classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: PaulBurton on August 17, 2016, 09:25:25 AM
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I have a 1929 Excelsior with JAP engine nº I=350cc; O=OHV; Y=twin port; S=1929 build; 54073= serial number;; J=non-standard. The bike is complete and I am in the process of restoring it. It has been 'in the family' since 1931 (I have a sale receipt for £15 from the original owner dated May 1931 to my wife's uncle). I have had the magneto overhauled but am a bit stumped by the (very simple) electrics (most of the cables and wiring had rotted away). Anyone got any info on this machine or the wiring? Thanks
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Hi Paul,
It's possible that in 1929 the bike was offered by the factory with no electrics at all, and that the dealer added the lights too the customer's pleasure. You say "magneto", but is the bike fitted with a generator of some sort? If so, the brand of the generator and lights will dictate the exact detail of the wiring. If you can provide detail of the generator, lights, switch, etc. I'm sure we can come up with a wiring diagram.
Cheers
Leon
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If it did have electrics it would probably have a 3 brush dynamo with internal cutout and a headlight switch with a half charge resistor.
As said, the wiring diagrams for most are pretty straightforward (although the method of controlling the earth side of the field rather than the live side confused me somewhat.....)
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For 1929 you could also have had acetylene lamps, especially on the cheaper bikes.
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I also have a 1929 Excelsior, albeit the smallest in the range, not one of the bigger ones. It's been my habit for years to collect as much info as I can on any bike I have so I've accumulated much of what is available on the 1929 Excelsior range.
From your description you appear to have either a Standard Model No7 or a Tourist Trophy Model No11. There is little difference between the two, the obvious one being the Standard has a kick starter, the Tourist Trophy has rear set footrests and no kick starter with no means of fitting one. Electric lighting was an extra on both.
Excelsior advised that if electric lighting was fitted it should be ordered with the machine as it was built in during manufacture. In other words they would fit some sort of mag/dyno arrangement instead of the plain magneto of the base model. Companies such as Excelsior bought electric lighting sets as a complete kit from the relevant maker. This was much cheaper than buying separate items from different makers.
So, whatever make of mag/dyno is fitted also dictates what make of headlight, tail light, etc, is fitted also. This also dictates how the beast was wired up and what wiring diagram you need.
If you have a plain magneto with no dynamo to charge the battery it probably means the bike was bought without lights and an aftermarket lighting system installed. In that case anything goes.
You need to tell us a little more.
Cheers,
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So the most basic initial question should be...."does it have a dynamo fitted?"
If so then finding out the type of dynamo will lead to a typical wiring diagram. If not then it's either-
1) daylight only use,
2) find some acetylene lights or
3) rig up a total-loss electric set up.
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Hi everyone,
Many thanks for your posts and helpful contributions. Here is a pic of the bike as it was. I will be back where it is stored at the weekend and get some more pics/details then to send on. Hopefully these will be of help sorting the electrics. I will reply more fully after the weekend.
Many thanks
Paul.
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Jeez, did he store it in the village pond?
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Garden shed since 1958!! It's now with us in sunny Portugal. Here's how the JAP engine looks today!
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Hi Paul,
It's possible that in 1929 the bike was offered by the factory with no electrics at all, and that the dealer added the lights too the customer's pleasure. You say "magneto", but is the bike fitted with a generator of some sort? If so, the brand of the generator and lights will dictate the exact detail of the wiring. If you can provide detail of the generator, lights, switch, etc. I'm sure we can come up with a wiring diagram.
Cheers
Leon
Hi Leon thanks for this. There is no dynamo/generator. Just a BTH magneto (see pic) with headlight (Miller) with rotating dip switch on back, hooter and rear light - all 6v.
Any help?
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I also have a 1929 Excelsior, albeit the smallest in the range, not one of the bigger ones. It's been my habit for years to collect as much info as I can on any bike I have so I've accumulated much of what is available on the 1929 Excelsior range.
From your description you appear to have either a Standard Model No7 or a Tourist Trophy Model No11. There is little difference between the two, the obvious one being the Standard has a kick starter, the Tourist Trophy has rear set footrests and no kick starter with no means of fitting one. Electric lighting was an extra on both.
