classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: mini-me on June 07, 2015, 06:05:58 PM
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I have a 1929 Model 1 in more or less untouched condition,apart from the toolboxes which I have made.
I have a couple Sunbeam spanners but would like to know if anyone has a list of what tools were issued with Sunbeams of vintage era.
Can anyone help?
The Sunbeam sidevalve site seems to be dead, and the Marston site wants me to pay £23 to register before I'm allowed into its forum. Having seen the fatality rate of Vintage sunbeam sites I'm not keen on that.
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Interesting comments - I don't know where all the vintage fans express their vintage thoughts! If the scene here (in South Australia) is anything to go by, the number of vintage (pre 1930) enthusiasts is pretty low at the moment, regardless of the Marque.
I'm a Sunbeam enthusiast, but I don't own one. I very much like "Beaming" which is the "Journal of the Marston Sunbeam Club and Register" which I get from a friend who has Sunbeams. I read it cover to cover. I enjoy it very much, but my comment would be that there is not much variation across the entire range of Marston Sunbeams from 1913 into the 1930s. That said I'd be just as happy with a 1913 sidevalve 350 or a 1930 Model 90.
I suspect the "one marque" clubs are doing OK. I know the Douglas people do well with http://douglasmotorcycles.net , the Rudge people with http://rudge-whitworth.com , Ariel people with http://forum.arielownersmcc.co.uk and so on. You don't need to join a club to join in the forum - this may be a key to success?
That said, I doubt the vintage movement will flourish if we all confine our interest to the bikes we own. What would we read at night! There are only so many times you can flip the pages of Bob Cordon Champ's Sunbeam books - bad example as Bob understands the vintage motorcycle and is shows in his writings.
Sorry, can't help with tool kit detail, but will ask my friend who has a delightful unrestored 1929 Model 1!
Cheers
Leon
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II have a couple Sunbeam spanners but would like to know if anyone has a list of what tools were issued with Sunbeams of vintage era.
Can anyone help?
Is there a parts book for these ?.
The tools are nearly always listed, and sometimes even illustrated.
There are several dedicated 'toolies' on fleabay, and its impressive the number of kits they come up with.
And the plices they ask for some of them.
Suspect they are finding stray tools and making them into kits, but You'd have to know your stuff to make them look correct, as they do. And stray tools come up all the time, its worth doing a regular search. Might cost an arm and a leg if they are sought after though.
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thanks
I have made up what I consider to be a representative tool kit but curiosity compels me to see what Sunbeam supplied.
Yes one make clubs seem to do well, but Sunbeam sites seem to pop up, get going and then die.
The Marston register has re-invented it self at least once, maybe twice to my knowledge; indeed the first words you read are "Welcome to the latest incarnation of the website ..." last item on it is from 2014, the Sunbeam Sidevalve register is definately dead. No posts since 2012.
Not knocking the folk who run these sites, but I find most posts on the rarer bike sites seem to be pop up posters looking for unobtanium spares, or how much is it worth...
I don't think Sunbeam ever did anything so ordinary as a parts list, as for variation across the range...... they might all LOOK the same, but................
I'd like to know what original kit is in your friends toolbags though Cardan please. Its same year as mine.
Failing all else I suspect I will end up stamping 'Sunbeam' on all the tools and then nickel plating them..........naughty eh?
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I have a 1938 Lion. Post vintage I suppose. Made when Sunbeam was owned by AMC.
Wanted a Model 9 but couldn't afford one at the time, or now even.
Had the original cycle parts and tinware but no tools. It is on the road as is my post war S7 and Sunbeam Talbot 90 saloon.
None of which are related apart from by name.
Don
I too declined the opportunity to join that group to get onto the forum, The subs tend to add up if you have varied interests.
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I too declined the opportunity to join that group to get onto the forum, The subs tend to add up if you have varied interests.
Yes they do. I have bikes of different makes, including Douglas and Rudge, but it's hard to join one-make clubs when you're not really a one-make person.
I went for a spin on a 1930 Model 90 Sunbeam (the racy model, for those who don't know) a couple of years ago. A very cobby riding position, but awesome performance.
