classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => European and Other Bikes => Topic started by: Terrotmt1 on August 29, 2017, 03:01:40 PM
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Hello, I am at the near end of my restoration of my 1950 Terrot MT1, very much the French equivalent of a BSA Bantam.
single 2 stoke, all stripped, new rings, super clean carb and re-magnetised magneto. Fat blue sparks when you turn it over by hand on the kick start.
Should start?
Not a chance. Fresh fuel etc but absolutely nothing.
The plug has never got wet while I have tried and tried to get it going. I've tried Easy Start too, nothing. All the passages in the barrel are clear as is the lower crank case, head gasket it tight.
I've tried different timing positions, the French say 5mm piston Down from TDC, I've tried this and 2mm, nothing. Points gap is 0.4mm.
The fuel level is exactly to the top of the vertical main jet that the tapered needle goes into, the carb is an AMAL/AMAK and every hole (there are not many) is clear.
I am at a loss what to do try next, but the skip next door is tempting....
What am I missing here?
Hope somebody can help. The people on the Terrot.org site are not very forth-coming.
Thanks, Graham.
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Two things.
First. the initial start of a two stroke after an engine rebuild can be a right stinker. No problems after that first start but that first start can drive you nuts. Don't ask me why. I've been known to use a large socket mounted in a big drill to spin an engine over at warp speed in this situation. It worked.
Second, the dry plug is telling you something. It doesn't matter what you say you've done if the plug is dry then no mixture is getting through the engine up to it. What does it have in the way of crankcase seals? Some rely on the presence of a lot of oil to work efficiently.
Many two strokes need a good flooding for the initial cold start but not once they're warm. Yours sounds as if it may fall in this category.
Cheers,
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Thank you very much for your reply. Another has said the first start is 'irritating'...
The engine has 2 seals, felt, in steel carriers. There are no spared for these engines, so I put them back, but just how effective they are....
The dry plug is a real signal as you say, and it seems to refuse to send a charge to the chamber.
I will see just how leaking the case is today. I'll hold the crank at 1/2 stroke which I think will have the inlet port exposed, the exhaust masked by the piston and with an foot pump pressurise the chamber and listen.
I had already thought of using a power drill to wind it up, but not sure if I could get the 16mm socket off the crank/flywheel nut fast enough if it fired.
If I have to I'll pull the whole engine apart and fit modern sealed brgs as a last attempt.
One seal is shown (# 33457) but the magneto side seal is missing off this diagram (it is the factory drg)
http://terrot.club.pyreneen.free.fr/basse_resol/pieces-detachees/100/mt1/pd6-22.jpg
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Looks nice job.
I have used the 'big drill' and socket many times on a Villiers engine. The socket will usually just fall off when the engine starts, if not stop engine and try again.
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Thanks, it is a nice bike and I chose it to have a bit of a challenge after the easy-but-expensive Lambretta and the similarly ££££ Honda CB 175.
I was hope for this start-up to be easy!
Getting info on this bike is hard work, even the French Terrot site is lacking in response as these bikes I think were not popular in their day. Parts are even harder, no gasket sets etc let alone more intricate parts, like crank shaft seals!
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It sounds like your seals are worn out. Personally I would prefer to make new felt seals than use sealed bearings but that's just my preference.
If you talk to an industrial felt supplier you will find they have very constructive suggestions on how to go about it, what clearances would be appropriate and what grade of industrial felt to use. I would expect it to be the hardest grade. Some suppliers can make up the seals for you but if not they can be water jet cut very accurately. They need to be an air tight fit on the crankshaft with the oil soaked in to provide the air tight seal. I would soak them in oil for at least a week before fitting.
Let us know how you get on.
Cheers,
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Yes, I am sure you are correct.
It is not too tricky to get to the seals which are both felt in a steel ring.
I have just looked at Nitrile rubber seals, the type you have in modern machinery as opposed to the oil impregnated felt, but will try to get close to the original design first.
Modern 2 stroke engines seem to hold 6 or so psi case pressure for minutes under test, surely felt seals can do that?
Hope to get the seals out today, will report back.
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Did some probing this morning. Set the piston at TDC and put some air pressure into the case via the inlet manifold having removed the magneto and the clutch side cover.
This exposes the 2 crank seals so with some soapy water drowned the magneto side. Air simply gushes out of the seal!
On the clutch side there is no air passage at all, possibly because the other side leaks so much.
next stage is to try to seal the mag side seal to force the pressure against the clutch side seal.
The crank case gasket seal is leak free.
Hard to take a picture while pumping air into the engine by hand!
(https://s20.postimg.org/ijstcdgrx/P1060378.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Well, another few hours in the garage, but little progress.
Suggested by a French Man, I sealed a latex glove onto the inlet port and turned the engine over rapidly using a socket set with the plug out.
The glove inflated! Thus there must be a pressure coming out of the case to the inlet manifold.
This cannot be correct.
The 'seal' on the magneto side is in fact a brass bush neatly machined with a revers 'scroll' to return any oil back to the case and away from the magneto.
Thus, absolutely nothing I can do to enhance the seal.
Bad bit is I had to tear the whole engine down to find this out!
Half way back together, but the assembly of the (un sealed) kick-start shaft refuses to line up so enough for the day. Another play tomorrow.
There are no seals on the shaft and it sits right in the bottom of the oil sump that serves the gearbox by splash lubrication, so I am expecting the oil to simply come out of the bottom where the shaft comes out of the case!
Stupid design!?
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I think you'll find it's common for two-strokes to puff out the inlet tract.
Way back when scooters were cool a workmate had a Lambretta with a polished alloy external air intake. At tickover it was possible to see oily mixture coming back out of the inlet.
As for "stupid design" it's lasted this long so can't be that bad!
{Though that said, it is French!}
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Hi
There is a business near me that makes all kinds of custom seals
Their CNC "lathe" turns out many different designs at very reasonable costs
They have made seals for my projects as small as a 3 x 3mm section
http://www.abbeyseals.ie/
On a recent project engine I shortened the bush in the clutch chainwheel and fitted the custom seal
In a bid to keep the heavy gear oil away from the clutch
From my limited experience of 2 smokes with plain crank bushes (seagull outboards :o)
they need a high oil / petrol ratio, 10 or 12 to 1
usually SAE40,
I don't think modern 2 stroke oil works with them ?
John
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Thanks John.
Terrot designed this engine this way as a cheap but reliable bike and there are YouTube clips that show them firing up in one kick!
The crank runs in 50mm dia ball bearings, the magneto side has this 15mm long bush, about 12mm ID and the scroll cut into the inside bearing face. Other (clutch) side is a simple felt seal.
So the mag side has a large ball bearing and then immediately the brass sleeve running very close on the crank shaft.
I'm going to leave this arrangement as original and try to sort out why there is a positive pressure from the inlet manifold when the engine is turned over quickly.
I think the piston is worn.
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Hi
There will always be some blowback pressure with two stroke engines turned over at low speeds
due to the transfer ports being open after the exhaust port closes as the piston rises
when the engine is running gas inertia reduces this to negligible amounts
Apply some heavy oil or grease to the bush and felt seal to see if it will seal enough to draw fuel into the engine
Theres no harm in using modern materials to get and keep an old bike running
If the material was available back then they would have used it
John
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The close fitting bronze bush type of crankcase seal works very well. My vintage Villiers two strokes use nothing else. In fact their crankshaft main bearings are nothing but a long bronze bush on each side. It was common practice in early two strokes. Making sure these plain bearings are properly lubricated does emphasise the need to use the manufacturers recommended petrol/oil ratio and not reduce it because "modern oils are better". (I never could see the thinking behind that one.)
And as CL25 says, there always is some blowback from the inlet manifold. It performs a useful function in keeping those old fashioned wire mesh air filters effective by constantly spraying a little fresh oil on them. The mesh stops gravel getting in the motor, the oil catches the fine particles.
It sounds like you have the seal problem under control. I look forward to you reporting the engine start.
Cheers,
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Thank you both.
I imagine the faster the engine turns the less leakage as the change cannot move fast enough to leak out, but I'll measure the piston skirt clearance while it is apart again.
I've rebuilt far more complex engines than this one so frustrated this simple device is so troublesome.
I have another far larger project that needs starting asap and wanted to get this bike done to make way.
Time slips by quickly!
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Thank you all for watching and commentating, it certainly helps in these 'dark' hours!
IT FIRED!
Yep, I kid you not, it actually went bang several times, though did not run.
MY PLUG IS WET!
Yep, miracles do happen on a wet Tuesday.
so, what have I done to get to this high level of restoration?
Not sure TBH. Stripped the engine down fully and built it back up. The kick start gear is drawn incorrectly on the factory diagram, so having fathomed out how the mechanism works I did a dry build, confirmed the assembly and simply screwed it all back together.
Decided to try and effect a better case seal and close off the scroll bearing on the magneto side using a stack=up of O rings. There is a 0.25/0.5 compression on these when the flywheel is on, so I hope (with some oil in them) to effect a better seal that might last. I oiled well the clutch side felt seal while the cases were apart.
Set the timing at 4mm BTDC (a Frenchman says it should be 5mm).
Popped the carb back on. Fuel in the bowl.
Gave the kick start some hard shoves and it felt/sounded different.
After some more enthusiastic shoves it started to fire and stopped. Rested my arm and repeated, and bang it went several times and even a trickle of about 6 ignitions then no more.
I have left the exhaust pipe off so I can hear any changes more accurately.
going to ry 5mm BTDC and see if that helps.
Anyway, a few steps forward. Maybe the bloody thing will stop fighting me now.
(https://s20.postimg.org/746m2srvx/P1060382.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://s20.postimg.org/me6h9zne5/P1060383.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Hi,
What oil petrol mix are you using?
John
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Can you shift it out of the way so I can have a look at the old Porsche?
I expect Barnier's put a curse on the little bike anyway..
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For this lot I'm using straight petrol. If it fires and runs, then I can stop it quickly.
Can't imagine that dosing the petrol with 2 stroke oil will change much. (?)
today, as an experiment, I made an adaptor and fitted a new cheap 2 stroke carb for an 80cc engine. I hoped this would give the engine a rough but consistent fueling, but it failed to run.
The old Porsche is a 1973 911T with a 3.2 engine and a lot of mods.
Used to be my hill climb/road car and I've had it since 1988.
My main interest is hill climbing, the bikes are small side projects, though this one is consuming too much time!
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Very nice too, and an unusual colour (to me, at least).
Sling the little Frog aside and go for a drive before the crap weather sets in. ;)
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I wouldn't use straight petrol. If it is supposed to be running on a 5% mix then the carb is 5% out before you start plus the oil forms a working part of the crankcase seals.
You amused me with the "why is something so simple so bloody minded?". We 2strokers all find out the hard way that simple doesn't necessarily mean easy.
Cheers,
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Had a surprise this afternoon.
In a weak moment I choked the carb with my finger (like a model aeroplane engine), gently eased it over a few cycles, returned the kick start to the top and gave it a healthy stab down by hand.
It RAN for 5 seconds before running out of the last puddle of petrol I left in the carb bowl.
It sounded great too. Good to smell carbon Monoxide instead of hydrocarbons for a change in the garage!
Yes, time to add oil to the petrol. I would not like to have it run free of lube again.
I just did not expect it to run!
The 911 is coming off the road very soon for a re-paint, same colour, Champagne Yellow, a Porsche colour from 1968. Very easy to see the car any weather. I painted it in cellulose in 1988 in a one car garage so it has done well. It will be pro painted next time.
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Hi,
I mentioned earlier that those old plain bush 2 stroke engines need a strong oil/ petrol mix
SAE 40 at maybe 12 to 1,
As said its the oil that makes the "sealing" work
John
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Yes you did. Oil I have is too thin, so will get some for a classic.
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I mentioned earlier that those old plain bush 2 stroke engines need a strong oil/ petrol mix
SAE 40 at maybe 12 to 1,
As said its the oil that makes the "sealing" work
I've read this lots of times, but I think it should say "worn out plain bush engines might actually run if you put heaps of thick oil in the fuel".
In my experience if the mainshafts are round and true, and the bushes are line reamed to give a close running fit, the motor will run fine on the usual (for modern oils) 25 or 30:1.
The key place to look for wear in an old two stroke is in the mainshafts/main bushes, and in the cylinder just above the ports (not just near the top as in a four stroke). A 2-stroke with too much wear at these places will not run properly. Sort it out, and you'll be amazed.
Cheers
Leon
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Thank you for the comments.
The crank runs in 2 45mm dia roller bearings, both in great condition, the mag side has a close fitting bronze bush with the oil grove in its bore.
Clutch side has a normal felt seal saturated in car engine oil.
The areas around the barrel ports are clean and true, no scores etc, piston the same.
The engine was oddly clean inside when I stripped it, gearbox free of oil, almost washed out clean.
There was carbon deposits in the head and down pipe, case bottom was quite clean.
I think this engine is a low miles unit, but the gears could be in better condition, esp 2nd.