Excelsior advised that if electric lighting was fitted it should be ordered with the machine as it was built in during manufacture. In other words they would fit some sort of mag/dyno arrangement instead of the plain magneto of the base model. Companies such as Excelsior bought electric lighting sets as a complete kit from the relevant maker. This was much cheaper than buying separate items from different makers.
So, whatever make of mag/dyno is fitted also dictates what make of headlight, tail light, etc, is fitted also. This also dictates how the beast was wired up and what wiring diagram you need.
If you have a plain magneto with no dynamo to charge the battery it probably means the bike was bought without lights and an aftermarket lighting system installed. In that case anything goes.
You need to tell us a little more.
Cheers,
Thanks for this- really useful and good to know you have accumulated so much info! This is definitely a kick start, so its seems we are looking at a Standard Model 7. It seems there is no dynamo, just the magneto. 6v Miller headlight plus hooter and rear light, nothing else! So, i guess we are in 'anything goes' country! See the pics posted earlier.
Any further thoughts welcome - I'm a complete starter in this game!
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So the most basic initial question should be...."does it have a dynamo fitted?"
If so then finding out the type of dynamo will lead to a typical wiring diagram. If not then it's either-
1) daylight only use,
2) find some acetylene lights or
3) rig up a total-loss electric set up.
Hi Rex. Thanks for this. The answer is 'no' - no dynamo. 1&2 do not apply. There is a Miller 6v headlamp, hooter and rear light but no dynamo! Battery vanished!
Any further thoughts?
Paul.
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HI Paul,
The BTH magneto fitted also has a "dynamo" section sitting piggyback on top of the magneto
Its a rare survivor, I think they were called a mag-generator ??
No doubt it will need a full overhaul after all this time, including at least a magneto rewind and new condenser
The low voltage section may have survived in better condition as there is a lot less stress place on the insulation materials with 6volts
Regards
John
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BTH offered light sets for only a few years of the late twenties. I have a bike fitted with a BTH "dyno-mag", and some years ago managed to acquire at great expense a correct headlight to match it. That's the only BTH headlight I have ever seen!! To describe them as uncommon is a sweeping understatement. The BTH tail light is a generic bullet styled thing, and so I've given up on finding one. Any sort of late twenties electrical kit is hard to find, and expensive if you do; I'd be using the Miller headlight on the basis that you have it.
Somewhere I think I have a BTH brochure and wiring diagram. I'll see if I can find it and scan a copy to post.
cheers,
JFerg
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HI Paul,
The BTH magneto fitted also has a "dynamo" section sitting piggyback on top of the magneto
Its a rare survivor, I think they were called a mag-generator ??
No doubt it will need a full overhaul after all this time, including at least a magneto rewind and new condenser
The low voltage section may have survived in better condition as there is a lot less stress place on the insulation materials with 6volts
Regards
John
Hi John,
That explains it!!
Already had the overhaul and rewind - they didn't mention the piggy-back dyno though!
Thanks again
Paul.
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BTH offered light sets for only a few years of the late twenties. I have a bike fitted with a BTH "dyno-mag", and some years ago managed to acquire at great expense a correct headlight to match it. That's the only BTH headlight I have ever seen!! To describe them as uncommon is a sweeping understatement. The BTH tail light is a generic bullet styled thing, and so I've given up on finding one. Any sort of late twenties electrical kit is hard to find, and expensive if you do; I'd be using the Miller headlight on the basis that you have it.
Somewhere I think I have a BTH brochure and wiring diagram. I'll see if I can find it and scan a copy to post.
cheers,
JFerg
Thanks! That's really useful info. I'll treasure the Miller! If you do find the BTH brochure that would be a great help.
Tks again
Paul.
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If you want more info on the BTH mag/generator set up the VMCC Library lists a 1930 BTH Instruction Book for it. You may as well see what BTH themselves had to say about their product.
It's a lovely and oh so complete bike you have there and a really good one. It was also available with a 250cc JAP engine. Excelsior won the 1929 Lightweight TT with one of these. It's about as good as you can get for it's time. Lucky man!
