have no chance of getting it corrected and have been told that if i try and ride it in the pionner under num 28 i will be ban (joke here is in the history file its been rode in the pionner many times under number 28 so i have a good idea when they reissued the number and who too) ............. as i see it your right its no big deal , tell your member youve made a mistake and correct your so called bible of a register ..... what are the chances of that , here is the bike and will be at Banbury if any sunbeam officials want to come and chat
-
It's been explained to you that the keepers of the register (now long dead) decided (for reasons best known to them, which are lost to history) to withdraw and re-issue certificate numbers in the early days of the register.
There doesn't appear to be any sense to it looking back, but that's the situation: there's nothing the current registrar can do about that, and there's little to be gained by throwing terms like 'Hitler' about.
Now machines keep the register number in perpetuity: like it or not, the original register number for your machine is now assigned to another one.
If the provenance of your machine means that it's identifiably veteran, you'll be able to have it included on the register again, under a new number.
-
it has been issued a new number but i will keep the origional thanks , my number was reissued to a sunbeam member recently . I know its history and thats why im keeping it with all the origional documentation thanks
-
Why did I think about the antics of the Vincent HRD owners club?
-
there does appear to be problems with all the larger vintage clubs , down to money I think , VOC recent problems was/is a case of a person trying to avoid the unfare death dutys , maybe he should have considerd a civil partnership with his mate :).
-
More like human greed seeing the chance to nab stuff from a deceased's estate while the going was good. Nasty opportunism.
-
maybe we will never know ................... its a fine line i think , if you are offerd a bargain do you say no and let the next person buy it , lets not go down the moral route again , but i have bought things knowing they where cheap , i also collected and deliverd a machine recently (just happened to be a vincent) talking to the widow it soon became clear she had sold this machine way to cheap , but would i (or yourself) have said no
-
A nice dilemma to have...
-
and your answer is ?
-
Yes please would have been my retort... to my discredit
-
to your honesty you mean :)..... what say you Rex
-
The Vinnie blokes weren't bagging a bargain, they were stealing parts that weren't properly secured. If you read the long long tale of what went on, the people concerned justified their actions by saying that the dead man had "always promised me this bike when he died" and then they promptly took it/them before the probate process had a chance to list them all, and that's illegal.
With regard to the buying of a "cheap" Vin, it depends on the circumstances surely?
If the widow had invited a shyster/dealer to give her a price then let's hope she's wise enough to know the dealer would give her as low a value as possible and probably bearing no relationship to the current market value, much the same as if she was flogging antiques or gold jewellery to a passing knocker-boy.
Most (nice) people wouldn't attempt to stiff their aunt/grandma/family friend by offering a ridiculously low price, I'd like to think.
-
"stealing parts " ............ weve been over this ,no theft took place , if you know other wise do the decent thing and call the police , this is a tax evation situation (been over this also) and i know its not somethink you would ever consider , the person who bought the vincent worked with her husband , but im not sure if hes tryed to stiff her yet (but i do think shes some miles left in her mind) i will ask if your interested . :P "it depends on the circumstances surely" ........ and what would the circumstances need to be for a person such as your self to turn this machine away , or to accept .......... this bike was all there but in big bits and bought for 15/20% market value if that helps
-
Regarding the Vin case, as I understand it the police were called in but as the female relative (sister-in-law?) knew nothing about the situation and didn't want any unpleasantness to be attached to the Vin man's passing, she let it go. That doesn't mean it wasn't theft.
Of course, if she'd been told prior to his death that there was a financially worthwhile collection of bikes and bits and that they would be hers then her actions may have been different.
I couldn't afford a Vin even at 20% of the market value, but we've already covered the "morality" bit haven't we?
-
what if you had the money ? you might make me a better person with your wise words ;D "that they would be hers then her actions may have been different." does that not come under greed
-
"Her actions may have been different" in that she might have pressed the coppers to obtain convictions for theft had she known that she was the beneficiary in the bloke's will.
What's "greedy" about that?
-
there we have it a classic example of twisted morality , there is no cure , you are a very sad man , and by the way your comment is a perfect example of human greed " had she known that she was the beneficiary in the bloke's will. "
-
If that's "twisted morality" then you have twisted logic or are just up for a confrontation. I suspect the latter.
I'll try it one more time. If you were willed something by a relative and after their death you found someone else had taken it I'm sure you'd be somewhat miffed, and if the item was valuable enough, you'd want to get the police involved, so the where is the "perfect example of human greed " in that?
To be the victim of a crime and want redress is "greedy" is it? What utter tosh.
Feel free to make a sensible reply if you have one, but don't waste my time with another silly twist-and-turn meaningless jibe.