Looks like a lot of clutch less changes.
There are no spares, no orphan engines etc anywhere, this is a survivor of a bike, most must have been scrapped.
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The larger Chinese carb arrived yesterday, and a little modern beauty it is too!
Made a simple adaptor to fit the flange on the carb to the inlet on the engine, added some fuel and put the choke on FULL.
Pushed the kick start down hard as ever and it instantly RAN!! And for 10 seconds until I closed the choke too far.
Repeated it the start and it ran and ran and ran....had to stop it by putting my hand over the inlet and flooding the engine.
AMAZING!
So, with this serious progress for 15 $ I need to tidy the adaptor flange, and get the throttle to open and close correctly etc and fit the silencer and see if I can tune it.
Also, with the assistance of Chambrier I have a new output sprocket, excellent customer service from Chambrier, very impressed.
Onwards and upwards!
(https://s26.postimg.org/r0icfnz2x/P1060394.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://s26.postimg.org/cil57o7rt/P1060395.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://s26.postimg.org/sohhubcyh/P1060397.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://s26.postimg.org/q9u7nmm3d/P1060398.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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It runs, good work.
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Thanks. Really surprised how it just started.
On these early bike how are you supposed to stop them running?
There is a terminal post for the lights off the magneto and this should go via a switch but I can't see how to break the ignition circuit with the flywheel spinning.
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Run a wire to earth the points?
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Very tidy, well done.
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Thank you.
Run a wire to Earth the points?
There is not a wire like that on the diagram of this bike, the ignitions seems to be independent of everything else, I've the lights.
There is nothing else on this bike, not even a stop light.
All I have is the external connection that the light circuit is connected to.
I think a kill button was mounted on the handle bars, but this part was missing off the bike when I had it.
Can you detail things a bit for me please?
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Certainly. I'm not saying your bike had this set-up originally, but can you run a wire from the insulated side of the points to a handlebar-mounted kill-switch, such that when the button is pressed the points are earthed?
Note, don't use an old-style metallic push button or you'll get a tingle when you push it. ;)
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Hi,
Did the original carb have a tickover adjuster?
Usually they did not and the engine died if the throttle was shut off
If tickover is set on some old 2 strokes it can cause "surging" as you shut the throttle when riding the bike
John
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OK...
I cannot see anything to short the ignition out, though I will search again for the mag diagram.
It seems the wires from the lighting side go to a switch so if there is an off position on the lights, can that kill the ign somehow. I'm not sure how to do this (engine kill)
The tick over setting on the original carb is by a threaded sleeve on the top of the carb where the cable passes into the carb and to the piston.
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Hi,
To add the ignition cutout, You need to add in an extra wire
Connect it to the junction where the coil/condenser are joined to the points, this is usually a little stud and nut
Run the wire to where ever you want to fit the cut out button or switch, the button body or other side of the switch
must be earthed/grounded to the frame/engine
Ok on the carb, just like all the old smokies, revs up when the handlebar is turned right and engine dies when turned left
:o :o ::)
John
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Ha!
Thankyoufor the info, will see what I can rig up.
Older engines I've seen have a spring steel blade that the rider presses against the plug top and to earth to kill the ignition, but this is not shown on the factory engine diagrams.
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CL25 was right first time. Back in their day riders would have the throttle set so the engine stopped when it is completely closed. It was meant to be like that. Not only was it how you stopped the engine it also stopped four stroking and 'surging' on the over run. They also used a throttle twistgrip fitted with a friction adjustment that they kept tight enough so the throttle didn't close when you took your hand off it. You both twisted it open and closed. As the bike has no indicators you had to give clear hand signals instead. Having a twistgrip that slams shut when you remove your hand to signal doesn't earn you many brownie points from following drivers as they take avoiding action. If you wanted the engine to idle at red lights and stop signs you just didn't entirely shut it right off.
This original style set up suited the riding style of the day. Modern bikes have had standardised controls for so long we tend to forget these old bikes pre date all that and can be utterly different in their approach. There is no right way or wrong way. They just did things differently back then and it works just as well if you do it their way. In fact it can be quite entertaining setting it up as per factory and then drive your mates nuts letting them try to operate it.
Cheers,
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This is my first 'early' bike, my previous ones were a 75 Honda CB 175 and a 63 TV3 Lambretta, all had self closing throttles.
I have spent ages (and failed) to get this bike's throttle to self close, it always would stop 'early' and now I know why!
This makes all the sense in the world now, thank you all very much.
Hope to get the bike running properly off the tank and get it back on the ground this week and move towards selling it.
My next one is a humble Peugeot BIMA, 1952 and that has a pair of throttle cables, so must work in the same manner.
Great!
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Another old Froggie?
You must be a glutton for punishment!
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Lambretta and Honda were all DIY but you just spend yourself through the restoration via specialist sites.
These old French bikes are much harder!
BIMA:
(https://s26.postimg.org/3ykzspn89/P1050587.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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one "throttle" cable probaly works a decompessor as they do on mobylettes
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Think you are right.
I bought this BIMA from France but found the Terrot just down the road from me a month later so have not distracted myself with it until the Terrot is done and gone, just got it DVLA'd.
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This Terrot is driving me insane!
With the Chinese carb on it might start, and when it does it revs away like mad, will not 'throttle' at all.
If I put the new exhaust system on (absolutely straight through) it won't start.
When it did run today, the lights worked, so at least some good news.
Tried the original again, and nothing. It has never started with the original carb on. The carb is cleaner than when AMAC made it, fuel level is 'just' on the top of the main jet tube where it exposes in the bore of the carb, needle is on 2nd of 3 groves and the jet (there is only one) is '55' as per MT1 spec for the 903/165 carb.
Just what am I doing wrong!
The sparks are huge, blue and big, I could weld with them.
Timing must be right (5mm piston down BTDC) as it runs on the big Chinese carb.
HELP! >:(
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I think you may have an air leak somewhere in the intake.
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Thank you for the reply.
The original has a plastic sleeve and a 360 deg clamping ring and is tight on the inlet which is a direct spigot cost into the cylinder, but I will add grease to fill any small gaps and try again.
The large Chinese carb (Delorto copy) is jetted for something, not sure what, but was a cheap (£12) experiment to see if the carb was the issue to non-starting.
It proved to be so.
The original AMAC 903/165 carb is very simple, hard to see why it does not work which adds to the frustration.
I have emailed AMAL to see if they sell a new 'equivalent' carb to the AMAC. I'm not hopeful though...
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AMAL do not make a carb this small, so dead end there.
Put the original carb on and raised the needle to the max position, hand kicked it over a few times and it almost fired continuously (!), one of those 'so close-so far' feelings.
But, the first time this carb has shown any interest in running, so some progress.
Raising the needle increases the mixture for a given throttle position, so will try some tinkering about later.
I guess the way to kill a running engine with this carb is to close the twist grip and the point of the needle bottoms out on the main jet, so killing the fuel supply, hence needing the throttle a bit open to get it to run.
Any suggestions as to how high the slider needs to be for 'tick-over' position?
1 or 2 or more mm??
Trying to find a starting position.
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After a lot of trying and changing choke and throttle position the bike started. (big Chinese Carb on).
Even odder it responded to opening and closing the twist grip and ran for a good minute or longer. First time this has happened!
The engine got really hot, disconcertingly so with the down pipe a dull purple!
I stopped the engine.
This might signify the carb is far too weak.
IIRC when a 2 stroke down tube starts to colour it is too weak.
If this is so, then maybe this is why it is so hard to start?
It would not re-start after cooling down...
Found another carb on ebay.fr but for 125 Euro. Looks like it has been in a shed for a long time, but I need to progress somehow!
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Hi
Wrongly timed ignition will cause overheating very rapidly
I would aim for points just opening 2-3mm before top dead centre
Have you checked this already??
John
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Just had the same 'conversation' on another forum about this bike, thanks for your response.
The Terror spec is 5mm BTDC, about 28 deg btdc. It is measured/set by locating tdc and winding the engine back until the piston drops 5mm, that is the factory method.
I tried 2mm btdc but that was before re-magnetising the magneto flywheel.
I will pop the flywheel off and re-set at 2mm btdc, about 14 deg.
The heating was rapid and quite disconcerting, certainly cured the heat resistant paint on the cylinder head...
Can't get to the bike until Wednesday, so will re-set to 2mm and try again.
With the timing at 5mm and if too advanced, wouldn't the engine kick back when trying to kick start it?
Fingers and spanners crossed!
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HI,
2-3mm was just a base line figure to see if the bike runs
if 5mm is the book figure stick with that
If the timing was retarded, ie after TDC then unburned fuel continues to ignite in the exhaust system causing
the pipes to discolour or even glow red hot
Its best to go turn the engine back more than the book figure then rotate it in the running direction to the desired figure
Fresh paint can deceive as it cures giving off smoke and fumes giving the impression of lots of heat :o
John
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Take your points.
Modern 2 strokes seem to run 2mm btdc.
If I run it at 2mm then if anything the spark arrives a bit late and the piston is on it's way down before the combustion.
5mm is to allow time to get the spark through the magneto and to the plug 'just' after tdc, more power per stroke.
At this point in time I'm looking for an easier start and a reliable one too cold or hot. Right now at 5mm is is luck it runs.
The head smoked which I expected, but the mild steel unpainted (natural steel finish) turned dark purple (450 deg C?) inside of a minute, for a length of about 150mm from the pipe retaining collar which was unpainted and certainly dark blue in that time.
30 secs later (ie 1.5 mins of tick over and rev up/down action) it worried me to a point I thought the engine might seize, so I killed the engine by closing the throttle completely.
If it won't start readily at 5mm then 7mm would be worse?
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Hi,
With a flywheel magneto the "window" to get a good spark is quite narrow
The points need to just break when the magnets are evenly sat over the coil pole pieces
So in reality the magnets, piston and points position in relation to each other is fairly critical
The points opening position is more important than the fully open gap (in most cases) depending on the limitations of the points adjustment design
In my youth I struggled with various 2 stroke engines, even to resorting to converting to battery and coil in a bid to get good running ::)
John
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In later years a battery version of the bike was the norm!
This little Terrot is a touch crude, or minimalistic to be kinder...
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Most two strokes I've had anything to do with start (but not always run) better with a bit more advance. I would be putting it to what the manual says and try that.
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The engine is at 5mm btdc as per the info I can find.
Tic is very vague, bit of play in the rod bearings.
I will drop the piston by 10mm btdc and come up so taking the back lash out of it I hope.
I need to make some progress, I have something wrong here, but it is nearly right.
In one data page they time the engine at 5mm or 28 degrees.
I timed my Lambretta with a protractor.
If I can get a true tic if the crank, I can set the crank back 28 deg easy.
Trouble is getting a true tdc!
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Hi,
To get true TDC make up a piston stop tool
I have made several and keep each one for different bike engines I set and lock them to the before TDC figure after setting up the protractor (degree disc)
This means all I have to do the next time to check the timing is screw in the tool
If you make one from an old sparkplug body and use 6mm rod, then its easy to set the desired figure as the thread pitch is 1mm. (Of course this only works when the sparkplug is vertical with the cylinder
https://www.google.ie/search?q=piston+stop+tool&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gws_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=0hDeWbOEIJHLwALb-7kQ
John
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Good thinking!
Spent some time on the bike today.
Tried 5 different timing positions and on 4mm the engine started after a fair bit of hand kick starting and ran quite well, certainly no massive heat up.
Stopped it and tried to restart.
Got going after a while...
Tried 2mm through to 7mm and no luck. Back to 5mm and no luck!
Thought I would check the points gap to find the points are closed.
Moreover, the heel of the points 9the plastic part) that runs on the 'cam' on the flywheel hub is suddenly badly damaged. Probably count it after replacing the flywheel.
I know there are no spares, searched before, so I need to make a new heel from delrin.
Not exactly the largest part to make by hand (and my old lathe) but needs must.
When will this ever end.
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Before a fresh air outing in the Boxster this morning I had a go at making the plastic 'heal' for the points.
Bit of lathe, bit of drilling, bit of hacksaw, bit of filing and a bit of scraping with a razor blade and all was done in 20 mins!
Installed and could only get the points gap down to 20 thou (should be 14) but put the flywheel back on at 5mm BTDC, added fuel and swore at it (sort of John Cleese style) such is my relationship with this French Fancy.
Several dead pan kick starts, wide open throttle, 3/4 choke and it started. That is the quickest it has done it so far.
Stopped the engine by fully closing the throttle (this is how to kill the engine).
Paused for thought, and kicked it several times, and it re-started, full throttle, 3/4 choke. Stopped the engine and went out, slightly pleased.
Came back this afternoon and it did it again!
I think I'm making some progress and refining the starting technique, full throttle opening, 3/4 choke and swear at it!
If this repeats itself tomorrow, I will tidy the mounting of the carb and find a period style air filter to 'hide' the modern carb.
I will also re-fit the original carb, just in case that works....