Cheers,
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Paul, Attached some extracts that show precisely what the BTH light set consisted of. Quality isn't flash, but they're scans of copies. You can see that the wiring is far from complex!
At present you have a BTH magneto-generator, a Miller head light and a Lucas tail light. All of it is of the same period, more or less, but more importantly, it's all been on the bike for a long time, and you have it. Therefore I'd be using it all and paying no heed to any "originality" sniffles.
cheers,
JFerg
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If you want more info on the BTH mag/generator set up the VMCC Library lists a 1930 BTH Instruction Book for it. You may as well see what BTH themselves had to say about their product.
It's a lovely and oh so complete bike you have there and a really good one. It was also available with a 250cc JAP engine. Excelsior won the 1929 Lightweight TT with one of these. It's about as good as you can get for it's time. Lucky man!
Cheers,
Thanks - that's a useful lead to follow through. Yes, the old gal is pretty well 'all there' which is a good start. What's a bit special for us is its history - in our family from 1931. Not quite a single owner but not far off! Thanks again for your help and comments.
Paul.
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Paul, Attached some extracts that show precisely what the BTH light set consisted of. Quality isn't flash, but they're scans of copies. You can see that the wiring is far from complex!
At present you have a BTH magneto-generator, a Miller head light and a Lucas tail light. All of it is of the same period, more or less, but more importantly, it's all been on the bike for a long time, and you have it. Therefore I'd be using it all and paying no heed to any "originality" sniffles.
cheers,
JFerg
Thanks so much for this - a real help! I think even I can manage that wiring!! Yes, I intend keeping it all as much 'as is' (but restored!) as possible.
Thanks again for your help!
Paul.
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For a freebie with family history that looks a great find, I wouldn't mind it myself.
as has been said, keep it as it is equipment wise.
so many these days are obsessed with matching this and matching and don't bother to research or understand history.
Back then the owner would chop and change accessories and equipment as he felt like it, same as customisers do today.
The period catalogues are a guide, not holy writ, or infallible.
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For a freebie with family history that looks a great find, I wouldn't mind it myself.
as has been said, keep it as it is equipment wise.
so many these days are obsessed with matching this and matching and don't bother to research or understand history.
Back then the owner would chop and change accessories and equipment as he felt like it, same as customisers do today.
The period catalogues are a guide, not holy writ, or infallible.
Thanks for good and helpful advice - I'm a novice in this game!!
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Hi Paul,
I've been closely looking at your photos. Excelsior also made that model in 1930. Identical, except in 1930 they introduced chrome plating on the tank and a different transfer. You have the 1930 style tank.
This fits quite well with a 1929 made JAP engine as the bike year starts in September or so. It's not the calendar year. All early production 1930 Excelsior would carry a 1929 JAP engine number.
I think your bike may be a 1930 model.
I got my copies of the 1929 and the 1930 catalogues from BMS. If you get your own copies you'd see the same.
It makes absolutely no difference to what you have to do or whether it's vintage or not or anything else but you might find authorities get funny about paperwork when it comes time to put it on the road.
Cheers,
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Hi Paul,
I've been closely looking at your photos. Excelsior also made that model in 1930. Identical, except in 1930 they introduced chrome plating on the tank and a different transfer. You have the 1930 style tank.
This fits quite well with a 1929 made JAP engine as the bike year starts in September or so. It's not the calendar year. All early production 1930 Excelsior would carry a 1929 JAP engine number.
I think your bike may be a 1930 model.
I got my copies of the 1929 and the 1930 catalogues from BMS. If you get your own copies you'd see the same.
It makes absolutely no difference to what you have to do or whether it's vintage or not or anything else but you might find authorities get funny about paperwork when it comes time to put it on the road.
Cheers,
Thanks for this! The tank is (or rather was once!) chrome plated. I have had to get a new one made - exact replica, as the metal was too thin and perforated.
We have no documents for the bike (except the second hand sale receipt from 1931) so I only had the engine number to go on.
Incidentally, where is the frame number normally stamped? I have hunted high and low and cannot spot it!
