classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: wetdog on January 20, 2014, 09:01:13 AM
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new week new project , i have recived this info of a member of the forum with reguards to a engine i have , thankyou , and i have a cotton rolling chassis i have placed it in , has anyone a pic of the one cotton made ?
History of engine 537 barr and stroud (this is the one i have ) from the works dispatch records
The joy of a B&S is that you can't hear it run! It will make no noise at all. You will hear a bit of whir from the magneto and primary chains, but apart from the exhaust note, nothing.
537 is a 350 Mk I, WA6, shipped to the De Luxe Motor Company on 20 September 1922.
Cotton only bought one engine, in April 1922. This bike found it's way to a Mr G. Spicer in Essex, and I have a picture of it somewhere. If I can find it, I'll send it to you.
They were in 126 Sweetman Street, Wolverhampton. Pre-war they were "AEB", after the founder Mr. AE Bradford, and assembled a few machines, but post war he really kicked off. Built motorcycles under the "De Luxe" brand, but wheeled and dealed in everything he could, assembling everything from two stroke tiddlers to V twins, no two the same. Introduced "Model D" in 1922 with the B&S engine. De Luxe ordered 50 engines at the end of April, 1922, but yours was out of an order for two placed in September. De Luxe also traded as "Motorities" and sold motorcycles as kits for home assembly
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Interesting engine.
Although an unusual view of it.
Have you had it running ?
You know that these were often noted as 'high oil consumption' - they smoked like a chimney, and then some. !!
Modern oils may help here.
Is this a single sleeve or twin sleeve version.
Some years back on a veteran car run, one of the participants was an early Daimler sleeve valve engined wee beastie.
Owner said he'd had to rework the sleeves to get it reliable and smokeless.
He'd apparently used Suzuki sleeves, and this solved the metallurgical deficiencies - and reduced the need for oil.
It did run nicely, although was no powerhouse.
Look forward to seeing/hearing more of this to come.
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If Cotton only had the one, for experiments, photos may be somewhat rare. ?
Photoshop of a suitable Cotton, with engine pasted in ??
The 1st bike is said to be a 1923 Cotton Dart - chain driven ohc.
http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/gallery/cotton/pair-of-cottons-941x570.jpg
P.S. Stanley Woods won the 1923 350cc TT on a Cotton Blackburne
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9CfqmBA2Y_k/Urfb4xT2ifI/AAAAAAAAaDo/R6Dvyr129xk/s1600/Cotton.JPG
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There is a lot of urban myth surrounding Barr & Stroud. Forget every bar room story you've heard.
As wetdog says they are very quiet mechanically. They smoke no more than any motorcycle engine of the day and use no more oil than any other engine with total loss oil lubrication. Remember they predate the use of oil scraper rings so in an original engine oil will readily be pumped past the standard compression rings just as it is in other early 20's fourstrokes not fitted with oil scraper rings.
Ordinary two-stroke oil (not synthetic) suits them very well and the elliptical sweep of the single sleeve ensure the oil is well distributed where it is needed.
Barr & Stroud made a brilliant engine but unfortunately given the limited quality of lubricants and average rider skills of the day they proved fragile. With accumulated knowledge so we know what NOT to do and modern lubricants (mainly the lubricants) they shine as the brilliant design they are.
Wetdogs bike wont be fast, 60mph max, but it'll be very gutsy with lots of torque so hills wont worry it.
Cheers,
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not been run yet but hopfully will this year , i would really like a pic of cottons one mind , the person who sent me the info has a 500 B&S in a special and he says its been quite good .
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for anyone whos interested in these engines http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19to0FCq0-o
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There is a lot of urban myth surrounding Barr & Stroud. Forget every bar room story you've heard.
The stories of heavy oil consumption were when these engines were new ?
That was why few manufacturers took up this engine and sold them. ??
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I think its more to do with the weak point , arm at base of skirt/liner it can snap if over rev
heres the 500 http://www.carrickdesign.co.uk/BroughScott/Brough/barrstroudjohnferguson.html
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To lump all sleeve valve engines together and apply conclusions drawn to all is just as wrong as doing the same with poppet valved engines.