(https://s1.postimg.org/4vffe4q8an/P1060401.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://s1.postimg.org/8g3nagiwdb/P1060403.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Good work. Do you swear in Gallic? Might help. ;D
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Never thought of that, must google the subject! :)
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I have decided that the bike is now ready as it ever will be for sale. The Lola Porsche is waiting for a cosmetic re-build, and the first race is only 4 months away, so I need to get going.
The parts for the carb have been fettled and painted and an air filter from a Royal Enfield has been adapted to the new Chinese carb to try to get a bit of an authentic look back.
It was time to get the bike off the stand for the first time since 10 months ago which allowed the final parts to go on, the chain guard and the foot pegs.
Out with the engine hoist and a gentle lift off the stand and onto the floor using the bike's own stand and time for a few pictures.
When the sun shines a bit I'll take some good pics and get the bike advertised.
Phew!
Quite a trip this one, surprisingly tricky which is what I wanted as the previous two were too easy/expensive.
The whole bike as you see it has cost about £2400 inc the initial cost and the registration. The number of hours? goodness knows, but a LOT.
I think there are 3 in the country, I wonder if DVLA would tell me?
Anyway, thank you to everyone who has chipped in, helped and encouraged me with this French Fancy. :)
(https://s1.postimg.org/1vwksxyzkv/P1060411.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://s1.postimg.org/5xlbli0l4v/P1060413.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://s1.postimg.org/3of2g6iabz/P1060414.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://s1.postimg.org/4a1hgnflq7/P1060416.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://s1.postimg.org/1tf91qo5dr/P1060418.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
And as a reminder!
(https://s1.postimg.org/4hu84fkzgv/DSC_0025.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://s1.postimg.org/5smo33deq7/DSC_0007.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Lovely job! Now time to smoke out the neighborhood before you sell it?
Colin
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Ha! Been doing that for weeks....
Bloody 2 strokes, simple but so hard to get them right.
Up for sale now it is done, £2400 if anyone might see this.
This is the cost of the bike, the parts and the registration, but none of the 1,000,000 hours over the last 10 months!
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Nice job. The carb doesn't look too out of place either.
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Thanks, it was a shame not to get the original working, but I don't know why it would not; that will always be a mystery!
Maybe the next owner will crack it?
The carb is in the little tool box all wrapped up.
Saw a Bantam with a similar carb on it the other Sunday at a small vintage bike meet.
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Sadly, I'm back!
Advertised the bike but had no answers (so many people have never heard of a Terrot motorcycle in this country), but had a bite a few weeks ago.
Thought I should start it after the winter rest.
IT WILL NOT START.
After a lot of kick starting, nothing.
Have a lot of fat sparks, 2 x cylinder head gaskets to be sure of a seal, nothing.
Left it for a few days then moving the bike in the garage thought I would kick it over. Off it went first kick and ran for some time.
It stopped and then refused to re-start and so it is after a few more days, nothing at all.
I really do think this is a fuelling issue, so tried the original carb, nothing, another new China carb, nothing, and back to the one that has worked, nothing.
I am at a loss now as to what to do except sell it as a shop display for £100 as it is useless as it stands.
Have thought about getting it to Villiers Services to see what they can do, and thinking of asking the Bantam Boys if they have any '2 stroke' ideas.
Bit depressing. >:(
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Have you tried the good old standby of a squirt of juice in the cylinder or a warmed-up plug?
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From my experience with a James Comet, I would suspect the ignition (magneto) coil, iffy wiring (HT or LT) thereto or a weak generator. I'm assuming it hasn't got a battery & traditional coil.
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To be brutally frank, £2400 is 2k too much for a mundane 1950s french bike. Regardless of how much you spent on it or how well it was done.
The only way to make money on old french bikes is to fill up a van with them in France and knock them out at Kempton to folk who know no better.
Sorry if it offends, but that's it.
As for non starting two strokes I once took as a trade-in one of those horrid CZ things; the guy rode it to my shop,rode away on a very nice T90 and I am damned if I ever got that damn CZ to start ever again, it had spark fuel compression, in the end Idecided my time could be better spent and weighed it in.
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I'll give you £100 for it. ;)
As an after thought this sounds quite like the old Bantam problem of the crankcase filling with excess fuel; they used to have a drain plug in the case for just that reason. Sound to me, especially as its carb,in my opinion quite unsuited to the bike, could simply be flooding the crankcase thats why it starts again after standing for a couple days.
When it does start do you get a lot more smoke? that'd be the remaining oil burning.
No one ever got their money back from a bike restoration, whether a Manx or a moped, although plenty thought they would make a fortune.
That's why I gave up restoring bikes in 1984, just got fed up with speculators moaning they could not double their money.
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Hi Terrotmt1
Is the fuel "new" and not been sitting there for the last months?
John
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It is 2 weeks old, ron 97 Shell John with a flash of oil in it.
When it ran just before Xmas it was the same type of fuel, fresh, this time it is fresh again. It would run for minutes, rev etc when it did actually start.
The Chinese carb it last ran on (no change of jets etc as I have none to change to) was straight as it arrived.
It has a minimum bore of 19mm as the original does.
The Chinese carb has a modern construction and is beautifully made.
Before this carb I tried another Chinese carb designed for a 50 to 80cc 2 stroke, but the engine has never started on this carb.
Finally, the original AMAC carb is all clean, drillings clear yet the engine has never shown any hint of starting. The float level is set to give the fule just at the top of the jet where the tapered needle enters.
I would expect the engine to at least fire if not run on all of these carbs, esp the original.
There are videos on YouTube of these bikes starting first kick!
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Has it occurred to you that as all the fueling options have been exhausted that the fault may lie somewhere else?
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Well, the selling price was dropped to 2k..not sold yet!
I've done this bike and (more popular type) bikes for fun, though the fun factor is at a low level just now!
Flooded crank case theory is very very plusable.
Have spent hours today on the internet about AMAC 903 carbs and have 2 sectional drawings.
Both diagrams are poor definition, but I now suspect that a jet or orifice is missing.
Maybe.
There is a vertical tube in the carb body cross drilled and is the fuel controlling jet from the float bowl, just like an SU car carb.
At the upper end of the tube the tapered needle enters into the tube.
At the moment the entry. Hole is about 4mm dia, the needle is about 2.5mm dia.
I think from the diagrams there should be a jet sized to suit the carb and engine which the needle passes.
When the twist grip is closed, the needle is the same dia as the jet, starves the running engine to stop the engine.
So, After all this, maybe I'm missing a critical jet!
I will turn a slug of brass to fit the vertical tube with a hole the same as the needle dia in it and see if that is the reason for my predicament!
The magneto has been re magnetised, new condenser, no coil, no battery.
Have tried neat petrol in the carb, tried a heated plug, tried Easy Start, nothing.
Timing is 5mm btdc, points are 14 thou.
Tried swearing in English and French.
Can't let this French Flusie beat me.
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First things first, is the plug wet? If so, the best bet is another plug and try starting the engine with no choke and a handful of throttle.If the plug gets wet again then the crankcase is probably overcharged with petrol. If there is a drain plug then drain the crankcase, if no drain plug then kick it over fast a dozen or so times with the plug out, make sure the choke is off. I've found the only way to clean a wet two stroke plug is to sand blast it hence change the plug if it's wet. Once the engine has run and is clear of excess fuel, the wet plug (after heating it or blowing with an airline to clean it) can be used again.
If the plug isn't wet then try a T spoon of petrol directly down the plug hole, re-fit plug and kick with no choke and around 1/4 throttle, probably will take 3-4 kicks. Any engine will run without a carb. with a little petrol down the 'ole, for a couple of seconds.
If none of the above works then look to your ignition. If it's just getting a bit prissy having been left for a while, try bumping it in second gear. The faster the engine turns over the fatter the spark will be from a magneto, might be enough to kick it into life?
Colin
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In my youth I have started a carb-less Bantam with a hanfudl of petrol soaked rag held over the inlet; it was enough to get some encouraging bangs.
If you get beaten by a decent french floozie it costs a lot.
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You should be able to bypass the magneto. Temporary wire in a battery, coil & condenser through the existing points. It will eliminate one element at least. I'm assuming you renewed the crankcase seals during the rebuild.
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Thank you all for these helping words!
I will do as Colin says, and add:
The engine I rebuilt from the crank out last year. The two crank seals are woefully weak as a design.
The mag side is nothing more than a close fitting of the crank and the case fitted with a sleeve which had a light helix machines in the sleeve to retain the oil in the fuel to give a seal.
I have added an O ring to help re-enforce the seal.
On the clutch side there is nothing but a felt ring which I soaked in car engine oil.
Thus primary compression is weak.
The design of the kick start is weak too, a good thrust will turn the engine over about 3 revolutions so not much suction is built up through the carb.
The plug is most time wet after a good work-out on the kick starter. In the past I have removed the plug and cleaned off with carb cleaner and a good few minutes to air-dry.
I have tried neat fresh petrol down the plug hole with little benefit, certainly not combustion.
I do have a good long straight road outside in a quiet cul-de-sac so a bump start is possible, but if that works and a kick start fails, the bike is not right.
The stream of sparks seen when kicking over the engine, plug out, is impressive, fat and blue. It is there every time you kick it over. As I say, the magneto was re-magnetised by a specialist in 2 strokes, Villier Services late last year while I battled with this issue originally. There was no spark before they did this.
The lights work well when the engine ran last year. They are 'on' all the time, there are no switches on this budget £2000 bike!
Hope to have another go at the bike 'carb-free' tomorrow using petrol down the hole after purging the crank case as Colin says.
When it ran last week by surprise it was smokey, 2 strokes smoke (I'm an ex Lambretta man) but this was quite bad. I may have too much oil in the fuel? Throttle response was good mind.
Got to get this fixed asap. I have a Peugeot BIMA to do next, and someone on here has offered me £100! ;)
The plug gap is 20 thou, the plug is the original or at least very old.
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You should try a NEW plug, even if its not quite the correct grade, as a short term try.
I learned that one very early on in dealing with old bikes - a spark outside is no guarantee of anything when it comes to reliable starting. And your story sure reeks of that....
Have fun !
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excessive smoke points to my idea about fuel in sump?
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Just tried all the Colin tricks.
Vented the engine with 12 good kicks, no carb, stank of fuel, so wet sump theory sounds good.
Cleaned, dried the plug, tea spoon of fresh petrol down the plug hole.
Refit plug and 12 good kicks.
Nothing at all.
Put petrol-wet rag into the inlet port, kicks, nothing.
Fitted a new 2 stroke plug, petrol down the hole, nothing.
Bought some parts to have a go at the original carb, but also a second hand AMAL carb in good condition which another has used to get their Terrot going and it worked.
Total cost, £35.
Ordered the skip.
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Fitted a new 2 stroke plug, petrol down the hole, nothing.
If petrol down the plughole (how much, just a teaspoon full ?) with a new plug doesn't produce even a pop, then the problem is in the ignition or ignition timing.
Checked the timing, tried cleaning the points ?
btw, the fuel down the plughole should be 2 stroke fuel - ie with a dash of oil in it.
Or it washes the ring seal off the bore, and out of the main bearings...
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Agreed. Petrol down the plug 'ole eliminates carb, crankcase seals etc, so then it's down to plug, spark or timing.
(I can't believe you didn't try a new plug before though!)
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Plug is the original, nice condition, and delivers a fast stream of sparks...but so does the new one!
But it eliminates the plug.
Fuel is a 2 stroke mix, I squirted about 1/3 tea spoon down the plug hole each time I have tried.
The timing is set at 5mm btdc, as specified in the bike's handbook.
In the past I've tried 2, 3 and 4 mm, no difference.
I checked the timing again 2 days ago.
Points are 14 thou when the heel is on the cam section.
So, I will recheck the electrical side tomorrow.
Not sure just what I can really do different.
I expected some kind of a pop or burst of running, but dead.
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Either try my coil suggestion or get a new magneto coil. This could go on forever. It won't get fixed by you keep telling us what doesn't work.
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There are no spares to be found for this bike, even on eBay.France.
This must be the rarest of all Terrot bikes and one of the most unpopular models too.
I'll report back later when I've re checked the timing.
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Regardless of the make of bike in this thread the adverts that claim "rarest of the rare!!!" "only a few made !!!!!" "one of only three known survivors" before going on to price it at some astronomical price do give me a lot of enjoyment.
Its like that chum because it was a pile of poo when new and were lousy sellers.
One reason I enjoy reading ebay ads is for the amusement.
Terrot were renowned for some quite good in their day 4 strokes, up to 500cc; there were lots of two strokers around in France back then to chose from,possibly they went to makers with more of a reputation for their smokers? Or cheap, the french are famous tightwads.
From my own experiences with buying french bikes in france I can tell you that if it had any kind of desirability they would not have sold it to us Rosbifs; I have personal experience of being asked an inflated price for a bike because of that,they don't want to export their best stuff and they are well aware of the absurd prices being paid for bikes here.