Leon
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Good to see I am not alone re the 'pay as you go' forums; after all there is no guarantee they'll exist for the time of the sub. I don't need any more magazines either.
The Lion is a great touring bike, the later ones with the Burman box do not have the refinements of the early ones but remove the worry of gearbox spares for the crash boxes which have suffered lot, mostly due to owners not understanding the role of the clutch stop.
I have always wanted one of the '38/39 AMC Sunbeams but they are few and far between now, and I am no longer buying bikes.
There is a charm about 1920's Sunbeams that is hard to put into words; for me its knowing that I have a bike that was hand made and assembled by one man who took pride in his work; little things like finding the testers/foremans initials on various parts.
The high survival rate of Sunbeams is proof of how much they are cherished.
Get on one on a quiet road on a summer evening and plod along with the engine just chuffling happily away...does it for me anyway.
My 'Beam is on the list of my bikes that'll stay with me till I pop my clogs.
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Sunbeam published some sort of parts lists.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8299/7793195968_4de361e599_n.jpg
If there is one there are likely to be more, it may only be a matter of seeking, and ye shall find.... ?
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I'm quite pleased with my Lion really. I know it doesn't have the appeal, of some, of the ohv and earlier models but it does go well for a sidevalve.
As far as clubs go, their aim nowadays seems to be to provide a glossy magazine posted at great expense to all members every month which takes up most of the subscription. I'd sooner see a simple newssheet and more money spent on getting spares made.
Looking at prices in OBM I won't be buying any more bikes.
Cheers
Don
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sunbeams are very well made , they also made nice push bikes , I have a model 10 and they go well
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rummaging about the net I found this about tool kits, from 1926 bikes I believe.
It'd be interesting to see pics of same.
Sunbeam tools
The 1926 manual contains a full list of the tools supplied. These can vary slightly from model to model, but basically the list is:
Double ended bent spanner
D/E open spanner 1/4 x 5/16
D/E ring spanner Large
D/E ring spanner Medium
D/E ring spanner Small
Spanner for valve caps and exhaust pipe nut
Spanner for adjusting tappets, rear chain and rear brake
Adjustable spanner
Screw for withdrawing mag sprocket
Mag spanner
Tool for replacing gudgeon pin
Tube spanner 1/4 x 5/16
Screw for with drawing cush drive centre piece
Punch
Spanner for locknuts on inlet pipe and gearbox sprocket.
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They're not illustrated in the Service Manual ?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Service-Manual-for-Sunbeam-Motor-Cycles-4th-Editiion-1928-/151695278445
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That’s when people knew what they were riding, or had to know, Tool for replacing gudgeon pin, just in case you had to on the side of the road. Now if there is a tool kit on your ZXRRFERSA 1000 it might contain your break down card, how times have changed in less than 100 years, but is it progress
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yes, I saw that manual, but at 75 quid my curiosity stops
I havejust bought for £15 one that allegedly covers Models 95, 8, 250 Longstroke, Lion; looks to be about 1930, we shall see soon enough;
Would a ZXRRFERSA 1000 have any tools? I used to have lovely little wooden cups for a Model H Triumph that held a valve, a spring and its collets, and with the little gizmo supplied one could change a valve by the side of the road.
add to our tool box a couple of belt links and a spare tube you were all set.
I have couple of decent puncture repair kits in little tin boxes about 3in square which are a little tool box in themselves.
Not needing those things might be progess but I much prefer the old way.
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I know im old and don’t want to start ranting (again) but the quality of the older machines looks to me like they were built with pride, I have my old tobacco tin from when I smoked many years ago, it has a winged head badge inset on top of the hinged lid and looks to have been nickel plated, I recently found out that this tin was sold new with a spark plug inside, the tin alone is well engineered I would love to see the plug , sorry ranting again
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I don't know my Sunbeam models all that well (without looking), but the presence of a Model 95 and Lion in your new book says later than 1930.
Leon
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Bruce Main Smith Publishing used to do low cost photocopies of parts lists and owners manuals etc.
Be worth chasing up who has them now (the NMM ?) and see what they have for Sunbeams.
