classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: casperboat on January 22, 2017, 08:29:45 PM
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This motorbike has had a full restoration fairly recently, but it has no lights on it and no electrical system at all. I'm trying to find out whether that was how it was from new or whether it's more likely that these parts were all removed during the restoration to save sourcing or repairing expensive parts?
Regards. Gary
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In that era bikes were often sold without lights.
1930 you could still fit acetylene lamps if you wanted; horns would have been bulb horns, and like the lamps would not have come with the bike, nor a speedo.
This is the sidevalve? regarded as an economy model at that time.
You could have fun picking up lamps and mixing makes such as Miller or Lucas and no one can tell you different.
Lucas, Miller, Beta, Bosch P&H were just a few makes on offer, a well as from James Grose, Halfords, Pride and Clarke all sold their own stuff.
Won't be cheap, any of it. You do not need lamps on a vintage bike, or you can always fit LED push bike stuff for safety.
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There is a catalogue on the web http://motos-anglaises.com/ and all the 1930 RE models were offered with and without lights. The Model C had no lights, the CL had a electric lights powered by a Maglita (by then made by Lucas I think). If you were too cheap to buy a Model CL, you'd probably fit acetylene lights.
Leon
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Yes, both cardan and mini-me are right. It's easy enough to get yourself an English home market copy of the 1930 catalogue which will list all the possible variations and what accessories the factory offered. You may be surprised to find what was considered an accessory back then and not a standard fitment. Not only lighting but also horn, mirrors, speedo, pillion and pillion footrests and more. Some of these things were required to make the bike road legal but they were still accessories as far as the manufacturer was concerned. The nonsense surrounding all these oddities are what gave rise to modern consumer law.
Cheers,
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Thanks, very interesting. I can get the link to the French brochure, can anyone point I the direction to see an English version for 1930..
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What bits do you need translated?
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What bits do you need translated?
Found the bit I was looking for "Royal Enfield Model C; As described above (without lighting devices)". So wouldn't be wrong to leave it with no lights..
Thanks..
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Girder forks always look a bit "bare" with no lights fitted, I always think. :-\
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Both the VMCC Library and the National Motorcycle Museum have copies of 1930 Royal Enfield info for sale. You can not only get a copy of the 1930 home market catalogue but spare parts lists, drivers handbooks, etc. Copies of all are useful in getting to understand your bike. You've spent a fair bit of money buying your bike, it's sensible to spend a tiny bit more so you can use it to the best advantage.
Cheers,
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(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2762/32994028266_85f724a15d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Sgz27j)WP_20170221_14_56_26_Pro (https://flic.kr/p/Sgz27j) by ghost.hut1 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36515103@N08/), on Flickr
Here's a picture of the bike.. I have a 1929 copy of the parts booklet for this model and it shows the same brake and clutch levers as mine has, it doesn't show the reverse bar end type that I have seen on other bikes, so I can assume mine are correct. The twist throttle certainly isn't right, it should have a lever. There is no advance/retard lever as the bike has an updated magneto which does it all automatically.. The silencer on it is close to the original and looks good, but the original is slightly lower..
I'm going to see what other booklets I can get on it, and considering changing the throttle to a lever to make it look more authentic..
Gary
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Do you know what model it is Gary? With the magneto drive on the off side it's clearly not a 1930 Model C.
All the models in the 1930 catalogue show inverted levers, but you'd do best to identify (and date) the bike before you decide what's what.
As a guide, BSA did away with inverted levers in 1930, and although you could still get a double lever for the throttle/air control an AMAL straight-pull twist grip was standard on most models. Repro versions of these are available, as are originals if you keep an eye out.
Cheers
Leon
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Hi Gary,
To have a twist grip or not? The twist grip throttle was around in 1930 but the issue isn't so much the twist grip but how you use it with a hand gear change. A modern twist grip snaps shut when you let go of it and does not work well with a hand change. Having the throttle snap shut every time you go to change gear is a nonsense. Twist grips of the period either had a degree of friction built in or had an adjustable friction pad so they didn't snap shut if you didn't want them to. A lever throttle has friction built in and to my mind is the best of the lot for easy gear changing. It is also somewhat of a deterrent to others thinking they can blag a ride.
So, fit a period twist grip or a lever but don't use a modern one.
Twist grips were at a funny stage in 1930. Binks sold a 'racing' twist grip which you would instantly recognise as an ordinary twist grip of today with the throttle cable curling around a drum in the grip as the rider opened up. This was thought to weaken the cable so it could break if used daily on a road bike. Amal favoured the straight pull twist grip where the inner cable was pulled in a straight line along the grip which riders thought better for the cable. Quickly riders found the straight pull version wore and developed slop reducing fine throttle control whereas the cable end in the Binks style didn't break and provided consistent throttle control. The Binks style is still used today.