R's comments relate to the double sleeve White/Minerva/Daimler/Knight car engine. This had three crankshafts, one for the conrod, and one each for the inlet and exhaust sleeves. The sleeves were concentric, reciprocated straight up and down (thus concentrating wear) and had tiny letter-box slots for ports. Very quiet, of humble performance, and due to the wear actions and multiple boundaries, given to smokiness when worn. Design lends itself to in-line engines.
They're not to be confused with the single sleeve valve of Barr & Stroud/Argyll/Bristol/Napier and Rolls Royce. The single sleeve oscillates in an elliptical path, has large ports that open and close rapidly and are not obstructed by valve heads. As 33d6 rightly points out, the sleeve action is near to perfect for spreading both wear and lubricant. Breathing is excellent. Volumetric efficiency of a B&S exceeds that of a current model four-valve per cylinder Nissan.
There are complexities in making a single sleeve valve in-line engine. Argyll used skew gears and a shaft initially, before going over to a wobble shaft in later engines, but both options were expensive to make. Singles, twins and radials were much easier.
Single sleeve valve engines hit their peak in WW2 aero engines. Bristol Centaurus, Napier Lion, and I forget what the "H" pattern RR was called. All rendered obsolete by jet turbines, but still the most powerful spark ignition engines ever built.
Where the RAF overhaul period for a poppet valved aero engine was 500 hours, for a ssv engine it was 1500 hours.
The limiting factor on B&S engines is the carburettors of the day. Rapid throttle opening results in hesitant, lean running until equilibrium is returned, far, far worse than the same effect in a poppet valve engine, because they breath so deeply. Carbs with an accelerator pump, even better, fuel injection, would solve this.
Fewer than 2,000 motorcycle engines were made, and the vast majority were 350cc like Wetdogs. They were used by almost all of those manufacturers reliant on proprietary engines, from Brough Superior through Rudge. By their nature they were more expensive than the rival offerings from the proprietary engine floggers, but apart from their being regarded as "unconventional" at a time before "convention" had been established, there wasn't much wrong with them. However, unlike all of the other proprietary engine builders, engines (or even motor trade) were not B&S main line of business. They were, still are, precision optical engineers and manufacturers; binoculars, periscopes, rangefinders etc. This business of course dried up with the armistice of 1918, then vanished completely as ex-WD stuff flooded the tiny market that was left, and so they sought a slice of the burgeoning engine market. By 1927, the WD work was coming back, and engine manufacture ceased.
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Shame they didn't continue with them. With modern materials and manufacturing they might have been a real alternative for poppet valve engines.
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they where both professers I understand so must have known a thing or two regards enginnering of the day
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Today visited a museum in the Hunter Valley in NSW and found a 1923 Beardmore frame with a Barr and Stroud engine sitting in the frame. These things get about.
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never seen one , frame looks interesting , hope the engines not sized can be difficult to free off (mine was)
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Beardmore are listed as one of the few manufacturers (the only ?) who did a run of B&S models.
Rather than just ordering individual engines if required ?
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Excellent thread, which I've just blundered across.
P.V. offered all of the engines for 1924 - the 350 as the model K (also offered the 350cc JAP and Bradshaw equivalents), the 500 as the model J (also offered a 500cc JAP v-twin), and the big v-twin as the '8 h.p. Model' (also offered a 976cc JAP v-twin).
Attached a couple of pics of the 8 h.p. model, with all the options on.
Nick
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PV were fairly typical Barr and Stroud customers.
In total they bought roughly:
17 qty 350cc
15 qty 500cc
3 qty 1,000cc twins.
If you can share any engine numbers with me, I can probably give you the original order details for it.
JFerg
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Wow - that's a bit more info than I expected!
No Barr & Stroud models survive to my knowledge, so I can't supply any numbers.
My limited knowledge of them comes from the catalogues and press photos of the time.
The first press mention that they fitted them is November 1922 (show-time), and the company lasted until a bankruptcy sale in November 1924.