My offer of £100 still stands ;) ;)
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I assume you have found this?
http://www.terrot.org/doc_notices/100ccMT1_125ccETD/100ccMT1_125ccETD.htm
and this?
http://terrot.dijon.free.fr/GrosPlan/100MTR.html
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Yes, the story of the whole restoration is on the Terrot.org site, and the French contributors had little to add to resolve my woes.
http://terrot.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19164
I bought this bike for a challenge, and so it has proven to have been an excellent choice!
The '74 Honda Sport I did before the MT1 was a lovely bike. cost a fortune to rebuild via David Silvers and sold in 2 days.
The Lambretta TV3 before the Honda cost a fortune too, and sold in 3 hours!
Those bikes have a huge spare part back-up even if expensive and poor quality in general.
However, the parts for a Terrot MT1 is another thing.
I did not buy this bike because it was rare and thus worth a fortune and I would make a massive fortune.
So, back to the tech side of this.
I have followed the suggestions and have reported that nothing has worked.
In Nov last year it ran several times for long periods with the large Chinese carb.
Last week after aborted tries, the bike ran in the 'November state' by chance the morning after a lot of attempts to start/flood it.
This supports:
Excess fuel had vaporised enough for the mixture ratio to be good enough for ignition.
It ran until the float chamber was empty, I had forgot to turn the fuel on..
This morning I have cleaned the Villiers carb I now have which is in very good condition. I will have to make an adaptor to fit it, but maybe it will work.
I have checked the timing @ 5mm btdc so the magneto flywheel is in the right timed place on the crank, thus the flywheel has not slipped on the taper on the crank.
The points are 14 thou gap with the heel on the 'cam' which is a raised land of steel welded onto the flywheel hub by the factory.
The condenser is good and with the plug (old or new) out of the engine the sparks are good when you spin the engine on the kick start.
This must prove the re-magnetised (Oct last year) mag is working.
Thus, I am typing this mid Friday morning not knowing what else to do.
If the timing was far out (ie should be 3mm) then surely the engine will splutter or show some sign of combustion?
The point gap can't be too far out/clean either as the spark is there.
Putting 1/2 a tea spoon of fuel into the combustion chamber is too rich, it ideally should be 14:1 iirc, but after 12 or more kicks that excess would be gone and a whiff of fuel left ready to ignite, but nothing.
Last point would be compression.
Engine has new rings and a tight head 'gasket' (copper ring) so compression is as high as can be but certainly not very noticeable on the kick start, but you can feel the difference with the plug out, so maybe this is as good as the compression gets.
I've run out of ideas, so going to replace the big Chinese carb and see what happens.
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You've kind of shot yourself in the foot here? If the crankcase is flooded you have an excess of petrol, therefore putting more petrol down the plug hole is putting you back to square one. If you plug is wet when you take it out then putting extra fuel into the equation is a non starter (pun intended!).
What you need to do is dry the engine out, hence the dozen kicks to blow the excess out of the plug hole. With the plug replaced you need to use no choke and a good twist of throttle to get extra air into the engine to offset the excess petrol. Putting a wet rag over the inlet is once again making things worse.
As already suggested any plug will work as a short term replacement just to get it started, I've even used long reach plugs in a short reach head half screwed in just to get it banging.
As already suggested using a battery coil will bypass 90% of the mag, the only parts still in use will be the points and condenser. Also a battery coil will give a much fatter spark at whatever speed the engine is turned over at.
If I was looking at this I would start by removing the points and have a look at the faces, anything less than perfect I would clean the faces with an oil stone, the wipe them with de-greaser. If the points faces are anything but a silver colour I would look at either oil contamination or a faulty condenser. You describe poor oil seals hence the possible oil contamination, I just put new bearings in one of my Bantams as the timing side main had play in it and was allowing oil to foul the points. Every ride I got about 10 miles before it started missing and I had to clean the points, this was more than just a wipe with a rag as the oil caused the points faces to burn.
If there's no oil there but the points faces are blue, purple or black (any slight discoloration) then the condenser has failed. Never assume that fitting a new condenser takes it out of the equation! I have a box of brand new in the packets condensers for various '70's - '80's cars and had to go through 6 before I found one that would hold a charge. They fail with age even still in their packages.
By using a battery coil with the points cleaned any ignition issues will be bypassed, as has already been suggested. Even if the condenser is shot the engine will still run until the points face gets burned, this is not the case using a magneto coil. Magnetos work differently and there needs to be a resonance between the coil and condenser during the spark to produce enough energy for a good bang.
A 6V or 12V coil wired independently from the bikes electrics (with clean points) will test the ignition for you. Use a suitable battery for the coil's voltage with the negative going to the engine as earth. The positive goes to one side of the coil and a wire from the other side of the coil goes to the points. For a short test it doesn't matter which way the positive and negative are wired to the coil.
So the points will have the coil wire and the condenser connected to them, now you will have a good spark to try with. I have played around with Bantams for years now and have found several magneto problems they suffer from, several of these faults will give a good spark but the engine won't start. Two of these are; the main shaft of the crank has turned slightly in the crank web (this is very common on Bantams) so now when the ignition is timed up the magnets in the magneto are not in the correct position to produce the maximum generation of electrickery to create a spark from the coil. Kicking the bike over with the plug out gives a false impression of a good spark as the engine is spinning so fast with the plug out that the mag can generate a spark at the plug. As soon as the engine has compression and turns over much slower there is no spark inside the engine. This can sometimes be compensated for by altering the points gap to get the timing nearer the correct magnet position at the time of firing. There's other methods with a Bantam but I won't go into detail here.
The second one is if the timing is too far advanced. An engine will, and indeed, wants to start with the timing retarded, still BTDC but more retarded than the best running position. Most small two strokes have fixed timing, ie. no manual or auto advance as the revs build up. This means the timing gets set in a compromise position.
Too far advanced and they just won't start, however if you manage to get it going on a bump start you will notice the engine has more pull and top end. Too far retarded (without getting silly about it) and it will start really easily but lack power, go a little further with retarding it and you could heat seize it as it will run hot when reving.
Flywheel magnetos can be fussy and everything wants to be "just right", some are fussier than others. They can be not quite "just right" and one day will seem to work fine and the next give nothing but trouble despite nothing being altered, bad starting is the main "show" of a not quite right magneto. Don't get me wrong I love magnetos, but I've had to spend a lot of time messing with them to learn their foibles! Battery coil ignition is a lot less fussy, I would be running it on my Bantams but the charging coils on a D1 don't produce enough electrickery to run a coil and the lights. I did fit later charging coils to one of them and this worked fine but I changed back to a magneto coil after several flat battery issues.
Remember if you have magneto trouble the engine will become flooded since fuel is going in but not getting burnt, so you now have a double issue to sort out. Remember this if you try a battery coil as it might not work straight away due to the flooding. At least if it runs on a battery coil you will know where to start looking for your problem, I have a small 6V one I keep purely for mag. testing.
If nothing else the length of this post might put you to sleep so you can wake up refreshed and ready to have another go?
Colin
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Thank you very much for taking so much time to help me.
I'm getting nowhere at the moment, now time to start again.
The engine is dead, and shows no life at all.
I can re set the magneto to 6mm btdc or maybe 8mm to see if something happens.
I don't have the parts to try all these things, you cannot get points for this engine anywhere and such like.
I'll pull the mag out and have it checked at Villier Services
Maybe I can use Lucas points to repair the French ones.
Final option is to sell as a non runner just to be rid of the frustration and move on.
Again, thank you for your help.
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final offer, £125.
Non starter no problem, I'll get it running. :o
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Constant fiddling with ignition timing is a waste of time. If it won't start on 6mm it won't start on 8 or whatever,
the french spec sheet says 5mm but I think you are barking up the wrong tree,also it might take days not over night for the excess fuel in the sump to evaporate.
I'll drill and tap crankcase for a small drain plug after I take delivery of it.
replacement points for magneto france on ebay.fr......253433399224
chambrier has three different sets on offer
macadam deux roues has two sets. and one complete volant magnetique NOS 90€
anyhow ,cash waiting
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even more here
ttps://www.pieceallumage.fr/equipement-france-morel-b1540.html
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Ah, been looking at that lot this afternoon.
The Mag is made by Magneto France, model 18/2S.
The CB sets on those sites are nothing like the set in the Mag, but the riveted point replacements look good as those will be the perished parts, so thank you for all info esp those parts.(NOW PURCHASED)
Here is a pic of the points on this bike:
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Bon chance is all I can say now.
After looking at some of the french pages I am wondering if, although there is a spark, and you think you have timed it correctly is there any chance the actual flywheel is not opposite handed?
I see the NOS one for sale is for a left hand rotation, and another page makes mention of the direction of rotation for these bikes as "gauche"; so it would seem there are RH versions?
do you know if this bike was run by previous owner at all? was the french owner glad to see the back of it?
don't ask me how to determine which is which.
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this magazine carries the only kind of workshop manual the french had at that time.
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Revue-Technique-Motocycliste-N-60-Annee-1953-Salon-de-bruxelles-essai-TWN/252673723698?hash=item3ad4870d32:g:lzgAAOSwzJ5XX7Xk
page 29 et seq covers MT1, they are quite good articles.
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The bike was rust free and very original, the engine I feel had been taken out and cleaned.
The box was oil dry, the rings stuck in their grooves with carbon and the head and piston crown had a good carbon coating, so not a complete job..
The flywheel was on almost impossibly tight to pull off so doubt it had been removed.
There were no renewed parts on the bike inc the tyres and tubes.
Even the headlamp bulb is original as much as I can tell.
Viewed from the flywheel side, the engine works counter clockwise, there is no marking for rotation, so I think it is the original mag etc inc the points and condenser.
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Magneto out and stripped the points down.
The lead from the coil was rimpy, so replaced that. So cold in the garage I had to pre heat the brass block which has the new lead soldered to it as the soldering iron quenched in seconds..
Cleaned the points to a good shiny surface and re assembled.
I can't get the gap to less than 30 thou now....
Going to leave it at that and see what happens.
Before putting it all back together will test the coils as much as I can.
There are a few video clips on YouTube to help me.
Need to scour the internet for resistance values etc.
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One thing to bear in mind as I mention in my previous post. Altering the points gap will both alter the timing and the timing of the magnets in relation to the stator fingers. You might be able to time the engine to BTDC correctly if you have enough timing adjustment, however beware of the magnets not being in the correct position when the points open to produce enough electrickery for a good spark.
One way of testing you have enough spark to run the engine is to leave a plug in the 'ole to have compression and another resting on the head with the HT lead to test the spark. Kicking over the engine with the compression has you turning the engine over at normal kick over speed which is much slower than kicking it over with no plug in the hole.
This magnet alignment has another issue which I learnt about the hard way. Since the crankshaft has moved on one of my Bantams I figured I'd be clever and take the key way out of the flywheel and alter the flywheel position to get the correct magnet position. To find the best magnet position I pushed the kick start by hand watching the spark, then altered the flywheel position a few degrees at a time until I found the position where I had the best spark at the lowest possible engine turning over speed.
Sure enough at normal the kick over speed I had a monster spark and the engine started really easily. However going down the road it was missing and popping as soon as the revs got up. It turns out there's a magnetic curve which alters the magnetic flux the faster the magneto's turning. This curve means that at higher revs the magnets effectively went out of alignment with the stator fingers loosing the ability to create a good spark.
I had to change the position of the flywheel a few degrees to get a reasonable spark for starting and still have one at higher revs. Many small two stroke engines run with no points and condenser, they use a small unit which senses when the magnetic flux is at maximum and cause the coil to spark. With most chainsaws etc. this unit is part of the coil, you can buy the separate units off eBay to use to replace the points and condensers on magnetos. Unfortunately they don't work with multi magnet magnetos, ie the type with charging coils, only magnetos which have the HT coil.
It's possible to use them with multi magnet magnetos but the points need to be retained for the HT spark, they will stop most of the burning of the points face though. One of these is marketed as the "Rooster Booster" and sold for Bantams (the bikes, not the chickens) but myself and others have had mixed results with them.
Anyway enough waffle, just a warning due to your larger points gap now.
Colin
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Food for thought!
I can get the factory spec of 0.4mm on the points by removing the eccentric adjusting screw and move things until I get th gap and tighten.
Thought about that doing the washing up!
The crank and flywheel have no keyway so you can set the flywheel timing absolutely anywhere.
There are timing Mark to b aligned when the engine is 5mm btdc.
I have wondered my the engine has no mechanical registration, and that in production the factory can't have spent ages getting everything aligned, they would need to slap them together pdq to keep costs down.
Thus this engine should be easy and quick to get in a running order?
The Terrot owners in France say turn the crank to tdc and then rotate back 5mm using a probe resting on the crown of the piston. It is very easy to do, but judging actual tdc is hit and miss so that 5mm could be +/_ 2 mm.....
Hope to get it all back together tomorrow and try again.
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You should get some signs of life even at 2mm + or -.
Can you not determine TDC by using the time -honoured "bolt down the plug hole and degree disc" method?
Google should bring it up...too late for one-fingered typing a missive at this time of night!
