classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: mattsccm on May 18, 2016, 07:53:20 PM
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Hello. New to elderly motorcycles so I thought I would start here.
I have acquired a Watney.
http://www.sungreen.co.uk/lydney_forest_of_dean/watts_first_garage.html
Built just down the road. Its the bike in the pic, obtained from a close friend whose father had it for decades before he died. I have all that you can see except the rear rim and the front number plate has been cleaned off . grrrr. It is in big lumps plus some extras eg tank, lighting etc.
Where do I start?
Can't find a frame number and the number on the engine, it's a Blackburne, that I have found looks wrong. DB329. Number on the Burman box is E17 5 or 8 9 . Both turn over and feel fine.
I am hoping that some film of it running turns up with the reg number visible and identifiable people etc. Just may help getting it registered. I am assuming that a log book is long lost.
Expect this to be long winded unless someone points me to a better place !
Cheers, Matt
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Hi Matt,
If you've got all the parts in the photo, you have a very interesting, and very restorable, motorcycle.
This type of machine is pretty typical of the era. The mostly likely scenario is that Watts would have bought in most of the parts - motor, gearbox, forks, saddle, frame lugs, wheel parts, etc. - and assembled the bike themselves. Probably a bit less likely is that they bought the complete machine from a manufacturer with their Watney brand painted on the tank. Either way, it's pretty sure that few were made.
I have two suggestions: join the Vintage MCC, and find someone local who is familiar with restoring vintage bikes and who is prepared to help you out. The VMCC has a Blackburne Marque Specialist who can provide info about the motor. The Brampton Bi-flex fork, the medium weight Burman gearbox, Brooks saddle, probably British Hub Company hubs etc. are all pretty standard, so the restoration mostly depends on the level of wear and decay.
Don't be in a hurry to pull everything to bits, don't sandblast everything, and avoid powder coating and chrome plating.
Do your research first: found out whatever you can about Watney motorcycles, and also about the bits it is made from.
Plan your restoration: even if you're not going to do it all yourself get a copy of "The Vintage Motorcyclist's Workshop" by Radco.
Above all, enjoy!
Cheers
Leon
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http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Watts_of_Lydney
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Thanks
It was an assembly by Watts job. My father is a mate of the current boss there who is searching old records. Only blasting done is to mudguards and front wheel which show signs of black paint on spokes but I don't know if that was original. One tank was blasted and patched but I have the original with the logo very visible if oil stained.
To be honest, if I had a rear rim ( haven't found a source yet) and tyre I could make it into a roller in a day or two. Suspect that it might make sense to check engine has clear oilways etc and I am darn sure that the mag needs work.
The plan is to create a runner before any paint is done and that will be minimal as its only the guards that need it.
Any idea where a frame number might be if at all? Its not where I would expect to find one on either motorcycles or cycles.
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It may not have a frame number. I guess you've looked in the usual paces: on the saddle lug, on the steering head lug, on one of the engine mount lugs, on the gearbox lug. Almost never on a frame tube.
Leon
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Very interesting, will be watching this one progress.
The sales booklet is a good find too with specifications.
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May well have found the original sales leaflet for the copy online. I know where the original of the pic shown on line is but its not accessible at the moment.
The lady who sold it to me, a close friend thinks that there is old film of it running. Watts' "boss" says that he knows of no other.
How would I get it registered? I guess some sales info from Watts ' would help but I expect that it might be tricky persuading the DVLA to accept just this.
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Matt,
Take lots of photos before you do anything more. Join the VMCC - they will help with the rego process. I assume you will try to keep the original number?
Leon
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That would be nice. I have small hope that the rear number plate is buried in garage.
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The Blackburne engine looks to be early 20s with three stud detachable head. As everyone says join the VMCC, the specialist is Martin Shelley. They can also help with the rims and tyres
If you are going for the original plate, I would recommend doing that before you take anything apart
Great project, good luck, keep us posted
Best, Chris Mac
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The thing came to me in large lumps so stuck with that. Watch this space.