Thanks again for the clarification.
Paul.
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No frame number? Why am I not surprised? Yours is the fourth Excelsior of the period I've come across without a frame number. I don't know what Excelsior were up to but something went weird in the late 1920's after which they started a new frame numbering sequence in 1931. The frame numbers started A for 1931, B for 1932 and so on. After the year letter came the model number and then the actual frame number. At one glance you can identify what year and what model. All well and good for the '30's but no good for the immediate period beforehand.
I used to have all sorts of wonderful theories why late vintage Excelsior frames in Australia weren't numbered but yours is a home market model so all my theories are out the window.
So, sorry Paul, can't help.
Cheers,
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No frame number? Why am I not surprised? Yours is the fourth Excelsior of the period I've come across without a frame number. I don't know what Excelsior were up to but something went weird in the late 1920's after which they started a new frame numbering sequence in 1931. The frame numbers started A for 1931, B for 1932 and so on. After the year letter came the model number and then the actual frame number. At one glance you can identify what year and what model. All well and good for the '30's but no good for the immediate period beforehand.
I used to have all sorts of wonderful theories why late vintage Excelsior frames in Australia weren't numbered but yours is a home market model so all my theories are out the window.
So, sorry Paul, can't help.
Cheers,
Well, that's reassuring in one way but distinctly puzzling in another way. I will at some point try to track down the original registration details - if I succeed it will be interesting to see what, if anything, is given as frame number!
I'll keep you posted on progress - but for now, thanks again for all your help and comments thus far!
Paul.
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OF is a Birmingham reg issued only from May 1929 to April 1930.
so that narrows it down and maybe Birmingham is the place to start asking?
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OF is a Birmingham reg issued only from May 1929 to April 1930.
so that narrows it down and maybe Birmingham is the place to start asking?
Thanks - that's a good lead. I knew it was Birmingham or nearby but had no fix on the dates!
Paul.
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Hi friends out there! I've been quiet on this for a year but work is progressing well on restoring the bike. I'll try to post a couple of update pics in the next few days. Meanwhile, concerning the registration date, I contacted the Kithead Trust who told me all Birmingham records have been destroyed. They did indicate that this bike with reg OF2038 would probably be from late summer of 1929 as OF6368 was the first number issued in 1930.
On another matter it looks like I am going to have to dismantle the clutch as it won't disengage. It's a 3 plate with central push rod and has 4 spring screws. Anyone got any hints before I take the plunge?
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The BTH mag dyno shown was in use by a number of manufacturers until the mid 30s. It puts out a snarling 4 amps for 24 watts, regulation is by a four position switch mounted in the headlamp. A BTH cut out was fitted in a separate housing usually mounted on the top of the tool box or on the frame. As pointed out in another post, pretty much any wiring diagram for a 3 brush dynamo will get you close, I doubt your Miller headlamp is original, but if it has the 4 position switch can be made to work. Original headlamp usually supplied with the BTH unit was the Powell and Hamner, I believe they merged in about 1926
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Hi Paul,
Before you dismantle the clutch, it might be worth trying a dodge? Pull in the clutch lever and use a cable tie to hold it against the handlebar
put the bike in gear and rock the bike back and forth, this may jar the plates free
You could also try with the above done put a flat bladed screwdriver between the tongues protruding through the clutch basket and gently try and pry the plates apart, working around the basket ????
John
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Thanks Chris. The Miller has the 4 postion control so hopefully this can work. I have the original BTH cutout control (mounted under the fuel tank) but suspect I will need to substitute this. 4 Amps! That's a healthy 6v!!
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Thanks John, that looks like a good tip. I have found that the 'specialist' who refurbished the Burman gearbox and clutch a couple of years ago returned it with the four clutch spring adjusters screwed fully in - I had overlooked this and of course this explains why there is no clutch movement. I have no idea why he did this but unfortunately I now have a situation where I have tried everyway possible to unscrew these. Trying to release pressure on the screws by clamping/compressing the plate has not worked. They are screwed in so far that the central threaded screw protrudes making it impossible to use a normal screwdriver to undo them. I'm in Portugal, he's in the UK so it's a bit difficult to land the problem back on him!! :-[
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Triumph have a tool for that job, or just grind an old screwdriver and use that.
