classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: Tiger Bob on September 29, 2014, 12:46:25 PM
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I'm new to old bikes but not Triumph as I worked there as a prototype buyer for many years. I've had an old bike itch that needed scratching for ages and after selling one of my bikes I've bought a 1959 Tiger 100 - which I absolutely love! I have a couple of questions I'd like opinions on please:
1. Should it piss oil everywhere? I know the saying "if there's no oil under them then there's no oil in them" but after I park it up there's quite a lot of oil on the floor. No pints worth but a reasonably sized little puddle.
2. What should the ammeter read with the lights on? Coming back from Donington the other night the lights seemed OK but since if I put them on the ignition seems to struggle. It's the 6 volt system.
Any comments gratefully received.
Thanks,
Bob.
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You now have a 30 year learning curve.
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most leak oil , wjth the engine running and a full charged battery the ammeter should zero as the dynamo/alt will balance the load , not running it will show a discharge , if its running with lights on and battery is charged and still shows a discharge you may have a fault ,
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NO engine SHOULD leak oil, but many old ones DO, whether this is just a case of it being old or poor assembly or there being some damage to joint faces or seals or in some cases, there just being moving parts which are open to atmosphere such as open valve gear or primary drives that you can't do much about, is a point for investigation. They certainly SHOULD NOT piss oil everywhere.
Certainly with modern gasket sealants and technology it should be possible to get most engines pretty oiltight - it's not always easy though and sometimes takes a bit of thought and ingenuity to get there! Basically it's all about good assembly - the first thing is to make sure that mating faces are flat and undamaged. Use a sheet of fine wet and dry paper on a surface plate or sheet of glass to flat them down. You will find that most old engines are put together with greased thin paper gaskets between faces which can be dispensed with and a good liquid gasket sealant such as ThreeBond 1104/1194/1184 used in its place. Always use sparingly on dry faces though and be especially careful if oil passages run through the joint. Watch it though when the original gasket is a thick one because there will probably be a reason for this such as clearance being required for something to work. In this case either assembling with the faces cleaned off with a bit of thinners on a rag and an new, bone dry gasket or a bit of sealant smeared on either side of it will do the job. Where shafts come through cases sometimes there is no seal or anything to prevent oil from escaping apart from them being above the oil level but when running some oil escapes and here you might need some ingenuity to fit an O-ring or lip seal, but on your T100 it should only be a case of making sure all seals and O-rings are in good condition (i.e. new) and present. Sometimes with old motors the engine breathing was a bit inadequate too so it's worth improving the breathing system especially if you intend to use the machine a bit spiritedly! And Don't overfill the oil tank either or it will throw it out of the tank breather!
All in all, to get the best out of an old bike you have to be a bit of an engineer - you can't expect to just get on them and ride like on a modern bike. You WILL have to get the spanners out most times that you get the bike out! It can be very satisfying when you get it right though!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Thanks gents - most helpful. I'm actually looking forward to the learning curve in a slightly masochistic way. It's pretty steep currently. I found it funny how customer service had changed. In the manual Triumph basically tell you not to bother them and go straight to the manufacturers if there are any problems with the electrical system, speedo, suspension etc. Its equally depressing that everything in the Triumph manual then was made in Britain and now it all cones from the far east.
I think I'll pull the engine apart over winter to sort the oil leaks. It's not obvious where the leak is coming from and I'll enjoy the process. I'm not an engineer but have been in the industry for few years. I know a micron from a thou and loads of people who have the ability to machine stuff.
The ammeter is also a problem methinks. It does show a discharge when the lights are on and the battery charged. To be fair there are a couple of suspect areas on the wiring loom.
All in all I love the bike and the community generally. I'm sure I'll need help in future and there seem to be loads of people out there willing to impart their sage like knowledge.
Thanks,
Bob.
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I've bought a 1959 Tiger 100
Any comments gratefully received.
A "1959 Tiger 100" ought to be a pre-unit model?
1960 was the first year of the unit T100 (T100A).
http://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/triumph-1960/Triumph-1960-03.htm
http://www.tomcc.org/ProfilePage.aspx?id=15
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I had the wrong model also , is that a 5TA
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Not sure about the model/year. I'd been told it was 1959 and I think that's what the log book says - I'll check. Is there somewhere I can enter the frame number to find out?
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http://www.britishspares.com/41.php
has the bike a dizi fitted
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Yes - it does have a distributor. What does that tell you?