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The big and little end bearing could be better on this engine, the tdc is more a wide plateau than a precise point...
On my 62 Lambretta you could index the mag stator round to get exact timing which was by degrees rather than piston travel. Here the stator is in a fixed position which is why I guess the flywheel is not keyed to the crank.
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To post pictures on forums these days I do them through my own website, however my son does all my web site stuff for me and right now he's in Austria. So I'll try to describe a simple tool I made for timing engines from the piston.
I used a length of welding rod (wire coat hanger etc. would be fine) , one end I hammered and filed to resemble a small screw diver but with a working edge sharp like a wood chisel.
Around 3/4" from this chisel end I bent the wire with a sharp bend at a right angle so the flattened end is at a right angle to the wire. Basically an L with the chisel end being the shorter bit and around 8" on the long bit. Putting another piece of wire down the plug hole with the piston near enough at TDC I used this wire to measure from the top of the piston to around half way up the nearest cooling fin on the top of the head.
Using this measurement I marked the long side of the L from the right angle bend and bent the wire 180 deg. totally back on itself so the wire is now like a double barrel shot gun with the 180 deg. bend at one end and the chisel end sticking out at a right angle.
The idea is that the 180 deg. bend end sits on the piston crown, the chisel edge will be able to scratch a mark sideways on the cooling fin about half way up the fin. The excess long side of the wire is bent at a right angle well clear of the plug hole to act as a handle in use. Any excess can be cut off.
You now put the tool in the plug hole with the chisel end resting against the fin and rock the flywheel back and forth until the highest point is observed, there are always a few degrees of crank turning at which the piston doesn't appear to move. Now use the chisel end to make a small but clear scratch on the fin. Remove the tool and now measure whatever the timing height is (5mm - 6mm whatever) below the TDC mark and make another scratch.
On my Ariel the plug holes are angled outwards, on my Bantams they are angled backwards, but because you only have the thickness of the doubled wire, the plug holes have enough diameter for the tool to stand up vertically from the piston meaning any measurement is accurately the vertical piston movement.
I always time engines by starting before TDC and turn the crank the until I see the points start to open, the old fag paper trick works pretty well. A gentle pull on a small strip of fag paper clamped between the points face, as soon as the paper starts to pull out you know the points are just opening. I then put the tool down the plug hole and see if the chisel edge is in line with the timing mark, if not then make an adjustment and try again.
I time engines by turning the crank in the direction of travel rather than turning the engine backwards to the timing point so that any backlash in the timing gears, timing chain, advance-retard etc. is taken up in the same way it would be with the engine running. Not that this is an issue with your mag, just a handy way to learn to do it for when it does matter.
This tool takes less than 5 mins. to make, every one of my classic bikes has two small scratches on a cooling fin and their own piece of wire in their tool box. As we all know pattern parts vary in quality greatly, so whenever I fit a new (or cleaned) set of points, as well as gaping the points I whip the plug out and check the timing as well. A slight difference in several parts of the points will alter the timing.
Remember though, this times up the firing, it does not time the magnets to create the spark!
Colin
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Thank you as ever Colin.
The plug is vertical on this engine, makes things easier.
I use the end of an artists paint brush, about 100mm long. Any longer and the upper end hits the underside of the tank.
It is about 6mm dia and I have 2mm marks along its length.
Poke the length into the combustion chamber and turn the crank until tdc is 'found' best as I can and note the graduation against the land the plug seals to.
Back off the crank by 5mm by using the graduations.
Repeat a million times to average things out!
Place the mag cover on the crank taper so care fully and align the marks, then lightly tap it on and then nip the nut up.
Re check again.
Tighten the nut.
Rotate the mag housing so you can see the points through the small window and that the heel is on the raised cam area.
Set the points to 0.4mm gap which I could only just reach before polishing the points, now best I can get is 0.5mm, hence remove the adjuster screw today which will give me total adjustment from zero to 1mm.
Is there anything wrong with this method?
I had thought to loosely put the flywheel in place, nut just finger tight and rotate to get to the points and adjust.
Then go through the 5mm btdc routine.
Re check again.
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Usually if the timing is near enough (within reason) things will run, as I said before, too far advanced can be an issue for starting. With small two strokes "fine tuning" the timing will make a difference on the road, I have a short test run route involving uphill and downhill in varying degrees. With the Bantams I rode them over this run altering the timing a little at a time until I had the best all round performance. OTT? At 6 ft. 2
and 15 stone every fraction of a horse power gained makes a difference on a 125 Bantam! Remember the fuel we're now burning is somewhat different from what was available in the '50s so it makes sense that the original settings for the engine could be slightly different than required now.
Yours will start if the timing is near enough so don't get overly concerned, finding the fault is the issue for you. Without actually seeing it in the flesh it's really hard to advise, someone with experience with older two strokes might well figure it out pretty quickly........ Then again maybe not??
If you're somewhere near Essex I could have a look for you but I have limited mobility right now with my broken knee, managing to do a little in the workshop even on crutches though.
Colin
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Thank you for your offer, but I'm up in the West Midlands.
Put it all back together, set the points as close as I could to 0.4mm, set the flywheel to 5mm btdc.
Big Chinese carb on, started straight way first kick, just like those bikes on You tube in France.
Removed the carb and fitted the original. Nothing, not a pop or a bang.
Refitted the big carb and inadvertently miss assembled the throttle piston so it was wide open. Kicked it a few times and it started and revvvvvvved it's whatsits off.
Got hot and a lot of the smoke disappeared from the exhaust.
Killed the engine by opening the choke which killed it.
It revved and ran really well for about a minute, seemed an hour.
Let it cool a bit and now refuses to start at all, absolutely nothing.
Decided to tidy the garage up and now focus on my real hobby, hillclimbing my Lola-Porsche race car. First race is on 31 March.
My race car engine is complex, full of adjustment yet I can do everything to it and it works.
This bloody French 2 stroke is beyond me. >:(
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I blame Brexit and Macroneroon.
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Don't let it beat ya! Thinking logically................. You sorted out the points, re-timed it and it started right away?? Two things occur to me, 1 is the amount of fuel in the crankcase had evaporated to a point where it was ready to run? However my inclination would be to look at the points again. It was running, then running hard so........ Perhaps the points, timing have moved? or if there's a problem with the condenser it wouldn't take long for the points face to get burnt putting you straight back to square one as soon as the engine ran for a short while.
As a point of interest which might or might not have any bearing. The wico pacy mag. on the D1 Bantams originally had a physically large condenser which you just can't buy anymore, the current ones for sale are about half the original size although they're rated the same. I kill condensers on one of my Bantams.
My electrical knowledge is limited to say the least but I've formed a theory and a bit of trial and error seems to confirm this. When I first bought my GPO Bantam and got it running I came to the conclusion that it was dangerous to be on the road, at least with 6,2" and 15 stone of me on it. The performance was so slow, especially on any sort of incline, that I had a line of cars behind me all itching to get past. But I loved the look of the bike so decided to do some tuning on it to get a bit more "get up and go"
Happy days! It's now capable of not being a hazard on the road and I've been using it for 6 years or so, even commuting to work on it some days. But............ The tuning means it revs much more freely and basically when I ride it there are only two throttle positions, on or off.
My theory with killing condensers is since I'm almost constantly revving the nuts off it the HT coil is over generating and killing the condenser, remember the ones available are only half the size of the originals. I'm thinking they're kind of like a battery, think of an AA battery and a D battery. Both 1.5 volts but one with a much larger capacity, a re-chargeable D battery would stand a much higher input charge than the AA battery.
A condenser is just two sheets of aluminium foil rolled around each other with an insulating sheet in between them, double the size of the condenser means double the size of the sheets of alli. therefore more able to absorb a higher current flow from the magneto. To test this theory I tried all kinds of different capacitors of the same value but ultimately they all failed. Then I tried two condensers and hey presto it's been fine ever since!
I have a friend locally who's getting a bit old and doddery, he also has a D1 GPO Bantam which is more an ornament than a rider. Last year we took this and his B 175 down for MOT's booked one after the other. I had fitted a new condenser and points in the D! about a week before and apart from a quick blast up the road the MOT was the first run since fitting them.
He rides very slowly and cautiously and stalled it at a busy roundabout and couldn't get it started. We swapped bikes and I got the D1 going first good kick, then thrashed it the last 4 miles to the MOT shop. I mean thrashed it! Since he was on the 175 he could keep up.
About a mile from the shop it started missing and popping, we made it and got the MOT's but I had to take the points out and file them to get it home, about a mile from home it started missing and popping again.
Basically the new points and condenser lasted about 5 miles. Did he stall it because the condenser was failing after a couple of miles? For me it started straight away and rode off fine for a few miles, or did my thrashing it cause the condenser to fail?
Condensers are far more important for magneto's than battery coil ignition systems. Battery systems have the power from the battery to create a spark so the condenser is more to stop a fat spark at the points from burning the faces. Magneto's generate only a small amount of power to create a spark, there's a resonance between the coil and condenser which supplies a little more power to the coil to produce a better spark. So with a magneto the condenser is performing 2 tasks one as a spark booster and the other to stop the points face from burning.
You had starting problems, changed the points face for nice new ones and the engine ran straight away. It revved it's nuts off and now it won't start, maybe I'm biased with the problems I've had with Bantam magnetos, specifically condensers, but........... Taking the points out again and examining the faces might give you a clue, there shouldn't be much going on with the points faces with only such a short running time. If there is anything then suspect the condenser.
Unfortunately your swapping around with carbs. is further complicating things as none of them are really a known quantity, although you seem to have one which is basically working. However I can't help but think your starting issues are more ignition based.
Sorry for once again writing a novel, I have too much time sitting around right now with the knee!
Colin
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But modern capacitors ("condensors") will be much more efficient than the ones from the 1950s and items which have been hanging around for possibly years in a shop. They degrade whether used or not. Was the plug still sparking after the engine ran and then stopped?
Points burn with a failing capacitor but the engine should run for longer than a couple of minutes even if the capacitor wasn't fitted.
Without physically checking over this bike it's hard to see what the problem might be, but as the ignition set-up has been tested tried and tried again I would think the fault would be on the fuel side.
Simple basic transport like this doesn't need in-depth and precise settings to run in some shape or form, though I reckon the carb-swapping isn't helping.
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Thank you both for trying to sort this thing out for me.
I'm not one to give up, but having a day off from the Thing.
I have a nice new 6V condenser, much smaller in length and a little different in diameter, so will pop the flywheel off and fit it though it is 'waist' mounted and I need a 'base' mount so as ever, so messing about first..
To explain the 3 carbs:
The original AMAC. 903-165 has been cleaned and cleaned again and again with all the holes and drillings open. Some French Mechanic had adjusted the piston by filing it oval so it looked barrel shaped. I have machined a new brass sleeve to restore it back to a cylinder and it slide nicely. The needle mounting to the piston is a bit micky mouse due to the same butchery to the needle...
I would have hoped the bike would start with it. The float gives fuel exactly to the top of the main jet tube where the needle enters the tube. All a bit like a car SU carb.
That engine never ran or popped with that carb. That was October last year.
I bought off ebay a little carb for small 2 stroke bicycle conversion engine, 50 to 80cc 'range', beautifully made for £8. That one never worked either.
Decided to get a larger Chinese carb which has a 19mm dia choke size, the original is 16.5mm. This is the only carb that has had the engine running. I have no idea of the size of the jets etc but it is sold for 100/125cc engines. It has a modern choke, again very nicely made.
The other day after it started on the big carb, I tried the original just to see if it would work, but nothing.
Just tried the bike/big carb again this morning, nothing.
I have noticed on kick starting the bike initially, you can feel a distinct compression, then after several kicks the compression seems to change, it goes 'softer' and each turn over is far less distinct.
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I have just read through part of this fascinating saga......
Surely the key is in post 107 when you say it started and ran well on the Chinese carb. This to me proves that the carb is where your problem lies.....
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I wish it was a 'fascinating sage' to me! A really frustrating PITA for me.
Just come in from a battle with a German leaf blower machine. Cannot believe the terrible design and production engineering, Really Not Very Good.
So, in a bit of a mood and have left the back until later...
I asked Villiers Services about the original carb.
Their suggestion was to replace it with a Villiers carb!
However:
Every now and then the bike starts, only with the Big Chinese carb, and after I stop it (just close the throttle twist grip) it will not re-start, ever, in the same day, even the same week.
When it is running, it is rich, and I feel the jets are simply too big. The drillings in the original carb are very small.
When it is running the engine responds well to the twist grip (for a 2 stroke and in comparison to my Lambretta) and as I found out when the throttle was wide open will rev like a Formula 1 car.
So, if the thing will not start or even show a glimmer of a bang I presume the mixture is way off 14:1.
When it is just right it starts (lottery) and runs well though a bit smoky (maybe too much oil in the petrol) but far more smoky than my Lambretta was.
Thus the condenser, the plug, the points, the timing must be right for combustion and throttling to be sustained for several minutes?
If the basic components were suspect or intermittent then it would not run?