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I'm in Portugal
I hope nowhere near the terrible fires.
Rex has good advice: sacrifice a big old screwdriver by grinding a gap in the middle to clear the stud.
Cheers
Leon
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Thanks Leon and Rex - I'll find the sacrificial screwdriver and get busy! Thanks too, we are well away from the dreadful fires. Frightening stuff.
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Clutch and gearbox sorted! Turning my attention back to the electrics. As previously mentioned the bike has a BTH mag/dyno and a Miller headlight with 4 settings O, C, L, H. The cut-out (photo) looks like it might function but I have some doubts! The wiring was (looking at the terminals in the picture) Left, generator; Middle, Battery (+)/lights; Right, Earth/battery (-). If this cannot be made to work, is it possible to substitiute with a Lucas type dyno/control box (as in pic) by just using the cut-out coil (terminals A/D/E)? I would obviosly prefer to use the original but might need a fall back.
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You have a third brush dynamo,around 30W from memory,not much,with charging resistances in the light switch.In the interest of originality,you ll need to stick with this.You can restore the outer casing of the cutout,and with a reco d dynamo,use a 6V solid state cutout made for Harleys and Indians,obtainable from the Harley suppliers in the US quite cheaply.
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Thanks John. The mag/dyno has been fully refurbished so should be no problems on that side. Hiding a solid state cutout in the original box looks like a far better option for that side of things. I'm still hoping the original cutout unit might be coaxed back into life! Thanks again!
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Hi Paul,
The solid state "cutout" is a simple diode,
I have fitted diodes similar to this ebay one instead of cut outs
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-Vishay-VS-12FR20-Thread-Mount-Switching-Diode-Stud-Anode-200V-12A-2-Pin-DO-4-/222277383310?epid=1692823240&hash=item33c0c3b48e:g:nscAAOSwLF1X-9CO
If the bike was mine I would convert to 2 brush and hide a solid state regulator somewhere
3 brush setups regulate the current not the voltage so are not kind to batteries
John
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Thanks John, that's a good lead and looks like a simple way to solve the problem
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No frame number? Why am I not surprised? Yours is the fourth Excelsior of the period I've come across without a frame number. I don't know what Excelsior were up to but something went weird in the late 1920's after which they started a new frame numbering sequence in 1931. The frame numbers started A for 1931, B for 1932 and so on. After the year letter came the model number and then the actual frame number. At one glance you can identify what year and what model...
Cheers,
Hello
[I'm new here, and specifically joined cml as I can't seem to find excelsior info anywhere else on the net]
I've go my a eye on 1938 (supposedly) excelsior 350 warrior - or possibly 250 norseman, but it does not have any paperwork - it's an ex-race bike. I had a look for a frame number on the headstock but couldn't see anything - I've since been told it may be on the seatpost? the engine is obviously not original so that doesn't help with dating either.
I would love to take it on as a project but not if I can't get an age related numberplate and so ride it on the road.
Do you know of a marque owners club?
sincerely Ben
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Hello Ben. Afraid I am a relative newcomer to all of this, my project being a 'one off' restoration of a 1929/30 that belonged to a distant relative. I'm not aware of any Excelsior owners club but have found the advice and encouragement received via this forum to have been really helpful. Let's see if one of the longer established forum members will give you some ideas!
Good luck,
Paul.
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Hi Ben,
The frame number is on the headstock but awkward to see. It's across the headstock directly behind the forks and headlight. It's extremely awkward to find and read if the front forks are still on. The complete number will identify both the year and model. It doesn't matter what the seller says it is. The number tells all.
Cheers,
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Hello All, afraid I’m chasing for more help on the 1929/30 Excelsior electrics and in particular the wiring for the Miller headlamp (unfortunately the original wiring had gone by the time I got to work on the restoration so I have little to go on). To recap, the machine has a BTH mag/dyno feeding into a cutout coil. Standard 6v -ve earth; tail light, hooter, ammeter, headlight with 2 filament main beam and pilot light.