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i think you have a 5TA if it is a 500
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i think you have a 5TA if it is a 500
I think you will find that all 500 unit twins had distributors before 1963.
http://www.triumph-tiger-90.com/
For 1963 the Tiger 90 and Tiger 100 models now have the ignition timing operated from the exhaust camshaft the Lucas 4CA (47606B) points and condensers being accessible behind a chromed cover on the timing case........
......The 1963 3TA and 5TA continue with the Distributor Ignition of the earlier models, if the distributor is not fitted then the resulting hole is fitted with a blanking screwed cap.
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I still think this is a 5TA if its 1959 , if its 1960 maybe a t100a ? the owner should know by now if hes dated the frame , nice colour
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I still think this is a 5TA if its 1959 , if its 1960 maybe a t100a ? the owner should know by now if hes dated the frame , nice colour
As the factory started producing their new 'year' models from around August of the preceding year, a 1960 model could still have been registered in 1959. It certainly looks looks like a T100A from Tiger Bob's photo.
I would have expected the model type to be stamped on the engine, yet Bob hasn't mentioned this? Of course the engine or crankcases may have been changed at some point over the last 50 years, so it would be interesting to know if the frame and engine numbers match?
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do you know how many t100a where built in 1959 and registerd for the road ?
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do you know how many t100a where built in 1959 and registerd for the road ?
No, I don't know, just as I'm sure you can't prove there were none registered at all (otherwise you wouldn't have needed to ask, would you?) and none of this alters the fact that whether it has a distributor or not is basically irrelevant, so I suggest we remain open minded until Tiger Bob tells us more-if he chooses to do so?
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two , one was registerd for the road , but the reg it carrys is not WFO
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two , one was registerd for the road , but the reg it carrys is not WFO
And where does that information come from?
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triumph
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triumph
Triumph?
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yes the motorcycle company , I worked most of my life for emap who held the records , which are now with the vmc
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yes the motorcycle company , I worked most of my life for emap who held the records , which are now with the vmc
I was under the impression the VMCC obtained the Triumph factory records from the Science Museum? So are you saying this information is coming through the VMCC?
two , one was registerd for the road , but the reg it carrys is not WFO
You appeared to give the impression that you were referring to the present day (IS not WFO) so do we take it that you are in fact referring to a 1959 record (WAS not) as many original numbers have been sold off and replaced with a age related numbers?
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I see what your saying , you think this is that same machine , we will see but I very much doubt it , I was ref 1959 record yes , the engine in that machine does not have t100 inc in the engine numbers so you never know it just might be , but as the keeper of the bike is quiet I don't think it is 1959 t100 . I don't know where they got the records from but I do know who had them , if you contact them they will confirm this , there is a charge
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I see what your saying , you think this is that same machine
Not necessarily, but it does strike me as being extremely odd that they would have only produced a total of two 1960 season T100As by the end of the 1959 calendar year.
I noticed in the previous Tiger 90 website link it says that two 1960 T100A prototypes (H6282 and H9480 one subsequently registered as 148 AUE) were built during the 1959 model season, this seems to be something of a coincidence. Also it appears that T100As were reaching UK dealers by the end of October 1959 which again seems to suggest that only one T100A being registered in 1959 is even less likely.
http://www.triumph-tiger-90.com/
H12313 is the first production T100A made on the 16th October 1959. Sent to Johnson Motors on the 22nd October.
H12331 is the first UK production T100A sent to Pat Keebles, Leiston.
I don't know where they got the records from but I do know who had them , if you contact them they will confirm this , there is a charge
So how is it you appear to have access to these records in order to give this information?
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now that's a great web site , I have emailed him with some information he maybe interested in , inc a early 3TA fitted with a lucas magneto , you may have a point about the reg , I can find no record of any LA with the WFO registrations up to 1963 , I have no information after that date , so assume the reg is new ? I will be interested if the owner comes back
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two , one was registerd for the road , but the reg it carrys is not WFO
Here's another T100A, built and dispatched in December 1959, so it certainly seems your claim that only "two" were "built" in 1959 is not entirely accurate.
http://www.bike4sale.co/detail/ocoVcFeoVVoooLLmumcP/1960-TRIUMPH-TIGER-100-500cc-T100A-MOTORBIKE-MOTORCYCLE-MA
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That’s a nice bike but again no history ( I will find the reg ) , it seems that no one ever finds and restores a run of the mil model 3TA or a 6T , its always the more sort after model and more expensive that’s lost its history , (eBay is a good place to find many examples) another good example is the one below which is a bike I do know the exact history for (was offered this machine some years ago but the dealer let slip a name who I know very well so found the true history) and it never left triumph as this model , so one to avoid if it ever should re appear ,
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/14264/lot/660/
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Hi all,
I think you may be right about it being a 1960 - although, the log book says 1959. As I understand it years ago (in the good old days before the DVLA) local authorities stored vehicle info. When the DVLA was formed this was collated as best it could be and there were many discrepancies. My frame number is - H16146 - which I believe makes it 1960. The engine says T100A. I dodn't write down the number as it differs from the frame.