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Yes, the NMM seem to now have a hand in it.
http://www.thenmmshop.co.uk/sunbeam
Looks like quite a range, without having seen it in the flesh, so to speak.
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Hi there.
Just joined this forum being the (very) new custodian of a 1931 Sunbeam Model 10 (the economy special that was only made for a couple of years).
I have a scanned parts book with details of the tool kit which I'm happy to pass on if it's any use.
And I expect I will have lots of questions here.......
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/iansoady/bike/Sunbeam/sunbeam%20small_zpshzunvyws.jpg)
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Scans of (poor quality) parts book:
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Hi Ian,
That's a tidy-looking bike! I hope you are enjoying it. The Model 10 has one of those fabulous features that, somehow, never caught on - the gear shift lever mounted on the rocker box. The show Edition of The Motor Cycle (13 November 1930) had an artist's sketch of this feature, which it described as "unusual".
Leon
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Hi Leon,
It's not quite as good as it looks (are they ever?) but is almost all there and is very solid with no rust pits etc. Much of the paintwork is a very casual aerosol blow-over - my plan is to tidy it up, source / make the missing parts and go through the oily bits but am in no rush. I haven't managed to start it as the clutch is slipping in a big way.....
Thanks for the mention of the Blue Un sketch - I'll be going up to Allen House when I return from holidays and will look that issue up.
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I don't know my Sunbeam models all that well (without looking), but the presence of a Model 95 and Lion in your new book says later than 1930.
I realise that Cardan, but all is grist to the Sunbeam mill........
thanks Ian for that photo, it all helps, a few of those tools are only pressed out stuff, the sort of unmarked thing thats found in boxes of rusty old tools a jumbles etc. mostly asssumed to be push bike spanners.
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Heres the model 10 from Bob Cordon Champs book, coil not hairpin springs.
yours doesn't look so far off.
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h314/moto_photos/model%2010.jpeg)
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Thanks for the mention of the Blue Un sketch - I'll be going up to Allen House when I return from holidays and will look that issue up.
I'm interstate at the moment, but will scan and post when I get home later in the week.
Leon
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Lovely photo, thanks - and mine does look very correct. I like the test comments.....
I'll have to get the Cordon-Champ book - he seems to be the acknowledged authority on all things Marston.
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You'll not find anyone with a greater depth of knowledge about pre-war Sunbeams than Bob C-C.
Both his books are about but at wildly varying prices; When buying the ' Illustrated History' watch out for poor binding, its poorly produced and prone to falling apart, at least mine has.
I doubt even the VMCC has any more guff re Sunbeam than Bob has written; the pitman book is but a guide only,
Meanwhile I found this on U tube which is handy
https://youtu.be/sPxsZ_HxU1U,
Its worth while learning to set the clutch up, and get the plates re corked; on my Model 1 I also got the clutch spring studs made larger, a worthwhile mod.
I see you have also found the yahoo group site, be nice to liven that up a bit.
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I haven't yet found the horrors that
may almost certainly will be lurking in the primary chaincase but it crossed my mind that bonded surflex may be an improvement on cork (I believe that the 90 had Ferodo linings). I have no experience with cork (other than the satisfying plop as it emerges from a bottle of Bordeaux).
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Cork in a clutch has all the properties you need: original (!), cheap, easy, satisfying, adequate performance and durability. I'm sure Mr Google (or even a search on this forum) will give a description of how to do it.
It may be possible to adapt a Ducati racing clutch but hey, what are we doing with these old things?
Had a long day tidying a huge shed and sorting Rudge stuff. Plenty of nice bits.
Cheers
Leon
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You'd be hard pressed to get Surflex inserts for a Sunbeam clutch; as Cardan says nothing wrong with cork, Sunbeam ones are small and round about the diameter of an old sixpence.
Mine were done by a chap who advertised in OBM, he specialised in just recorking. I have had no reason to look at them since. No idea if he's still around but someone will know.
Your Model 10 will just about pull the skin of a hard rice pudding so power need doe's not come into it.
I also find a cork clutch to be quite sweet in action, but maybe thats just me.