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Basic question
What threads etc will I find?
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Mostly cycle thread (BSCyc). The smaller ones are 26 threads per inch, but in 7/16, 1/2 and 9/16 you may find 20 tpi, which is also a cycle thread.
I can't recommend too highly "The Vintage Motorcyclists Workshop" by Radco. It has recently been republished and is not expensive, but it is loaded with useful information. For threads, if you have a vernier caliper, a thread pitch gauge, and a copy of Radco, you should be able to identify every thread.
Most of the hexagons will be British Standard. Tools are labelled "BSF" or "BSW" in the size that corresponds to the thread diameter. The tools are all the same, but in the early days BSW nuts were larger than BSF nuts (so an old 1/4 BSW nut has the same hex as a 5/16BSF nut), but these days most 1/4" nuts (i.e. to suit 1/4" threads) are the same size. That said, "AF" (across flats) labelled tools will not fit: a 7/16" AF tool will fit a hex that is 7/16 across the flats of the hex (as found on american nuts), but a 1/4 BScyc (26tpi), 1/4 BSF (also 26tpi, but only in this diameter) or a modern 1/4BSW (20tpi) nut needs a BS tool (confusingly labelled either 3/16 BSW or 1/4 BSF, or sometimes just 1/4BS).
Fun!
Cheers
Leon
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Well it is in only a few lumps now. What we cant find is a rim. 26 x 2 1/4 beaded.
Any ideas?
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I have two suggestions: join the Vintage MCC...
http://www.vmccshop.net/c/597/tyre-rims
Other suppliers too.
Leon
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Sold at the VMCC shop. I'm sure if they sell them they are available elsewhere as well.
I would strongly suggest you don't cut the old rim off the hub. Your rebuilder, who ever it is, will need to know where the rim is positioned in relation to the hub. Is it offset. and by how much. The rebuilders job is much easier if they get a complete wheel and not just a bare hub. It is also probably a good thing to rebuild the axle and wheel bearings first. A nice straight axle and good bearings so the wheel can properly spin makes a nice foundation for an accurate wheel.
Cheers,
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Thanks.
My *"+&%£#@y father is doing the parts hunting and he assured me that the VMCC , which he joined, didn't have any! Can't find anyone else. Adverts don't appear to tell the whole story. Time to do my own shopping!
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Hi,
What type BE rims are you after? the VMCC ones are Westwood type
If you need other types contact Brickwood wheels or Richard bros
http://www.richards-bros.com/
Richards Bros
Unit 6 Hedel Road
Canton
Cardiff CF11 8DJ
Wales U.K.
Email sales@richards-bros.com
Tel: +44 (0) 2920 229945
Fax +44 (0) 2920 220717
Brickwood Wheel Builders
Old Brickwood Farm
West Grimstead
Salisbury
Wiltshire
SP5 3RN
Contact: Mr. Benn
Telephone: 01722 712701
John
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Ta. No idea what type. Will look at pictures.
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The front wheel in the photo above is the "Westwood" pattern. The Westwood rim has a dropped centre, compare with others that can have either a flat or slightly rounded profile.
The rim you are looking for is a "xx spoke (count the holes in the hub - I assume 36) beaded edge Westwood rim to suit a 26 x 2 1/2" tyre". The over-all diameter of such a rim is about 22 1/4 - 22 1/2" (check against the front rim if you still have it). Under no circumstances accept a rim that is 21" diameter: despite the argument that 26 - (2 x 2 1/2) = 21" ALL modern BE tyres are made to fit a 22" rim.