Happy riding,
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Do you know what model it is Gary? With the magneto drive on the off side it's clearly not a 1930 Model C.
All the models in the 1930 catalogue show inverted levers, but you'd do best to identify (and date) the bike before you decide what's what.
Leon
Hi. As far as I know it is a model c, at least that's what the previous owners say, the bike was dated by the VMCC in 2012 so it could be registered as it had been off the road for many years. The registration says 1930, but it just says Royal Enfield 350. The magneto is not original. The sales brochures do show inverted levers, but, oddly the 1929 parts booklet I have, which is for the model c, only shows the brake levers like mine has.
There's a 1930 FL30 on youtube that has the magneto where mine is, but on Hitchcocks site I see their 1930 picture of a model c also has the magneto like mine, yet another 1930 Model C I found on google images has the drive on the opposite side to mine.. I'm not knowledgable enough to know, but I do like it :)
I think I will swap the throttle as it does drop the revs back to tickover as soon as you let go of it, though it ticks over nicely..
Gary
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That twistgrip does look as though it may have a friction adjuster behind the cable exit although the photo's not clear enough for me to be sure.
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That twistgrip does look as though it may have a friction adjuster behind the cable exit although the photo's not clear enough for me to be sure.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2400/32667586340_f34a9062e2_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/RLHVif)WP_20170222_10_17_32_Pro (https://flic.kr/p/RLHVif) by ghost.hut1 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/36515103@N08/), on Flickr
Yes, I suppose that little nut and bolt could be one..
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Doesn't look original (too long) so you need to check the little "damper shoe" is in place inside, too. Lots were discarded over the years.
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I'd stop worrying about little things like that and get it well sorted first.
The silencer is one of those pride and clarke repro "brooklands" cans that were popular some years ago with the look-a-like crowd.
Years ago I fitted one to a cobbled up from spares bike, its sole asset was that it acted like an echo chamber instead of a silencer and made a lovely racket; [according to whether you were riding on it or being deafened by it as I rode past]
Having looked at the photo of your bike, I am going to be hard and say its not a bad little bike, but if I wanted to go where I think you want to go,I wouldn't start from there.
A decent period set of bars,those are horrible, to take inverted levers and a straight pull throttle plus the lights you want could easily cost you as much as the bike if you wanted to go strictly original.
The correct non inverted levers should be solid brass, easily 150-200 for a genuine used set, you should beware of, and avoid indian made crap, although you can get good UK made inverted sets, or from the guy in Czech republic.
If it was my bike I'd get a period magdyno, there is one for overhaul on ebay now at 40£, and a small period lamp, junk the brooklands fake and repaint the tank in a correct style and colours.
Its not a bad little bike, ride it.
I am very very biased against the VMCC and just because they say its one year or another I would not take it as holy writ, they'll approve almost anything for cash.
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Out for a spin today, the hand gear lever judders itself into neutral, so I don't know if the lever should have a spring on it, or if the lever needs more of a bend. Unfortunately the bike also broke down with fuel pouring out of the carb, which I hope just needs a new washer.. A nice walk home pushing the bike, at least I was only 1/3 mile away..
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Hi All,
Doesn't look original (too long) so you need to check the little "damper shoe" is in place inside, too. Lots were discarded over the years.
Most of the twistgrips I see of this type seem to have too long a screw fitted ?
This feature has become a "pet Hate" of mine >:(
A few years ago A friend was knocked off the "Norton Dommy" he was riding
His only serious injury was a neat hole in his knee and resultant fractured kneecap caused by hitting the
friction adjusting screw :o :o :o
WTF!!!!
John
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What you are finding out is the wisdom of checking over the esentials before worrying over what "looks right".
As for the carb, strip it clean it, seat the float needle, check the washer under the large union.
Try and find out how to adjust the gear change linkage, that would cause jumping out of gear or it could just be the gearbox is buggered.
Personally I don't like the way the rod seems to have been bent to clear the non standard magneto.
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The gear lever doesn't have nor need any sort of spring but you have to know how to adjust the linkage. Before you start adjusting ensure all clevis joints are unworn and in good order, also the gear lever pivot. This is the sort of fussy detail that many restorers just skate over. Adjust the linkage so it pushes firmly into top gear and stays there, then back in to bottom gear and seats firmly there. Let middle gear fall where it will. You may have to tweak either the gate or the lever with a file for middle to sit nicely in its slot. Same with neutral.
Don't worry about the bent rod in the linkage. If you look in old period catalogues you'll see lots of bent rods. Many linkages were not elegant nor met engineering niceties.
It is common for bottom gear to drop out if the box is well worn. Sturmey Archer boxes will soldier on well past the point a modern box would cry enough. They are not hard to work on, merely hard to find decent spares for. I can see your kick start hangs too low, it is an integral part of bottom gear so I'm not too surprised that it drops out.