It has never immediately re-started after a period of running. It can be days before it starts, which leads to the idea the crank case get flooded with petrol
So, I bought a used Villiers carb, and it is in great condition. It is a V648C mono block
I've cleaned it and poked some of the holes and now need to turn an adaptor to fit it to the engine stub inlet pipe. It weighs a ton and will just squeeze into the space by the engine.
The throttle cable arrangement is very different but I can cobble something together to test it on the bike.
This is the engine with the big Chinese carb. The Enfield filter is a poor attempt to 'hide' the carb.
(https://s14.postimg.org/mshpzjqgh/P1060414.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
And the engine with the Original carb
(https://s14.postimg.org/jzoifefsh/P1060022.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
And off Google, the Villiers carb:
https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/112438475682_/villiers-carburettor-v648c.jpg
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Can't you knock up an adaptor and temporarily fit the carb off the Lambretta? Looks lie you've got the space there.
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The Lambretta was sold a few years ago and had a Dellorto about the right size and I still have a rough one to try for space.
The 'bretta carb is unusual in design, and I dismissed it last year due to the throttle and choke systems, but they are easy to get so a viable idea.
Any comments on trying the Villiers carb?
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It was more about fitting a known working carb than a comment on Villiers carbs in general.
There's millions of Jimmys and Fanny-B's that worked fine with them!
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I'll rig-up the Villiers as the Dellorto I have is a bit knackerd!
It might even fix the problem, but I see you can get different jets for them (etc) which could work out well if it works.
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Turned up an adaptor to fit the Villiers carb on but without any throttle cable for now.
With the piston about 2mm up from closed, and a million hard kick starts nothing happened.
With 4 carbs on the bench I doubt this issue is a fuel one.
Next up is to fit the new condenser, and check the points again, re-gap if required, re set the flywheel to the crank yet again.
If this fails then I am at a loss what to do next except seek professional vintage 2 stroke specialist help and spend more money, good after bad I fear.
I have yet to find anyone in the UK who will/can test and fix one of these magnetos.
Anyone know of a 'good man' for engines such as this?
I might ask Villiers Services if they will spend a few hours on it. They rebuild engines etc but I think they only do Villiers.
This is mad.
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Hi
re set the flywheel to the crank yet again.
Maybe I am misunderstanding the above?
The flywheel position needs to be set with regard to the piston position
I would aim for less advance than you have been setting at 2-3mm points just opening
Points gap is not critical but the position of the magnets on the poles of the ignition coil when the points just open
is, (as already mentioned)
You can experiment with various settings and set up a spark gap from plug lead to frame/engine to see where the strongest spark occurs
a million hard kick starts nothing happened.
I have started reluctant engines by using an electric drill with a socket adaptor that fits the flywheel nut
(provided it doesn't undo the nut ::))
John
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Thank you John, you have made me doubt my approach to timing this bike now.
From what the French have told me:
Determine tdc using a rod placed down the plug hole. The plug is vertical so the rod will rest on the crown of the piston.
Rotate the crank until the rod enters the cylinder, following the piston by 5mm, thus the piston is now 5mm before tdc.
Place the flywheel onto the keyless tapered shaft of the crank and align the mark on the mag(statick part) to the line on the flywheel.
Tighten the nut (which is rhd thread)
Turn the flywheel so the cam area is under the heal of the points assembly and set the gap to 0.4mm
I have consistently followed this procedure, about the only common denominator in this whole saga!
I have tried the drill electric starter and got me nowhere!!
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You do not mention turning the engine BACKWARDS to find TDC?
really you should bring the piston up to the 5mm mark.
Ignore me if thats what you have done :)
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To explain myself better:
My rod has 1mm marks on it.
I turn the engine to reach tdc judged by feel and watching the 'mm' move until they stop = tdc. Note the mm mark that = tdc. Note 5mm from that 'tdc' mark.
Rotate the crank back until about 10 'mm' marks have moved, return the crank towards tdc and the '5mm' mark.
I think this will give "5mm btdc" as stated in the terrot 'manual-handbook' I've downloaded.
Most modern 2 strokes use 2mm btdc. Ive tried that and nothing happens.
The few times this engine has in fact ran has been with '5mm btdc'
In said handbook and other references, there is no mention of a timing routine different to the one I've given.
I assume the 5mm btdc has the magnets in the correct position to each other?
The hub of the flywheel has a steel strip welded to it that covers approx. 100Deg of the 360 of the hub. The points abruptly climb onto this ramp, the points are then open 0.4mm for this 100 degrees (approx.) before coming off the 'cam' and presumably the points close, the energy stored in the coil is discharged to the plug lead, plug, and it creates a nice explosion....if only. >:(
writing this now makes me realise that I have not checked the points are actually closed off-cam! However, when testing the sparks on the plug, plug out of the engine to ground there is a stream of sparks in-line with the 8 or so cycles of the engine/kick start.
Every time I have checked for a spark this way there has been a stream of them.
While the points heel is on the flywheel hub, not the raised section I call the cam the points should be touching with some force given by the spring in the points mechanism.
The heel rises up the ramp to the plateau of the cam in about 3 to 5 degrees of rotation. so the points then have opened and gapped to 0.4mm.
The heel then rides the cam for about 100 deg before coming down the cam ramp so closing the points and the spark is released from the coil.
In all this curfuffle I can't see why the spark does not arrive at the right place, right time or close enough to give a running engine more than once in a blue moon!
Talk about going round in circles.
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I always understood the spark to fire when the points opened, collapasing the field of the coil so causing it to discharge. If your coil fires when the points close again then the timing will be out by the 100 degrees you describe.
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Ok, but if the flywheel is in the right place to the crank ( the piston is 5mm btdc, the magneto marks aligned) then the points will open and close at the right time and the spark arrives at the plug on or just after tdc and explodes on the down stroke.
As long as I set the points gap with the heel on the cam plateau the points will open and close at the right point in the cycle.
In all this mess, the engine has on occasions run, and a few times run well and predictably.
It has never restarted straight after stopping.
If something was broken (electrically) then it would never run?
I have found a company in France with new points, a new heel, and even an exchange rebuild coil for the Magneto.
About £100 delivered.
I will order the points and heel first, and see if they will tell me how to test the resistance of the coil.
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Daily up-date!
Breaking news is that I removed the mag from the engine and made some detailed adjustments to the points, ie swiss filed a few parts to get more 'throw' which allowed me to move to the next tweek.
I found a large alum bar that fitted exactly the central bore in the mag back plate. This then allows the points to be gapped 'off the engine' which I expect is how the mag was sent to Terrot on the production lines. The bar's radius is the same as the flywheel's hub and cam radius!
I managed to get a nice feeler gauge fit to 0.4mm +/- a knats whotsit and also determined this is a 'right hand' version of the mag.
Put it all back in but set the btdc @ 2mm not 5mm.
With the Villiers carb on and the piston in it set (stuck!) at 2mm from fully closed (no throttle cable yet fitted), turned the fuel on, and not waiting for the bowl to fill, I kicked the thing 4 times, nothing.
On the fifth there was a 'peep', on the 6th there was a 'PEEP' and the 7th it fired and ticked over like my Porsche! At that moment it sounded as good as the 3.2 litre flat 6!!
It sat there running I guess at 500rpm and sounded great and very different in a good way. (no smoke!)
After a minute of this excitement and the tick oh so consistent I couldn't stop it, so simply covered the mouth of the carb and it died after about 3 seconds.
I ventured to fit a throttle cable which did not work...
Awkwardly, it was time for lunch! So play stopped for the day. >:(
Will try to move further tomorrow.
I will now order I hope a set of points and a new heel from 'Pieceallumage' in France who's site shows they have these NOS.
Is this 3 steps forward or just a false dawn?
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Good work.
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Sounding promising!
Colin
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Excellent.
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He gets the perseverance prize though for sure. ;D
And a rosette from me for not being thin skinned. ;D ;D ;D
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False dawn as I thought...
Got a 'throttle' connection to the carb so tick over to wide open.
Fuel on etc and after about 10 kicks it started and responded to the twist grip.
Enthused, closed the throttle shut and the engine died. There is no switch on this bike, and the original carb kills the engine when the twist is fully closed, maybe this Villiers works the same?
Anyhow, gave it a minute to cool a bit and it refuse's to start, not a peep.
One thing is very notice able is that with all this multiple kicking the engine can feel very 'de-compressed' seeming to have zero compression some kicks.
Leave it a bit and the next kick you can feel compression.
Checked the points, and they were at 0.6mm so closed them to 0.4mm.
Tried to re-start and still nothing.
What a joke this all is. Hard to keep the mojo at this point and the roaming scrap man appeared just when I hit the low point. Oh so tempting, just get rid of the bloody thing and move on.
Will feel better tomorrow, so might have another go but I can't see what else to do.
French Tat indeed! :'(
It would make a nice shop display mind, maybe that is the right place for it or give it to the National Motorcycle Museum.(if they would want it)
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If I remember correctly these ancient two strokes were not meant to tick over, might be wrong.
For oiling reasons I think, has your plug oiled?
When I were a lad and just started I was told two strokes go best flat out and worn out, or buggered as the bloke said.
Your rosette is canceled :'(
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Do I get 2 if I crack it? ;)
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nope.
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Mean! :P
;D
I have noticed when positioning the flywheel to the crank that the marks align when there is a strong magnetic 'positioning'.
The marks nearly align themselves.
Is this normal?
Also, when trying to start the bike with the filter off the Villiers carb neat fuel is spat out to the floor, not a lot, but you can see it in the sun.
This situation broke my sleep last night, but no light bulb came on so other than repeat all I've done before, again, I cannot see what else there is to do.
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Not unusual for a piston port two stroke to spit a little fuel back through the carb. as the name suggests the piston acts as the valves and doesn't do a perfect job. Rotary or reed valves are more efficient and tend to prevent this.
Many small engine two stroke carbs don't have a pilot circuit on the carbs, tick over was maintained by holding the throttle open a little. Killing the engine was by shutting the throttle off. If your carb doesn't have a throttle stop screw (a screw, usually with a spring on it, going up at an angle to hold the throttle slide up) then it's not meant to tick over. D 1 Bantam carbs are like this, I've drilled and tapped one of mine so it now has a throttle stop screw.
If your timing mark on the flywheel is near the firing point you will get a magnetic "surge" when playing with the flywheel. Don't think of a magneto generating a constant charge for the ignition circuit, it generates a momentary pulse of energy at the correct time for the coil to spark. This is when you will feel the magnetic pull on the flywheel. This is why I've mentioned the magnet's position being important, there is a very narrow segment of rotation where this pulse is generated strongly and it must coincide with the points starting to open.
Pity you're not local (well to me) as I feel sure there's nothing too drastic wrong wrong, but small magneto two strokes can be very fussy and some experience with them goes a long way.
Colin
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Why don't you just rig up a battery and coil through the points and eliminate 50% of your suspects?
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I can't see a way (if I had them) to rig a coil etc as I have nothing 6V and there are no holes to get wires though and electrically sound, though admitted, this is hardly an expensive bike..
Just come in from the garage this afternoon.
Tried the original carb again, nothing happening.
Went back to the big Chinese carb, much the same though I thought it might start a few times, and I spelt some carbon monoxide once.
Decided to try different flywheel positions, 8mm btdc, 5mm btdc, tdc, 2mm Atdc.
Of all these 8mm seemed to sound like something might suddenly happen, but no.
I have no idea what to do next, utterly sick of the thing.
I stood staring at it and pondered if there is something really fundamentally wrong here but know so little about magnetos etc (as you can tell). Because the whole thing is so simple there must be a glaring fault.
Maybe there is not enough compression.?
Anyone know of a classic bike restorer in the West Midlands?
I only know of Villiers Services. I think I'll ask if they can look at it. They offer an engine restoration service but I think this is for Villiers only.
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The clue is in the name Villiers, I doubt they'll want to know.
A classic restorer? no one worthy of the name will touch it, short of letting them have access to your bank account. I speak as one who used to be. After all, bluntly speaking, you want it sorted not restored, and its not a classic,not by any means.
"my mate has serviced it and it won't go can you fix it" I still have nightmares about such phrases.
I only ever worked on old British bikes, yet the number of times I'd get some fool with a broken FS1E or similar shit come in and then get the hump when I refused; one idiot even brought his Dad round, the big sign on the door said "Vintage British motorcycles only catered for." yet still they came..... >:(
you need a 6v battery and coil, wire it through the existing points.
After following your saga I am doubting if either of the items you chop and change really are the problem. No amount of fidgeting with ignition timing will sort it.
Now you know why old gits like me get so ratty when old french bikes :'( come on here.
You could always fit a generic chinese engine or even a Villiers?
Have you set the tappets?
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I'm sure there MUST be some tappets in there somewhere!
Gave me a smile that one.
I'll ask V Services, but suspect you are right.
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As a last resort you could post a for sale ad with a nice picture of it, and put that immortal phrase in...."fully restored and now just needs timing doing to finish".