I do have a copy of a letter from June 1922, advising on a delay in obtaining an engine for a machine ordered. The number quoted is 340, which would be very low for one of the longer-established engine manufacturers that they used at the time (Villiers or JAP).
Fascinated to hear more, if you have any.
Nick
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Nick, I have heaps.
Engine 340 was shipped to PV on 25 May 1922, with another engine. Shipment of two.
Email me off-line; johnferguson<at>iinet.net.au
JFerg.
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If he emails you offline, I'll have NOTHING to amuse me!!!! What could be more interesting than when B&S meets PV. The Lock Ness Monster pales in insignificance...
Leon
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Hi Leon,
Is it true the Loch Ness Monster was head designer for Douglas?
Cheers,
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No.
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Many thanks JFerg - email duly sent.
Leon - someone had to be responsible for the fairly 'individual' carburettor designs in the veteran era - my brother's 1911 Model D had slides which you lifted against the springs to close - so if a cable failed, you were on full throttle!
Nick
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Makes perfect sense to me: too much of this idling stuff! And let's face it, full throttle on a 1911 Douglas isn't likely to hurt anyone.
Seriously, the veteran and vintage eras have something to offer that isn't often available in later times: a sense of experimentation. There's something joyous about the attempts to do something better than it had been done before, even if it turned out, with the benefit of hindsight, to be a slightly goofy idea.
The RA Douglas is named after the Research Association brake it uses front and rear. This has a disk of Ferodo-type braking material, onto which a grooved aluminium shoe presses. Not exactly a disk brake, but along those lines. The connecting rods are forked at the little ends, so the pistons have just one central web through which the gudgeon pin passes. It revved to 6,000 rpm, won the TT in 1923, and gave us Dirt Track racing out here in Australia. It's light, fast and unusual. And it's different.
Better or worse than a B&S-v-twin-engined Perry Vale? Neither; it's the same. Together with the Douglas with the spring-open throttle, they have that certain something that appeals.
Leon
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That's a little sweetie. What's the story?
Cheers,
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My friend Jack (who you know 33d6) had a collection of British racing bikes from the 1920s - Rudges, Nortons and Douglases. Of these, the Douglases are his favourites. Unfortunately time has caught up with him and at 90 he's in failing health in care. The "RA" Douglas was one of his favourites, but he never managed to get it all together. I've spent the last couple of years tidying his rather large shed, some fraction of which was a treasure trove of racing Douglas stuff - several restored bikes, several project bikes, and a large collection of parts. Thanks to the Douglas Forum I've become somewhat of an expert on racing Douglases of the 1920s, in particular the RA variety.
There are a couple of running RA Douglases in the world, a couple of pretty good ones that are in collections but not running, and a few which people are restoring or trying to restore. Information is sparse, but it turns out that Jack's RA was even rarer than first thought: it started life as a 2 3/4 h.p. (350) Model TW/24. So rare is this model that no-one had ever seen a photo of one, or even mention of the model in a catalogue or advertisement. It seems that all went to Australia.
I managed to find enough parts in the shed to do a loose build of a (494cc) motor and gearbox, then with a small number of extra parts from around the place I built up the bike. I took the bike into show Jack in his care facility a couple of months ago, and of course the promise was to return with the bike running! I've now got all (??) the parts to build the bike up in its original 350cc form, so it should be a little ripper: the only surviving 2 3/4 h.p. Isle of Man Model Douglas. I'm doing the final build on the motor at the moment.
It's a bit modern for me, but the challenge, technical interest, and, in particular, the personal link make it a very special machine. Fun is where you find it!
Cheers
Leon
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Hi Leon,
I'm not at all surprised when various bits of early motoring exotica(I include cars here) turn up in Australia. All those overseas factories seemed to find a lot of willing buyers out here for all sorts of fun stuff. Think of the supercharged ohc vee twin AJS Worlds fastest contender, the Blitzen Benz, "Samson" Napier, the factory racing DKW, and so on. With those surfacing already I'm not at all surprised at a genuine IoM TT Douglas surfacing as well.
You and I know they were never really lost, the ardent enthusiast always knew of them. We just didn't appreciate how really exotic they were. (I didn't anyway).