Keep at it, the end result will be a bike you can happily ride anywhere. I think you have the standard restoration. All the shiny bits done but the fine detail put in the too hard basket.
Cheers,
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I think you have the standard restoration. All the shiny bits done but the fine detail put in the too hard basket.
Good expression! I said very much the same (though not as witty!) on the old RC site recently where the regulars were going gooey over someone flogging a new-paint-and-chrome BSA Spitfire which was clearly sporting some of those "too hard" basket finishing touches. Still, bling baffles brains as they say..
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Its like those ebay listings,
a"fortune spent, just needs finishing, " ;D
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It sounds as though the gear linkage has too much play in it or is incorrectly timed.
Timing is done essentially by checking that the lever moves the same distance either side of the neutral detent before touching the adjacent (1st and 2nd) gears. On my Sunbeam, the spring in the lever holds it against the detents and holds it in the correct positions.
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Over the years when these old bikes took people to work, the simple first fix when the gears didn't engage properly or nicely, was to grab ahold of the linkage and bend it where possible.
I wonder how many renovated bikes had these bends replicated when new linkages were made...?
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Half the problem is this bike was owned by an elderly chap and was rebuilt 8 years ago and then he never rode it. He gave it to his son, who sold it straight away. It really needs recommissioning, which is what I'll have to do. Luckily I like tinkering..
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Just start at the beginning and work through it all slowly and methodically, not just the engine but cycle parts a well, if you take it all to bits, you won't ride it again this year.
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Interesting isn't it Ian. The Sturmey Archer 3 speed way is the exact opposite to the Sunbeam way. Firmly in top first for S/A, then bottom and finally middle gear with neutral a long way last. Who cares about neutral, it's only a convenience for starting and wheeling the bike around the garage. I'd liked to have been a fly on the wall listening to the different designers express their thoughts back in the day. It would seem Mr Sturmey and Mr Archer approached their gearboxes from quite a different direction to Mr Sunbeam yet both solutions obviously worked.
For me a lot of the pleasure in vintage motorcycles is trying to nut out what the designer was trying to achieve and how did he work around the various constraints his factory put upon him. No point designing something that the factory didn't have the machinery to make it on or couldn't make it cheaply enough to be commercial. For the same reasons designers kept up some archaic design features well past their use by date but the factory had too much invested to change.
Ain't it all fun.
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Ain't it all fun.
Indeed. Although "fun" isn't exactly how it sometimes feels at the time......
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Some good news to report.I cleaned the carb and fitted new washers, I then took this bike to my brother's mate, who is, apparently, big in the vintage bike world. He corrected the gear linkage, fitted a new plug and rode it around his paddock with no problems. He says the gearbox seems fine and is now changing, and staying, in all the gears. He said I need to stop riding it like my 2 stroke Bantam and be more gentle with the throttle. He reckons the engine is very good. So I am a lot more happy now.. I'll just ride it around to get used to it, and i'll probably fit some more appropriate looking handlebars, rather than these Vincent Straights that are on it..
Gary
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Excellent. :)
not such a disaster after all,never be too proud to ask.
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Hi, I went to start this as the weekend and when tickling the carb no fuel came out of the hole in the top, which it normally does.. I took the top off the float chamber and it was about 2/3 full of fuel with the bowl floating. I pushed the bowl down, expecting the chamber to fill up, but it stayed the same level. So I took the bike for a spin, as it was sunny.. It started misfiring after a short distance. When I got back I checked the float again and there was no much fuel in there. I drained the tank and checked the tap filter, which looks okay. There was some muck in the fuel but not loads, though the last bit to drain out was cloudy...
But the carb is still the same, no fuel flooding when tickled. Am I missing something? Suppose I need to take the carb apart again. The main body of the carb is still dripping fuel, but it stops once the engine is started..
Regards
Gary
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Probably the tap. Take the connection off the carb (with tap off), attach some pipe exiting in a bowl etc and turn the tap on to check flow.
You do have petrol (and enough on the right side) in the tank?
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A few people said I should try it with the fuel cap off. So I did, and the bowl filled right up when I pushed the float down. The cap has a tiny air hole in it, which I can blow through but when I push the inner part up the resistance to my blowing increased a lot. Maybe I'm putting the cap on too tight or should I drill the tiny holes a bit bigger?
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No, as long as its clear leave it alone,seems to me youu have a blockage in the fuel line somewhere,
start formthe tap oncemore and ensure all fuel ways are clear, especially those inside the carb.
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I guess the hole could have been blocked but been cleared when I blew through it.. Taking it for a ride will confirm whether or not the problem has been sorted..
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....And if you go for a ride and the engine conks again, and you loosen the cap and the engine restarts (ie the fuel can be seen to flow in the pipe) then you've sussed it!