I definitely have a problem with charging which I'll investigate. Does anyone have a link to what resistances I should get from the generator?
Also, looking at the rocker cover there seem to be stainless washers under the banjo bolts for the oil feeds so I've ordered some copper ones along with a full gasket set.
Thanks,
Bob.
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I definitely have a problem with charging which I'll investigate. Does anyone have a link to what resistances I should get from the generator?
After 50 years, there's a reasonable chance the charging system has been either altered or upgraded in some way, and the original alternator stator possibly replaced with a later version, especially as a 1960 T100A would normally be expected to have ET (Energy Transfer) ignition which required an ET stator, rotor, Ign. coil/s and AAU. The ET system could be troublesome so was often replaced with the normal coil ignition, so I suggest that firstly, you check over the electrical system to find out exactly which parts are fitted.
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If anyone out there has my engine - H16146 - I'd really like it back.
I have engine number T100A H17605 - anyone want it?
;D
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Does anyone know where I can get a gearbox outer gasket and the grommet that the clutch cable goes through?
Also, the oil pipes are a bit of a bodge - does anyone know where I can get something more like the originals and less like my central heating system?
Thanks.
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Just Google 'Triumph Spares' there are plenty of classic Triumph parts suppliers, such as:
L P Williams
Len Craig
Tri-Cor England
Hawkshaws
Skye Classic
Grin Triumph
TriSupply
T8 Triumph Spares
TMS Nottingham
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your oil pipes look like the origional ones (or very close too)
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Thanks for the help gents - most appreciated. I saw the Tri Cor chap at Stafford and he was most helpful.
The oil pipe terminations to the tank were generally poor so I've re-done them. But, I checked last night and there is oil under the bike again. It actually looks like the oil tank itself is leaking from the seams. Has anyone heard of this before?
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look around the bottom bracket mine did fracture there , having said that my lower bracket is a different shape to yours and only has one hole , but mine is not standard
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I've cleaned the oil tank up and it seems OK. It must have just been residual oil dripping off. Other than a copper washer needed for one of the drain plugs on the primary side (which I've ordered) it seems pretty oil tight.
Other than the outstanding charging issue my main problem now is that it will only run on one cylinder. When I collected it there was the same problem but a plug change sorted it. I have a good spark at both cylinders and as it will run on one cylinder I'd imagine it won't be fuel (single carb). I bought two new BP7ES spark plugs and fitted then and it didn't run at all. I swapped the left and right spark plugs and again it wouldn't run. I can only seem to get it to run with one spark plug. The plugs I got installed with the bike are Champion N4C and it only seems to like one of them. Should I buy the Champion ones?
I haven't altered the timing so I'm not sure what would have changed since I pulled the top end off. I put a new head gasket on and copper washers on the oil banjo's but that's it. I'd like to get it running on both cylinders before I look at the charging issue - could both issues be linked? I've done about 300 miles on it since I bought it and it has always ran on both cylinders.
Thanks,
Bob.
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I've been told to check the valve clearances - which I'll do tonight. I probably should have done this after having the head off.
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How do you buy a prototype?
I would check the valve clearances after changing the head gasket unless it´s overhead cam. We had an oil tank fall off when the brackets cracked the back panel of tank due to vibration so we put a steel strap round the outside of the tank. It doesn´t suck when the tank is hanging on the pipes upside down. Pieces of the crankcase are still in Ainsdale beach now.
Pleased to see this topic caused so much discussion.
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Finally go round to adjusting the valve clearances and it runs like a beauty.
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Also, the oil tank wasn't leaking. I've replaced the lower oil pipes and added copper washers to the head oil pipes as well as replacing the head gasket. It's pretty much oil tight now except for a weep from the base gasket - I didn't have a spanner that would fit the nuts that held it down. I'll try to find one online. Just the charging issue to sort then.