This has all wandered away from Barr & Stroud but it's still all glorious fun isn't it.
Cheers,
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Also in the shed was a pile of Rudge parts. Jack was rebuilding a bike from amongst this stuff that was thought to be an early 1930s Rudge "TT Replica" - an over-the-counter racer which was catalogued.
In trying to get this bike together, it has emerged that the motor in the bike is not a "TT Replica" at all, but instead one of the four 500cc bikes built at the Works in April 1932 for the Rudge team in the Isle of Man Senior TT that year. The frame, subtly different from most other road-going and Replica Rudges, was located in the pile (we should have recognised it from its fetching blue silver-frost paint, along with about 90% of the original parts of the Works bike. Unlike the TW/24 Douglas and the TT Replica Rudges, which were racers produced for sale to special customers, this bike is a real Works Racing Rudge, verified from its engine and frame numbers and many unusual features of other parts of the bike. The gearbox, for example, is stamped STT/CR, presumably Special TT Close Ratio or similar, and contains a full set of close-ratio gears and shafts made from Vibrac, a particularly durable steel. The crankcases are made from a Rolls Royce special alloy RR50 and are stamped accordingly.
So this Rudge has actually circulated on the Island in a TT, in the hands of one of the Works riders. Still researching that part...
And yet most of my bikes, from which I get so much pleasure, are not capable of more than 60kmh. Yes it is glorious fun! I think Nick may be able to supply a photo of a PV-Villiers, a bike I'd be more than happy to own and ride!!
Cheers
Leon
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Fear not, Leon, ALL of the B&S stuff will hit the public domain fairly soon. It's in the final stages of polishing now.
JFerg
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Fantastic - I look forward to it.
Leon
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I remember Vibrac from my apprenticeship days. I hated the stuff.
As the junior apprentice I was on the most ancient and worn out lathe and any job involving Vibrac was a misery. What wiith me being pretty useless and the lathe equally so between us we could ruin any piece of tool steel and knock the tip off as many carbide tools as you'd like to give us. Eventually the foreman conceded it wasn't all me when he couldn't cut a thread on the old lathe either. Things improved a little after that.
Still, all these years later I still wince when I see Vibrac mentioned.
Cheers,
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Great story. We sometimes forget that real people had to make the stuff we play with. I hope the attached photo will help you keep in mind this highlight of your early years! All Vibrac parts on the racy Rudges are stamped VIB.
Leon
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So, anyone know whats in this Vibrac steel ??
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9806E5DC1E3CE533A2575AC1A9659C946395D6CF
Which seems to have slipped into obscurity....
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"Vibrac" was a trade name for a high tensile nickel chrome steel that gave no hint of the formulation or what it was. This was common steel makers practice of the day and was a major handicap to standardising production across independent factories when the UK geared up for mass wartime production in WWII. So much so that a wartime emergency committee was formed to eliminate confusion over these trade names by introducing the well known EN (Emergency Numbers) set of numbers to standardise steel types so everyone knew what everyone else was talking about. We still refer to EN numbers on occasion even though they've been obsolete for years and there is now a much more sophisticated (complicated/confusing) descriptive system which users tend to shorten for convenience.
The nearest modern designation would probably be something like '4140' (machine shop short version of the full fancy number) and oddly enough I can turn that on my Taiwanese cheap'n'cheerful lathe to make the odd cup & cone wheel bearing. That old foreman must have drilled something in to me or perhaps it's just years and years of practice.
Cheers,
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I use 4140 for fork spindles and axles - machines quite nicely on my rather worn-out Hercus. Interesting that Vibrac appeared c1922, presumably as part of the revolution in steels after 1900 and through WW1. I doubt that the development of the sleeve valve aero engine, and the B&S, would have been possible without the developments in metallurgy. Are the B&S sleeves steel or iron?