-
call the police Rex (im sure you wont) and please answer the cheap vincent Q , having no cash is not a answer , your are implying that the items where of value and this would be the motive for police involvment , can you not see the human greed in this ?
with reguards to probate , you cannot give items away at the last minuite but if you where to say they had been stolen your in the clear (they will ask for a crime number) property is more difficult and know since giving my sons propertys that this takes about 7 years , so needs sorting out well in advance , or pay it and a mp can take a holiday
-
Rex
I can not wait any longer for you to take the bate so here it is nice and simple , For any person to preach the moral high ground (thats you) you must have the experience of all sides (here by your own admit ion you are lacking) you can not judge others with out experience of the situation , I know that you would have bought the Vincent (funds permitting) and so do you , your dogged denial in refusing , thinking your doing so under the name of morality is wrong . I have only ever seen this before in followers of the Koran (of which you are not) where the high ground is theres, they have nothing but there faith in that belief, and have nothing else. Am I twisted?
-
Wow.. I don't know where this one is going...
-
no where so i think ill stop , Rex wont be drawn in (all credit to him for being the bigger man) so back to bikes i think , hows the norton going ?
-
Which one?
My model 50 is ok, I haven't had my Imp or the Trident Triton out this year... just stripping down my ES2 to fit a new big end and Ive just sold my Commando....
-
into nortons then , I have some (have a tele plunger international in bits but found out wrong frame so may sell) about to start a 99 was going to go standard but I have problems with the style ??? so will have to go flat tracker ish (to old for clippons) slimline , it will be the first Norton twin ive rode for 40 years , hope its how I remember it . are there any good upgrades you can recommend , that's ones that work and you have first hand experience of . it says triton on the log book so need to sort this out ,
-
Am I twisted?
Probably, and you make a lot of assumptions in an attempt to back up your arguments, too.
Go back a few posts and I said "it depends on the circumstances" and that hasn't changed. You've quoted no more than an old lady selling a Vin to a dealer and it being picked up by you. To make any sort of valid judgement (by you or me) on whether I would buy it or not the situation would need a lot more fleshing out.
You haven't done that, and repeatedly asking "but would you buy it?" shows that you haven't really grasped much of the debate at all, and stating presumptuous statements like "but you would do this" and "I know you would" is just lame as you don't know me from Adam.
I don't see any preaching from any moral high-ground either, although I'm rather perplexed as to what "experience" I've admitted to "lacking".
So to repeat the message of before, respond if you've actually got a point to make, but again, don't waste my and your time by another one of those multi-edited off-tangent diatribes. It really isn't worth your time to type or mine to read.
-
welcome back Rex . would you by the vincent ?
the new owner is not a dealer but i am .
you admited to be lacking in the funds . there for you have no choice to make ( but exchange Skint for morals ?)
i will decide if i have time to type , you to read .
"it depends on the circumstances" please give the circumstances its ok for a person such as your self to buy a cheap vincent , in this i am very interested
-
Too late.. the Vinnie is in my garage (I wish), I'm not one for Norton twins normally but the Commando came as part of a deal. My father-in-law has a brand spanker Slimline 99 in his living room... one day maybe.. but me likes Inters :)
Try Swan neck clip-ons.. much easier on the fragile bits!
Rex.. I think Wetdog is yanking your chain mate... and doing it very successfully if you don't mind me adding.
-
its like someone once told me "you must drag them down to your level and beat them with experience" good advice , but Rex will not bite even when cournerd , hes taking his time trying to Flesh out (no brainer :P) cheap vincent , i think i know why hes skint .
-
:P
-
Rex.. I think Wetdog is yanking your chain mate... and doing it very successfully if you don't mind me adding.
Yeah, the good old standby "I was only joking" when you get caught out talking twaddle. Sometimes it even sounds convincing....
-
no joke Rex hows the fleshing going ? or where you talking twaddle
-
but me likes Inters ............................ I did but been told the frame on this one is a plunger ES2 , I may have alterd to inter spec but the numbers will always be wrong
-
An Inter frame has angled plungers an ES2 has vertical ones
-
i will take some pics and post them here , im told this can be alterd (not cheap) and numbers will always tell this is the wrong frame so is it worth it , the bike was complete and had been on the road in the late 80s but tatty when I bought it (Rex it was cheap so start fleshing? is this local code for wanking ) I took apart to turn into a inter racer thing but got to old and lost interest
-
bit sad but its a bit at the back (a maybe one day project) can you tell from these pics ? went to buy what I was told was an Ariel and turned out to be this
-
It's lovely!
-
but does the frame look wrong from what you can see ? im not sure but its putting me off doing the bike
-
I can't tell from the pics tbh
-
What does the frame number say.
Photo needs to be at a distance, square on to the side of the bike.
The plunger angle makes very little difference to the performance.
Restore it and ride it...
Or put an ES2 in it - no oil leaks !! (or not as many anyway), and not that much different in modern traffic..
-
had a good offer on this now (from this site) so may let this one go , thanks for your help , the frame is not a inter
-
Well done.. not a bad job at all considering pics were so limited, it will no doubt become someone's pride and joy
-
hope so , would never have got done by me to many others on the go , will spend the cash on a thunderbird and 99 im working on taking a break from singles for a bit .