Jury-rigging coil and battery has to be a good way to go, and it doesn't have to be 6V.
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What about poor primary compression?
The seals are very weak on this engine by design.
I'm thinking of stripping it all down again and fitting sealed crank bearings maybe removing the inner bearing seal?
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A drop of petrol down the plug hole eliminates the oil seals from the equation, at least as far as staring is concerned. The seals are only relevant to getting the petrol from the carb to the combustion chamber, put petrol in the combustion chamber and it should go bang. Only two other components are needed for the bang, compression and a spark at the correct time.
Compression on your engine is down to two things, piston and rings being good or the head gasket. Usually you will hear a head gasket, or since you've had it running see some external sign on a leak. Older small two strokes often appear to have very little sign of compression compared to a 4 stroke. One thing which will alter the compression felt is having the carb totally closed, this restricts the air entering the engine therefore how much gets gathered on top of the piston to get compressed.
Going the battery coil route is always a good test route, only one wire needs to be led into the magneto to the points. Battery pos. goes to the coil, battery neg goes to earth on the engine and the other low tension wire from the coil goes to the points and condenser. Since this doesn't involve the bikes electrics in any way either a 6 or 12 volt coil can be used, just use the relevant battery for the coil.
Timing can be checked simply by turning the engine over from the flywheel with the coil in circuit and the plug will spark when the points start to open. If not you have a points / condenser issue. Perfect way to test how you've timed the engine as you'll get a spark you can see as you check the piston height BTDC.
You must be able to get either a cheap coil (older car or bike) from a breakers or cheap off eBay. To test an old battery coil simply put a plug lead into it and a plug, earth the plug to the neg. of a battery and take a pos. and neg. wire from the battery to the low tension side of the coil. Fix one wire and touch the other to the terminal on and off, every time you take it off the spark plug will spark.
This is all you're doing with it on the bike except the condenser will stop the points from getting burnt by reducing the current across the points face.
If you intend to have another project bike in the future having a test coil sitting on the shelf ain't such a bad idea?
Colin
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What about poor primary compression?
The seals are very weak on this engine by design.
I'm thinking of stripping it all down again and fitting sealed crank bearings maybe removing the inner bearing seal?
But this has been the design of it since it was built, and clearly it has/does run.
I would suggest that you have a failing and degraded flywheel mag probably through age, and while it's possible for the plug to give a spark outside the cylinder it's a lot more difficult under compression.
The carb swapping doesn't help, and the continual tickling and choking probably means you get one chance to kick her into life before excess mixture makes the plug even less able to work properly. When it does run the spark will be stronger as the engine is rotating much faster and a rich mixture won't be so problematic, but then the mag is warming up leading to more problems with weak coils, failing capacitors and poor magnetism with the heat.
I still recommend an external coil and battery.
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Thank you both so very much, just the info I need.
I have 12v battery and good coils, just not 6 volt, so I can do as you suggest, hopefully today.
I don't want to strip this engine again, making paper gaskets etc is a chore.
The magneto was re magnetised by V Services on their rig, I had no spark at all before that.
Right, that will be the next step to bringing this bike to heel!
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One thing I forgot to mention in the last post was have you filled the crankcase with petrol again? Remember that every time you kick it over petrol is drawn in, if it doesn't fire then it's still kicking around in the engine and exhaust. A wet plug is the symptom of this so a new plug after much kicking over with the plug out will help.
The advantage of a battery coil is a much fatter spark which will help. The one good thing with a 100cc two stroke is it's a lot easier on the leg than say a 600 single in a non start situation!
Colin
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Primary petrol fill;
Yes, I think I have.
During all this kicking I end up trying combinations of choke on, throttle closed, to choke off, throttle wide open.
Some tome ago I tried petrol down the plug hole, not a peep which make you think about the magneto coil.
Last time I put petrol in the plug hole I kicked it to death so somewhere in that lot the mixture must have been 'right' for some kind of combustion.
I did have a leaking head gasket. When the engine ran at a million rpm the oil leaked out under the head to the top fin.
I found an (incorrect) ring in France and fitted that but ended up having two copper rings and the head is tight.
Not ideal. The design is for head-to-cylinder contact with a gasket trapped in a groove. The original gasket was in the engine and is 'C' shaped in section with a fibre in-fill into the C cavity that obviously crushes down when new. The replacement was just a solid copper ring of too small a dia to fill the groove. Cost 30 euros too....
The new contact breaker points arrived today. These are replacement pads to be riveted onto the points. Ordered them ages ago, but will replace the pads, sort the Battery/coil and test.
They are 2 x the thickness of the point pads in the bike.
This will restore the range of adjustment available to get the 0.4mm gap required.
Feeling better today, want that rosette so cruelly deigned me! ;D
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I decided to replace the point contacts before I started which was a bit of a fiddle but all together in the end and I was able to get the 0.4mm gap with the point's heel on the cam.
I rigged-up the 12v battery, coil etc as explained above.
When I made the last connection, earthed the battery to ground on the bike, there was a current flowing. I did not expect that, however:
With the wires all connected (I bought the points/condenser lead out of the lights hole, quite convenient) and the plug sitting on a head bolt I turned the flywheel slowly by hand.
The spark flew exactly on my 5mm btdc ( :) ). I triple checked it, and it was repeatable. I used a heavy gauge wire for the HT lead, doubt that makes much difference for this test.
Put the plug back in, original HT lead back on, and with the throttle wide open got kicking.
After 6 kicks I closed the choke and 3 kicks later it fired and ran. (this is with the large Chinese carb).
Bit smokey; I think I do have too much oil in the fuel so will dilute it tomorrow, but responded to throttle well.
After 10 secs I removed the choke, same smoke level.
The down pipe is still a bit leaky and the residue getting out whilst running is oily where the pipe is clamped to the cylinder head. got to be far too much 2 stroke oil?
After a minute of blipping the throttle I closed it and the engine died after 3 secs, a good stop.
It will not re-start, BUT it tried a few time to re-start.
Time for Tea, so packed it all away, but progress!
Should I try to start the bike with the battery and coil rigged up?
No harm should occur?
I feel that Rosette getting closer. ;D
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Be interesting to see how tomorrow goes, from your post I'm assuming you fired it on the magneto? If so it seems a little playing with the mag gets it going for a spell. Be interesting to try it on the battery coil, if you haven't done so?
All old two strokes will smoke like mad when started on choke and will take up to a 1/4 of a mile thrash up the road to clear themselves out. We were going to a show once and I made the mistake of following three Bantams from my house, being a sociable fella I made everyone a cuppa before we set off so the engines were cold needing choke to start. I couldn't even see the road for two stroke smoke following them, didn't do my lungs much good either!
My research on my 1926 M/Debon is to run it on a 10 / 1 mix, I had an old Sea Gull outboard years ago and that also ran on a 10 / 1 mix. The reason for this amount of oil is a lack of oil seals, the thicker "brew" helps the plain bearings to seal. Might be a reason yours is supposed to be running oily?
Colin
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I suspect I have too much in the tank. The fuel is a pale green!
I'll dilute it tomorrow and see. Within a reasonable amount, can you have too much oil such that the fuel is hard to start?
When it started last week and screamed it's head off for ages the smoke did disappear after a minute of those revs, so this could all add up.
Will try the start tomorrow off the battery/coil.
The spark I had when looking at the timing seemed as intense as the magneto with plug out.
The running this afternoon was on the bike's magneto.
Fingers crossed for tomorrow pm. :)
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Spent some more time with my follie francaise today.
Rigged up a small reservoir to by pass the tank as I had some fresh petrol and a precise 3% oil in it.
Tried to start it with the battery/coil set up. Nothing. 20+ kicks, nothing.
Removed that lot and tried the magneto. during the 20+ kicks I had a few peeps and then it started and ran. Revved well but sounded 'heavy', you could see and feel every cycle at low revs, smokey exhaust like a bad 2 stroke of old.
Starting technique is wide open throttle, a few kicks on choke, off the choke and pray/ swear each kick.
20 kicks is about my threshold of energy and enthusiasm, it was 30.
So, where are we?
Timing is smack-on.
Fat spark with Batt/coil test
No start with Batt/coil
fuel is fresh and mix correct, big Chinese carb.
I have been given the contact details of a proven 2 stroke specialist who is willing to chat it through with me. Next step for Tuesday as he is racing this weekend.
Time to play with the mighty race car this weekend for me, so will leave it alone until Sunday.
April 1st! Who knows what might happen. :o
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#1 it is "a bad 2 stoke of old"
#2 it is a 60 year old french workmans machine, it will never run like a sophisticated modern two stroke.
#3 why not fit a reed valve to the inlet?
####3 ;D ;D ;D ;D
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If its any help this guy can't get his engine to start either.
https://youtu.be/vJoMs1xOUpg
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Hi Terrot and All
Just a further thought?
When started you say that there's lots of smoke even with the new fuel ?
Try removing the silencer as it may be blocked up , ?
Some years ago I was given a 2 stroke genny that would not start, exhaust 99% blocked so the engine could not suck in any fuel/air
John
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Thanks for the thought John, the silencer is a new one from V Services for a 2 stroke!
I think this is back to poor primary compression, poor crank seals etc.
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Starting technique is wide open throttle, a few kicks on choke,
That's likely why it sounds "heavy" (four-stroking?).
Not many vehicles start WFO and to do that with the choke closed is bound to over-richen the mixture.
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Take your point, but it sounds the same after minutes after choke closed off, i.e no choke effect.
The 2 times it has run on the Villiers carb, it sounds better, same starting difficulty though.
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I don't know how old you are but. In the old days every vehicle needed a particular starting technique, some liked half choke, some a couple of pumps on the throttle etc. Many old bikes are like this, my experience with the Bantams is they need to be flooded, well and truly flooded with the tickler, choke and a touch of throttle.
You mention using full throttle to start, this is only of any use if the engine is flooded as it lets the maximum amount of air in at kick over. Normally the bare minimum of throttle is used for starting from cold as this acts as a choke in itself since the air passage is mostly blocked.
A little throttle, maybe 1/8 of a turn of the twist grip will give higher than tick over revs. as an encouragement for the engine to start but not a great gulp of air that you'd get from a wide open throttle. As I said, full throttle is the way to go when flooded but not at any other time.
By changing the carbs around, trying the battery coil and having about the same amount of luck?? I'm not saying you won't have seal problems, but petrol straight in the plug hole, now starting with about 1/4-1/2 throttle and no choke (as the combustion chamber is now rich) you have bypassed the involvement of the seals to get it started.
Since the jetting of the carbs you have is an unknown for your particular engine you might well have running issues once it starts, however unless they are excessively out it shouldn't actually stop it from starting once you know it's foibles as to throttle position, choke position etc. that it wants to start with.
Once again, a fast bump in second gear flies the engine over much faster than with a kick start and often overcomes any slight flooding issues, weak magneto spark etc.
Colin
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No 2 stroke will start without crankcase compression,because air will be drawn in thru the seal in preference to the carby,and then any mixture in the case will be blown back out the seal rather than thru the transfer port....In my experience a simple test is with the head off,you should get a pulse of air in the face as the motor is slowly turned.If the puff had no force,then the seals need replacing,and the motor will be near impossible to start normally..............The strangest 2 stroke I ever struck was a Rabbit scooter with a diesel engine......it used to blow puffs of black smoke and smoke rings,because the crankcase seals were worn.Started OK though,as the fuel was squirted into the cylinder mechanically.
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I'm 66 tomorrow! I was hoping for a 'Colin Rosette' on my birthday.
My first Lambretta was a pain but I found the knack, my second was dead easy unless flooded then a pain all the time. My third was tricky, but would re-start really well and run well too, but everything was fresh, cylinder, piston, rings, bearings, seals etc etc.
Right, this bike:
I will try this afternoon the petrol down the hole again since I know the sparks are there at the right time.
Good result or bad, I'll try the 1/8 throttle, no choke. The big Chinese carb has a modern choke flap that all but covers the inlet diameter when fully applied.
If all this fails (and it has in the past) then I see the next move is to remove the engine, split the lot and have the cases machined for lip seals or better still, O rings.
Bonus is I can make them on my trusty Drummond lathe.
Well, the last 10 mins have been amusing.
Neat fuel done the hole.
nothing, but a hint sometimes it just might fire. After that 1/8 throttle, ful to carb connected, no choke, nowt
Pause for a swear or three, fuel down the hole, each time about a level tea spoon full, and nothing. Removed the fuel from the carb, so carb is full.
Kicked it over about 10 times and it fired and ran beautifully, no fuel to carb just fuel in the lower crank case from the spoon fulls previously. It revved to command, ran for about 1 minute sounding nice and 2 stroke and petered -out as the bowl was dry by this time.
Exhaust at the head leaks, and a black oil was leaking.
This all focuses on the mixture?
When the conditions are right it runs, when all the essentials are in-line it will start and run well.
Is this big Chinese carb simply too rich for it?
Will try the Villiers carb now and see what happens.
I think the O ring will be more effective.
