classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: mark2 on July 06, 2015, 07:42:45 PM
-
I have most of a cotton in bits , can anyone help with model year etc the frame number is 553 forks look like druid and it has come with 2 Jap engines thankyou
-
Wow, that question would floor most people at a quiz night.
Sounds like a nice project. With a frame number in the 500s I suppose it's early 1920s, maybe 23-24, but some photos would help. There is a Cotton Club and no doubt the VMCC has a Cotton marque expert - I guess this is where the world's Cotton expertise resides.
Leon
-
'With two JAP engines' would probably floor even the best Cotton 'experts' !
Although perhaps that means that one is a spare.....
-
found the cotton club , will see if they have any information thanks should have looked for them first really
-
Post some photos anyway. A vintage Cotton is a most unusual thing and I'm sure people would be interested.
Leon
-
No joy with the cotton club and not sure they are still going as they do not reply to emails etc. , I have some story’s to follow up so will try and trace the history myself . I am looking for a good cotton tank @ 1920s; I have to sweeten any deal a very nice original cotton wrap round oil tank spare I have only seen one other which was fitted to a Blackburn cotton , anyone interested?
-
From a cotton novice Interesting frame design and why do some have a extra frame brace at the rear , this one looks like the casting is there but never used , see pic of oil tank for trade , this tank has a return ?
-
what are these forks please
-
Well they are pretty standard Druid forks, either built by Drew or built under license. The two tell-tale features are the dampers on the the lower front spindle with the unusual mounting point for the fixed friction plate of the front left leg, and the brake anchor very low on the same leg. This lug is so close to the wheel spindle that you'd have to think the maker didn't understand the physics of torque which dictates the brake plate is best anchored some distance from the spindle.
So let's say 1923-ish, with a small drum brake on the near (left) side of the machine. Of course it could be one of the lesser-known makers, or even Cotton?
Leon
-
Seems to me the obvious place to start for identification is with the VMCC. It's their area of expertise and they do have a Marque Specialist who should be some help.
I've just looked at the Cotton section in my copy of their Register of Machines and have to say Cotton frame numbers are all over the place. There must be some sort of internal logic to the frame number sequence but it doesn't leap off the page so to speak. The Marque Specialist should know.
Give them a try.
Cheers,
-
im not in the VMCC thanks
-
contacted the vmcc , they have no dispatch records for cotton and are unable to tell me model etc even if I pay the £25 so a dead end there
-
The joys of the (genuinely) vintage motorcycle!
I have a collection of unusual motorcycles for which there is no expert to consult. Information is usually hard-won, but the satisfaction level is very high as each snippet falls into place to build a picture of both the bike to be rebuilt and the people who put it together.
Cotton shouldn't be too hard. They were present at most of the major shows, they exported and they advertised. They feature in books and there are numerous survivors, and the suvivors have owners some of whom are sure to be knowledgeable.
As a starting point, can I suggest that you bolt together what you have, and take a couple of decent photos so we can see what you've got.
On the research front, collect every photo of a vintage Cotton you can find and order them by age.
Cotton models changed over the years, so from the details of the parts and the frame number I'd say there'd be no problem coming up with a date and model.
Leon
-
As an alternative source of information, the VMCC's "Register of Machines" book has about two-and-a-half pages of various Cottons listed (including a handful of the late 50s-early 60s ones).
Frame numbers could fairly be described as 'all over the shop', but there are some three-figure numbers for early 20s stuff.
As suggested above, useful to see what we're discussing - it ought to be possible to make a fairly educated guess at what year it's from, even +/- five years, as a starting point.
The Sunbeam MCC in the UK has around a dozen Cotton catalogues/brochures spanning 1923 to 1939 (not all years covered), so it might be possible to narrow it down a bit and then get some reading material from a particular year.
Nick
-
thanks and I do have some leads which I will follow , I have also had a offer for the machine as it stands and may let this one go and use the money on another bike , a Norton inter ive also bought off the same person , the dispatch and history of this machine is easy to find so im told and maybe more useable , thanks for your ideas and help
-
Yep it's certainly easier to sell it than to restore it.
If I had to choose between a vintage Cotton or an Inter Norton, I'd take the Cotton every time.
Leon
-
yes. lots of fake and wannabe Inters out there.
do some very careful research before you part with dollops of cash
-
ive got the Norton already as I bought it at the same time , I think it will be more useable than the cotton , I will keep one of the engines which came with the cotton as its a V twin (has nothing to do with the cotton im sure) and I will rebuild this with Pat bastokes ? help and sell that separate , that way the Norton will have come for free
-
I do hope you have not made a massive mistake?