The historical background to this is that early tyres were 26x2 and fitted on a 22" rim. 26 x 2 1/4" tyres came along as a oversize and fitted on the same diameter rim, and later ditto for 26 x 2 1/2" tyres. Original Dunlop tyres were labelled "26 x 2 1/2 x 2 1/4" or sometimes "26 x 2 1/2" suit 2 1/4" rim", but tyres now are just labelled 26 x 2 1/2. In the era there WERE genuine 26 x 2 1/2" tyres that fitted on 21" rims, but these are no longer available. Modern 26 x 2 1/2" tyres are a very sloppy fit on a 21" rim - dangerously so - and should be used at your own peril.
Cheers
Leon
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Yeah, tis Westwood. Sadly no rim there so its time to get the hub in the frame to eye things up. Have got 25 spokes to help matters a bit. Ta for tip about rim size. Got a Dunlop tyre that came to us in the waxed paper wrapping as in the pic so need one plus rim and tubes plus spokes.
Its getting there slowly.
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It's 95% likely that the rear rim will be built on the centre line of the rear hub, but it's worth checking before you build the wheel.
I guess the spokes were 12g (0.104" diameter), less likely 11g, and with 10g perhaps a bit heavy for the job but probably OK. If the rear hub is unmolested you can check the spoke hole size. With the explosion of off-road bicycles and ebikes 12g spokes are now cheap and easy to get. Once you have a rim you can check the required length with a spoke length calculator http://earlymotor.com/leon/misc/html/spoke.htm
I use Michelin tubes: they do a heavy-duty in 2.50-21 which works well with 26 x 2 1/2 tyres.
Cheers
Leon
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Update/question.
Slowly doing bits. Rebuilding the rear wheel which is technically easy but it was in bits when we got it. Using old spokes to copy and get lengths but one sides worth are too long if built 3 cross. Not sure on the other side as I haven't got the dish right yet of course.
Would 4 cross be likely on a 40 hole rim of this era? The front is 36 and 3 cross.
Different spoking patterns for each side seems unlikely although in cycles it not unknown.
Cheers
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The rule of thumb is that the number of crosses should be less than the number of spokes divided by 9. Thus 4-cross is ok for 40-spoke wheels, possible for 36, but unstable for 32 or anything less.
If the wheel is asymmetric - different flange sizes or different offsets - the lacing pattern is sometimes different on each side.
If you follow the link in the post above to my spoke length calculator, you'll find suggestions there for how to deal with asymmetric wheels. Make the appropriate measurements, plug the numbers into the calculator, and it will tell you the spoke lengths required.
Have fun.
Leon
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Rim sizes were based on the beaded edge tyre size back then. There were quite a lot more tyre/rim sizes available than there are today.
(I've got a new, old stock Dunlop Clipper 26 x 2 3/8 in the shed), god knows what size the rim should be!
Basically you have 2 choices, 26 x 2 or 26 x 2 1/2. I would suggest 26 x 2 1/2 is most appropriate - I have an early 20s 250cc Triple H that runs 26 x 2 1/2 tyres and rims.
The 26 x 2 size is more appropriate for veteran machinery, as tyre sizes started smaller (descended from push bike sizes) and grew as time progressed.
26 x 2 1/2 beaded edge tyres have had a supply problem recently (Ensign brand), but I believe it may be past or at least coming to an end.
The belt rim will be more of a problem. There is currently nobody in the UK making replacement belt rims. I've been investigating with a chap in West Yorks who used to be a supplier, but quit when the quality of deep drawing steel sheet dropped off, he claimed that 5 out of 6 rims ended up as scrap!
Still trying to coerce him into making an odd one for me, but as practically every belt rim is different, they are very labour intensive for creating the formers to help generate the shape.
Good luck with the rebuild, hope to see it at Banbury one day!
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Cheers
Going to try a 4x on one side and see if that helps. It doesn't take long to build a wheel. I have found this so much easier than cycle wheels. The rim is no more straight than cycle one, i.e. nearly but it seems to be less liable to do things you don't want when you nudge it over a touch in one place. At least the rim is meant to be central with the hub so no dish to mess with.
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Sorry, everything in my post seems to have been said before by others!
Maybe I missed the 2nd page! Oops. :-[