Leon
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Yes, I think the metallurgists have slowly tweaked the formulation of Vibrac/4140 over the years and improved it vastly. Plus of course the steel makers quality control to achieve a more consistent product has equally improved. The major tricky bit for me with turning up wheel bearings in 4140 is preventing the form tool I use from chattering. I rough them out with no drama but do the final shaping with a form tool which has a tendency to chatter on the final cut unless I get the feed and speed just so. Most annoying. I'm sure a modern machine shop wouldn't have these issues but there's a slight problem of money and having to use the tools at hand.
As for your question on B&S sleeve material I think it is iron but JFerg can give an accurate answer plus even tell you the sleeve wall thickness. No doubt any sleeve valve engine made today would have a thinner and lighter sleeve plus a much lighter aluminium piston replacing the original cast iron item and even have oil control scraper rings fitted. When you see Ever Onward performing on the road you tend to forget just how old it is and how incredibly original the B&S engine is. We have an annual weekend away with the boys ride and cover about 500 miles to our destination and return. It's hard to believe the star performer runs an engine still using all the internal components it left the factory with in the early 20's.
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Barr and Stroud's sleeves are described as being of "special close-grained iron".
The Bristol sleeve that I have is also of iron.
However, Arrol-Aster sleeves are steel, allowing them to be thinner and much lighter.
JFerg
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To lump all sleeve valve engines together and apply conclusions drawn to all is just as wrong as doing the same with poppet valved engines.
<big snip>
Single sleeve valve engines hit their peak in WW2 aero engines. Bristol Centaurus, Napier Lion, and I forget what the "H" pattern RR was called. All rendered obsolete by jet turbines, but still the most powerful spark ignition engines ever built.
Where the RAF overhaul period for a poppet valved aero engine was 500 hours, for a ssv engine it was 1500 hours.
<snip>
That is not at all the whole story though...
When the Merlin initially came out, it had an expected combat life of just 20 hours.
Which was continually reworked and revised thoughout the war,
the horsepower likewise being considerably developed. Considerably.
The Napier family of engines also had considerable development - and initially were quite unreliable.
Didn't the story go that Napiers got acess to Bristols' development in sleeve material and technology,
with different management, which eventually improved it out of sight.
The early versions were tried with aircooling, but w/c was required to be reliable.
It was the later H16 Napier Sabre engine that was said to be the most powerful piston engine about,
although at 5500 hp it was only just ahead of the later versions of the Merlin.
Perhaps worth repeating here too a story of the Napier sleeve valve engine in the Hawker Typhoon.
There were apparently known for sometimes being somewhat difficult to start, and catching fire in the process.
So much so that one early squadron of Typhoons had handwritten written near the engine
"If this catches fire during starting, don't just run around waving your arms,
do something about putting the bloody thing out."
A fearsome weapon when they were on song though apparently.
Capable even of catching doodlebugs.
Off track slightly though.
And the B&S was somewhat before this, with a much more modest output and capacity..
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Photo of the 1932 Works Rudge mentioned above.
Leon
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Nice. ;)
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Came across this photo of a very nice Barr and Stroud engined Beardmore Precision:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/flattank_motorcycles/favorites/with/4674187737/lightbox/
You could win some "technical interest" pots with this one!
Leon
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Hmm - nice, but I'd prefer one (or all) of these.
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Have many of those vtwin B&S engines survived, in any marque.
They were not big sellers back then ?
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The definitive answer to that question will have to come from JFerg - but the machine you see in the above attachment is one of two P.V. made with the WA9 motor.
I think both are pictured on this thread - the one in the image on page 1 has a different carburettor and other minor detail variations.
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The only complete B&S V twin engined "survivor" that I can uncover is Sammy Miller's Grindlay Peerless. This was Ted Beckham's bike, and if you see a mention of a B&S V twin Grindlay in any VMCC material, it's this bike. I know of two other engines. One sold at Bonham's Stafford auction a few years ago. B&S only built about 80 twins.
JFerg
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Reading an article in the Australian magazine 'Old Bike' issue number 46 about the rider Jimmy Pringle.
He had gone to England in 1931 to work at the Rudge factory in the competitions department. He came home in time for the first motorcycle races at Phillip Island at the end of 1931, bringing with him a Rudge 499cc ridden by Graham Walker to victories at the Dutch, German and IoM TT races.