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Cotton+motorcycles&newwindow=1&biw=1920&bih=943&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAmoVChMIsN2rmLSKxwIVpWjbCh2x4wpY#newwindow=1&tbm=isch&q=Cotton+motorcycle+vtwin+JAP&imgrc=oifVupfTnvh_tM%3A
If I am correct, Cotton like so many small 1930s marques would fit any engine you wanted
-
nice bike , the frame I have/had does not have the extra rear tube , see pic above , im 99% sure it would not have had the V twin fitted , bit late now as I have agreed the sale and the V twin is not included , the new owner appears to know what he is buying maybe he will tell me before he leaves
-
I'll stick my neck out and say that Cotton most likely never made a V-twin. In this day and age, we're so fixated with buying and selling that no-one seems to care. If the v-twin Cotton is a fake, it is now described as "rare".
No doubt Mark2's v-twin will end up in a probably-fake-Brough-Superior-sort-of-thing, which will itself become rare and valuable in the future. If it turns out well, it will be sold at a glamourous auction with the description provided by the vendor and not checked by the auction house; if not we'll see it on ebay as "rare", "desirable", and "photos form the description".
Leon
-
Just checked the Show Editions of the magazines for Nov 1929 and Nov 1930. No mention of V-twins in the Cotton line-up. Oh well.
Tell us about your Inter mark2! I'd love to see some photos and hear about the dispatch records. John and Simon at http://vintagenorton.com can give you the good, or bad, news if you supply engine and frame numbers.
Leon
-
If you want the Inter to go faster, I can supply a racy top end to suit just-pre-war to just-post-war (plunger heel) racing-spec Inter. The head (single cam) is either NOS or little used and well-cleaned.
Leon
-
I am sure I have seen other V twin Cottons over the years; probably at Banbury....just because its not in a show report does not mean a bike could not be made to a customers spec, especially here in the 1930s factories needed all the income they could get.
OEC are a prime example you'll not find a mention of an OEC with a Silver Hawk engine in any magazine but there it is in Sammy Millers Museum; I also know of another with an SV V-twin engine.
Some makers would fit any engine you asked for, HRD and Rudge for example.
-
Over here we have a Matchless V4 in a Matchless mono-block V-twin frame, but that doesn't mean they were ever made like that. A bit of jacking works wonders.
Actually I don't agree that makers would "fit any motor you wanted": I think this is a myth invented in recent years to explain the dodgy things some "restorers" put together. If you think about it, it doesn't make much sense for any manufacturer to spend a huge amount of time building an un-tested bitsa just because a customer wanted one.
Anyway, happy to hear about the origin of the v-twin Cotton. My guess is that it started life in the 1990s rather than 1930. I could be wrong, of course, particularly because of all manufacturers Cotton had no favorites when it came to choosing motors.
Cheers
Leon
-
I think the cotton was a bitsa , at least this has moved forwards a good 12 months ,will see what ive let myself in for (http://i58.tinypic.com/fyjyc1.jpg)
-
A good starting point at least! Let us know how you get on with numbers.
Leon
-
its on the road reg and came with a V5C , was taken apart to tidy up and left , been in bits since @ 1988 , was sold to last owner by Tony Cooper (well known bike dealer ) in 1974 , bitsa engine (http://i59.tinypic.com/2enubfq.jpg)
-
Hope the Norton is back on the road soon. Did it turn out to be an Inter or a CS1?
I like the JAP motor, presumably a KTCY for Coventry Eagle. I was recently involved in selling a Cov Eagle with the racing JAP side-valve engine (KTR) engine, and it was most sought-after. I wonder if your cylinders are correct; I think the KTCY mostly used cylinders with the spark plugs angled into the cylinders between the V, rather than in the inlet valve caps. I can't see in the photo which you have.
Cheers
Leon
-
this ones at my farthers hes working on it , its a KTCY for Coventry Eagle , its unusual as it had twin mags fitted ? mines not as nice , the Norton is a 500 inter
-
Norton info is very easy to discover:example - a fellow bought some girder fork bits at a swap-quoted the serial on the forks,and was told not only all details of bike they came from,but name of dealer and first owner.Regards John.
-
The VMCC expert for Cotton is Paul Powell paultrials@yahoo.com
Cotton Owners Club contact is monions@blueyonder.co.uk
If it helps at all my Cotton is 1930 Frame # 6127
Best
Chris Mac