The accompanying photos show the headlight terminals numbered 1-8 (anticlockwise from the driver’s view). Numbers 2, 6 & 7 are wired terminals. The rotor has 4 positions (again, anticlockwise from drivers view) Off, C(harge), L(ow), H(igh).
I have worked out the bridging of the contacts as follows for each of these positions (the first column relates to the first bridging contact going anticlockwise from the control lever, the second to the second bridging contact)
Off 4+5 1
C 5+6 1+2
L 5+6+7 1+2+3
H 6+7 2+3+4
Any thoughts/ideas greatly appreciated!
Paul.
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Hi Paul,
With your mix and match BTH / Miller components it will take some effort to make it work
I'm sure I can find the Miller 3 brush diagram in one of my Rudge books ??
But, I seem to remember there's a resistance fixed to the switch in my headlamp?
Again need to go and look !!
I wonder if there's a resistance on the underside of the cut out??
John
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Hi John, thanks for your reply - sounds like it might be some fun sorting this one out! There is no resistance on the underside of the cut out and no sign of one in the headlamp (only the strap connections between terminals 2&4; 3&6 as shown in the photo). If you are able to find your Rudge version of a Miller 3 brush setup that may well shed some 'light' on matters! Thanks. Paul.
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Hi Paul,
Since you do not have a resistance for the switch, causes a problem :(
It will not work without one, the resistance is switched in on the charge position to limit the dynamo output
and bypassed when full charge is needed when the headlamp is switched on
Hopefully the Rudge Miller diagram attached will give you some help on the other switch functions????
( I would still advise to fit an electronic regulator :o DVR2)
John
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Liking a challenge, I decided to keep the 3 brush dynamo on my 1931 Sunbeam. It's not brilliant but works as designed and I have no intention of riding it in the dark......
If it's of interest, the half charge resistor in the Lucas setup is 8 ohms.
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Hi John & Ian. Thanks for your replies - John for the Rudge diagram and Ian for some encouragement to persevere with the 3 brush setup (likewise, I will never be out on the roads at night!).
Looking at the Rudge diagram I noticed that the resistor was bridging terms 2 and 4. Looking at the inside of my Miller I see there is a bridge (photo on my post a couple of days ago shows this) so I have suddenly (and belatedly) realised this could be a resistance - even though it just looks like a copper/brass connector, So I dismantled it and checked with the multimeter and low and behold it came up with 8 ohms!
The puzzle now is why is there a second resistor (also measured at 8 ohms) between 3&6?
I'm so sorry to have misled you chaps by saying there was no resistance - anyway, I guess this is good news.
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Hi Excelsior friends out there! Pressing on with the restoration of the 1929/30 350cc and now turning my attention to the mudguards. I have the originals but they are pretty rough so any thought of recovering them seems a bit academic. Any ideas of who can best copy custom mudguards given the old ones as patterns? I have tried various local workshops here in Portugal, they are usually good at off-beat jobs but seem reluctant to take this on. Any good recommendations in the UK? Thanks.........
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Vintage Steel do beautiful repro guards: http://www.vintagesteel.com.au/
Cheers
Leon
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Hi
In the UK Simon Stephens has taken over Renovation spares
He does it on a part time basis,
I have sent you a PM with his contact email
John
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Thanks Leon & John, I'll follow those leads :)
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I like the 'budget flat pack'!
"For the budget conscious not too fussy about shape and have a few weeks to spare." ;D
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How is Renovation quality these days? I had a Norton mudguard from them about 25 years ago and it was good quality but heard that later they weren't so good.
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Hi,
My Brother purchased a couple from them recently and all is good
John
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Hello to any of my previous contacts on this subject. I have been getting on with the restoration and the final touch was getting the replacement exhausts (stainless steel) fitted. The bike is all ready to get lifted down to ground level and then I can see abot firing her up. Here are a couple of pics as she is.
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Looks good.
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Well done Paul! It's come a long way from the photos at the top of the thread.
Leon
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Thanks Ian and Leon. Your help and advice during the process was essential and much appreciated. Paul