In August 1932 he again sailed to England and won his first start at the Brooklands Circuit riding a Grindlay-Peerless. He took home a 'Gold Star after lapping the circuit at 100.61 mph.
Is this the Grindlay-Peerless that is in the Sammy Miller museum?
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Is this the Grindley-Peerless that is in the Sammy Miller museum?
Very unlikely.
http://i0.wp.com/megadeluxe.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/1929-Grindlay-Peerless-500cc-Brooklands1.jpg?resize=1280%2C755
???
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Nice bike; pity about the spelling! The B&S G.P. at Sammy Miller's is shown here:
http://blogs.c.yimg.jp/res/blog-93-cb/shncp005/folder/420664/35/7854535/img_1?1330099603
Note the "Grindley" on the sign, but at least this one has "Grindlay" on the tank!
I have a recollection - but apologies if I'm wrong - that the B&S twin has something in common with the "Ever Onward". I think I read somewhere that Ted Beckham built the twin motor into cycle parts to get the rare engine mobile again. Does anyone know this story? I could be wrong...
Leon
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Thanks to Howard's Flickr site https://www.flickr.com/photos/flattank_motorcycles/5007131776/, here's a Grindlay Peerless Barr & Stroud from the 1926 GP catalogue. Interesting to compare with the ex-Beckham Sammy Miller machine.
Leon
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Nice bike; pity about the spelling!
Spelling fixed. ;D
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http://i1208.photobucket.com/albums/cc370/speedie11/IMAG0022.jpg
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Sorry Murdo - I was referring to the spelling on the petrol tank of the nickel-plated GP, where the sign writer has gone with Grindley!
Leon
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No problem Cardan, I like things to be spelt right too. ;)
Actual problem came because I copied from the magazine, so Jim Scaysbrook got it wrong too! >:(
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The 2 placards that are near Sammy's bike 2 have different spellings for Grindley/Grindlay Peerless too !!
So everyone is hedging their bets....
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You are right, Leon.
Ted's V Twin, which is now Sammy Miller's V Twin was built up from a collection of Grindlay parts. The frame was from a single, and too short lengthwise for the V Twin, so Ted stretched it. 2" or so from memory. I don't think that matters. It is far more important that the thing is seen as a complete and going machine.
cheers,
JFerg
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Hi JFerg,
I found a pic of the bike from the early 1970s. It was then fitted with Harley/Castle front forks, different exhaust, etc. It looks more "GP" now, but I think the fork, front wheel, and other details are still not quite right, even though the paint and plate are flawless!
Yes for such an unusual engine there's a good argument to have it out and running, rather than just sitting on a bench. The problem is that these composite machines tend to very quickly take on an identity that arguably they are not entitled to. I doubt the card at Sammy Miller's museum tells the true story of the bike.
Cheers
Leon
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Ted Beckham detailed his search for a V-twin Grindlay Peerless plus his consequent rebuild attempts of what he found in several letters and articles in the VMCC Journal.
It was a lifetime journey.
As a result we have a very full history of the bike including knowledge of what he did and why he did it. He got as close as he could and he tried hard.
I amused myself over a number of winter evenings ploughing through 40-some years of the VMCC Journal copying off every snippet of sleeve valve contained therein giving them all to JFerg so along with his own material he has possibly the most extensive file of B&S material two obsessive nutters could compile including all the Ted Beckham correspondence.
There is little doubt in my mind that this V-twin GP is as close to accurate as could be achieved and any improvement will only come from the freak discovery of an original unmolested example.
It may not be spot on Leon, but one man spent a lifetime trying to get it right and luckily for us he actually documented what he did. So, regardless of how the bike is placarded in Sammy's Museum, the full story is well known.
On an entirely different note. Get JFerg to tell you of him exhibiting Ever Onward yesterday at a display of sleeve valve engined vehicles. Daimler, Arrol-Aster, Falcon Knight, Willys Knight, etc. You should have seen the nonchalant grin when Ever Onward started with one kick in front of a gawping crowd and just sat there effortlessly booming away.
Cheers,