If I were you I'd research setting the clutch stops up properly, and a picture of whatever horrors you find would be interesting
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I have an idea that omission of clutch stops was one of the "economies" inflicted on the Model 10.
Rice pudding? That test you quoted says "fast .... and handles superbly at high speeds". I expect nothing less.
You're probably right cork it will probably be.
A bit of googling turns up the name Bob Metson for recorking.
BTW the wheel spokes look awfully thin to me (haven't measured them). Would this be normal or has somebody rebuilt the wheels with pushbike spokes?
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They're probably either butted or double butted - thicker at one or both ends, and thinner in the middle. I'd imagine that the thinner part of the spoke would be 10g (0.125") or thicker. If you're worried measure the spoke diameter with a micrometer.
Leon
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They're not butted but will measure them.
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Bob Metson is correct I think, in sussex somewhere?
On my 1929 they are quite thin and not butted, I still have original spokes.
If no clutch stop fitted, practice your hand gear changing ::) those gear box innards are 500quid if you need to get a new set
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If I can get any at all given the scarcity of this gearbox (which according to a mag article by Mr Champ was only fitted to the Model 10 and parts are not interchangeable!)
I suppose it may be possible to get new ones made by cnc somewhere if worst comes to worst.
Spokes are 0.122" which is between 10 & 11 SWG. ISTR that the spokes I'm used to would be more like 8 SWG but given the light construction of the bike suspect I have one less thing to concern me.
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The 500 quid I quoted was from a guy in the wilds of Scotland, Orkney or somewhere who has made the odd batch;
Seems to be respected by the Marston crew.
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Unbutted 10g spokes are certainly in the "cheap and cheerful" category, and a bit unexpected on a Sunbeam. But it was 1931 and times were tough. Provided the wheels are well built and the spoke tension is OK, there should be no problem at all with the roads and type of riding we have these days.
Leon
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I have now delved into the murky recesses of the primary drive and am quite reassured. The engine has quite respectable compression and turns over freely so I may leave well alone in that department. The clutch corks look in good order although are soaked in oil. It does have the clutch stops although these are merely hollow externally threaded tubes with external locknuts - I suspect there should be some sort of friction material in them.
There is a slightly weird (to my eyes) longitudinal slot in the mainshaft with a pin going through the pressure plate - at first I couldn't see why the pressure plate wouldn't just pull off till I noticed it. I can't see why the splines aren't enough to locate it although it may be a user "enhancement". The clutch is the single spring type which I understand is looked on with some disfavour, and the kickstart quadrant doesn't have the retracting tooth which I've seen in pictures of other models. The clutch backplate has some welding on it so maybe has disintegrated at some time.
All in all it looks as though the bike has either been used very little or has been comprehensively restored at some time in the past. My thoughts are the former, as it was only first registered in 2013 according to the V5C. Maybe it's been on display somewhere for many years?
Some pictures: http://s43.photobucket.com/user/iansoady/slideshow/bike/Sunbeam/clutch?sort=2
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probably 2013 was when it was restored, V5 should surely state "declared manufactured in 19** "?
Mine does. regd 1983
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Yes it does say declared manufactured in 1931.
It would be nice to have a registration number in the correct format for the year ie XX 9999.
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Seen your post on that site upon which I will not post.
re your exhaust problem, its possilbe to remove the dents from inside the pipe by pulling through an egg shaped former.
I am trying to find an article showing how its done,which I will post up.
It is in french but with lots of photos and diagrams.
Be patient please
Far better and more satisfactory than replacing with pattern items; or filling with braze. My 1928 'beam still has its original exhaust, and with original innards in a new made silencer.
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I agree I would prefer to keep the originals and look forward to the article. Even if I did replace them I would keep the original items for any future owner.
I wonder why you refuse to post in the other place (apart from the usual infuriating know-it-alls of course). My experience is that there are some genuine and knowledgeable folk there.
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My experience is that there are some genuine and knowledgeable folk there.
Yes
also a couple of thugs.
been there T shirt etc
still searching for that article
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are we talking a bike forum ? I have had this on a car forum VW
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Yes, another bike forum, but lets leave it there?