Here is the felt seal on the clutch side and the brass bush on the mag side. I can have an insert made to substitute it with an O ring in the same place as the felt.
And similarly, I can remove the brass bush with the helix machined in it's bore and insert another but with an O ring in it's length.
(https://s14.postimg.org/tpszk0dlt/DSC_0193.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Take it to the top of the steepest hill you can find, drop it into second and force the bugger to run.
Many happy returns for tomorrow,,Boy ;) ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ...........April fools day too :o
mind you, at 66 you should have learned when to admit defeat.?
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After nearly 150 posts on the topic with no solution I should buy a pushbike.
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This is the next project, must be easier than this Terrot.
More French Crap bought from an antiques dealer in Dover from the back of a van, just like Colin likes 'em. Oh, and a non runner I think, but I haven't tried it yet.
Closer to a push bike?
It will be an 'oily-rag' restoration and I shall start with the engine first.
Nice to talk about something other than the Terrot!
(https://s14.postimg.org/8t5y709tt/P1050555.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Another bike, is there no end to this man's versatility?
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who the phuk is Colin?
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Many happy ones for tomorrow! At least the new one has pedal power, you'll be able to get somewhere engine or not. I think you need an award for persevere if nothing else, if you look at it as a learning curve you'll get a diploma by the time you're done!!
If you do change the seals try to find some proper lipped seals rather than O rings, there's some pretty slim ones around. The lipped seals will seal better the more pressure that's behind them, O rings won't seal so well and won't take up as they wear.
Keep one thing in mind though, the oil seals allow a vacuum to form in the crankcase to draw in fuel and air, they then allow pressure to build in the cases to push the fuel air mix via the transfer ports to the combustion area. Air will always be present in the combustion area if the piston's down so adding fuel via the plug hole you have a "good to go" situation in the combustion chamber. So it should fire, if everything else is correct, even if you take the carb off altogether.
Even with leaky seals it should run to some degree (with a carb.) once it has started with fuel down the plug hole, hard starting is one sign of leaky seals but the other is the engine revving right up as it sucks air in around the seals so acting as if the carb slide is open. If it slow runs and dies as the throttle is shut off it isn't sucking in air around the seals.
Not being there to see and experience exactly what's happening makes it difficult to guess what's going on. You can try soaking the felt seals with oil as this will both swell them and give more of a barrier to air getting sucked in and out.
Colin
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Thank you Colin.
A wet, cold and all other weather things on Sat with the race car, not good!
Just spent an hour on the bike.
I've fitted the Villiers carb now in a hope things could change for the better.
It started after a dozen kicks (a few were full of promise, but it never fired up) and ran 'heavy' or '4 stroking'.
Ran it blipping the throttle for about a minute, and then stopped it.
Refuses to re-start as ever.
The plug is wet, so flushed with brake cleaner and it nearly restarted, but has not run since.
If I leave it for 15 mins it almost starts on the first kick, 1/8 throttle open. There is no choke on this carb.
I know the petrol down the plug hole has never given any hope of a start in the past, so will try again for the last time.
I am getting nowhere now, just ploughing the same field time after time, so I think it is time to strip the engine out and fit lip seals both sides of the crank. I can fit them I think so they can be removed without splitting the crank cases or removing the engine.
Pity to take 1/2 the bike apart for this, but something has to change to get this sorted.
Bigger pity is a French man emailed to buy the bike! Typical. >:(
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Sell it to him quick......
Tell him "needs slight adjustment to the timing".
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Bigger pity is a French man emailed to buy the bike! Typical.
The lord moves in mysterious ways, [so I am told] get shot of it quick!!
Then again yesterdays date might be a clue, its a poisson d'avril over there.
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Tempting, but I can't do that. :)
Firstly, I HAVE to sort this out for my personal satisfaction. I have never been beaten by this kind of thing, can't break the mould!
Secondly, I'd feel guilty! ::)
Tried the petrol down the plug hole again, level tea spoon full, put the plug back in PDQ and gave it 10 good kicks with a hint of frustration with each stab in 1/8 open throttle.
Nothing.
Time this afternoon/tomorrow to take the engine out, bike down into the shed and strip it down for the lip seals.
Finally, never thought of the April fool's Day.....
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I know Colin said no, but why not just fit these?
http://www.vxb.com/v/vspfiles/photos/KIT17764-2T.jpg
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If a two stroke four strokes it is generally because its got too much fuel.
It be a bugger if when you do get it running it will be doing that lovely two stroke trick of running backwards!!!!
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:)
I can get jets for the Villiers carb easy. Might get some smaller ones and try it before dragging this engine to pieces.
However, the thing will not even fart with the tiny original carb! (good nick, correct jet)
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You say that with the Villiers carb it started ran (after a fashion) for a bit then stopped with a wet plug. Cleaning the plug then putting petrol down the plug hole is a bad move, why put more petrol inside the engine when the plug came out wet, you're doubling the problem.
Wet plug means too much fuel OR engine missing and not burning the fuel. A wet plug really points against seal issues, how can fuel be getting up into the cylinder if the seals are leaking? A seal issue would mean no fuel is reaching the cylinder to fire, or it would be running very lean as air is getting sucked in. Either way not a wet plug.
Try turning the petrol on from the tank and allowing the carb to fill, then turn the petrol off again. If (and when!) you get it started, as the level in the carb drops the engine should pick up and run smoother eventually revving right up as it runs out of fuel. If this doesn't happen then it's an ignition issue.
Colin
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Is the carb definitely the right one for this bike? Wouldn't be the first project that's had any old carb stuck just to sell it.
That, and you can't trust the Frogs.... ;)
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ze frog zey have ze chatback answer.
https://youtu.be/-Ro4DrewXHE
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Colin always puts a smile on my weary face!
OK, when the engine/Villiers ran the other day it sounded'4 stroke' just as the engine has in the recent past with the Big Chinese carb on.
With both carbs, the engine will die when you fully close the throttle, and this I did the other day with the Villiers carb.
I guess it took 4 or 5 secs to stop. This would be normal operation.
The engine would not restart 10 seconds later.
After a rest of 15 mins I tried on 1/8 twist and it sort of hinted at a start but did not.
Took the plug out and it was wet (not oily and not black)
Cleaned it with brake cleaner and dried it. Re-fitted, and 20 kick, nothing but sometimes a hint of combustion.
It has not run since.
A few hours later, dried the plug and a dose of petrol down the hole, absolutely nothing during 20 kicks.
Put the bike away and wrote my 'Garage Report' above.
Did something far more positive after.
The sporadic nature of starting is silly, I have the spark at the right time, I have the carb selection (only the larger than original work) and the right fuel/mix.
I'm told elsewhere that the ethanol content in the fuel will stop it running, but I don't buy that.
The original carb is in great condition yet nothing happens.
When it does start on the big carbs although it is heavy and a bit smokey it does feel it would run for ages, no delay in responding to the twist grip, dies only when you fully close the throttle.
Does the bike run rich? Yes, I would say so, will it run with the smaller carbs? No.
Last week I gave it a go with the original carb, lots of kicks, choke plate over the inlet, and off etc and absolutely nothing. The fuel is right on the top of the vertical tube where it breaks into the main diameter of the carb. The mounting is tight to the port on the head, no filter fitted (it has a steel cup disc that mounts over the choke plate.
There we have it.
This is the original carb all cleaned inside and out. Piston is a nice slide fit, all holes and drillings are clear, float shuts off etc.
(https://s14.postimg.org/3y19zgdj5/DSC_0187.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Possibly when you close the throttle the mixture is going very rich (high inlet depression sucking excess fuel through). This may be flooding the crankcases hence its refusal to start. Your wet plug reinforces this view.
Why not set the carb so it does have a tickover position (via the cable adjuster if you have nothing else). With a 2 stroke even if you have the right mixture going into the crankcases, what actually arrives at the combustion chamber may be quite different.
And what the bodger suggests makes sense.
Mind you I am by no means a 2 stroke expert......
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Interesting comment! (not that Colin is right... ;) )
The bike is stopped by this method of fully closing the twist grip.
There is a 'Z' groove in the twist grip that is so formed that the start of the movement is where the carb is total closed off, then you get to the diagonal of the Z which is the throttle range and then it can stay at full throttle(!) The twist grip has to be turned to close the carb, it will not self close by design.
Maybe this is a early form of French Cruise Control...
It is easy to make and fit a brass finger that can ground the plug to stop the engine so stopping the fuel draw, good thought, but, again, the bike did not have this originally, so whatever they deisgned worked.
Maybe this engine is just too tired.
If I can make a better sealed primary case it will benefit the whole cycle. Getting a higher upper cylinder compression number will be hard to do.
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Spoke to a recommended specialist today on 2 strokes, vintage to racing bikes.
'We' have done a lot of good work, and he agreed that it is something basic that is amiss.
He feels the primary design is good, so do not strip it yet.
After all the fuel tests/carbs etc he was suspicious it does not react to the kick with far more sucsess, esp the fuel down the hole.
This sent me thinking (yep, dangerous) about the sparks.
Magneto
I do not have the resistance values for a good coil on the magneto. Anyone hazard a guess for me please?
I have still the original HT lead on the bike. Connections are sound, contact to the coil is good (spring loaded brass button onto a brass tab on the coil). Any point in changing this lead considering there is a flow of sparks with the plug out?
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(https://media2.giphy.com/media/26BRq84rhISRcFVUQ/giphy.gif)
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Because that's how I feel as above!
Not really ready to spend ££££ with a specialist to go over the same ground, but I expect he knows a lot more than me (obviously).
Got to find a new angle on this thing.
Just do not know which way to turn, so trying to go back to basics, compression, fuel, sparks.
:(
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But you have done that so many times already, over and over again.
It's upsetting me because I have run out of sarcasm now:o
Put a cap on it and cut your loses. There's a boat near you needs an anchor.
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I posted a while back that I thought the basic problem was a degraded flywheel magneto and suggested (as others did also) that you rigged up coil and points. I don't know why it didn't work/you didn't persevere with that set-up?
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When I rigged the 12v battery and coil the timing was smack on at 5 mm btdc, and I tried to start the bike several times but not a single pop in many kicks.
I tried that several days, same result.
It has only run on the magneto.
Going back to basics, I am taking the mag back to Villiers Services for another check and re magnetisation if needed.
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But did you check that you had a good spark?
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The battery / coil set up with a different plug lead and plug, completely does away with the magneto side of things except the points and condenser. If it doesn't run with this set up then taking the mag back to Villiers is a waste of time.
So on the ignition front, using the battery coil, that only leaves the points and condenser to look at. You have fuel, either directly down the plug hole, or by the plug getting wet so it should go BANG.
I don't know you so have no idea about your experience and knowledge, please don't think I'm being insulting to ask if the timing is 5 mm before TDC not 5 mm after TDC? although it does run on occasions which suggests otherwise. I have seen engines running after TDC and an exhaust manifold glowing like Rudolf's nose!
Actually I do remember looking at two bikes for people in the past with a very similar problem as yours. One had a standard sized piston in a +40 bore, the other had no piston rings. Both were bought as "should run with a little fettle-ling?? Although I thought you'd had the engine apart? You do mention the compression, have you tried a compression tester? Remember with these the throttle must be wide open for a compression test. But............... I seem to remember you riding it a bit last year?
Colin
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Thank you as ever for the interest and suggestions about this 'issue'.
The bike with a strong 12V car battery, a good 12v coil, a new HT lead (but this was a length of heavy duty wire, not real HT lead), all other leads were new automotive loom wire, all connections were soldered, not crimped.
As I said at the time, when I connected the ground wire there was a light sparking with the points open or closed at the -ve battery terminal.
The condenser was the original one.
I turned the engine flywheel by hand until the plug sparked. The spark 'intensity' was much the same as the spark from the 6v magneto.
The timing marks on the static and flywheel parts were in line, the engine was 5mm Before TDC, points @ 0.4mm
The spec for the engine is 5mm btdc, a figure found in various Terrot handbook pages. Most 2 strokes are 2mm btdc?
Away from this set-up I have tried 10mm btdc, 5mm, 2mm and TDC.
In all cases when the engine has run it has been @ 5mm btdc.
OK, with the 12v system attached I tried to start the engine with the large Chinese carb (used because the engine last ran with it) and some mighty hard kicks, about 20. Nothing happened.
Out with the (wet) plug, clean with brake cleaner, rub the electrodes with fine W&D, tea spoon of 30:1 in the hole, fit plug pdq and kick hard, 20+ times, nothing, not a glimmer of a fire-up.
Next day, remove the 12 volt kit, remove plug, clean etc and after some hard kicking it fired and ran. I stopped the engine by closing the throttle, and after 10 seconds tried to re-start it. Nothing at all.
So, the 12V test showed the timing to be right, the plug sparking outside the engine, no combustion.
The only times this bike has run has been on the original magneto.
I have very limited 2 stroke experience, and what I have is around Lambrettas.
The engine is all original, the bore is really good, piston is standard size and a nice fit, rings are new. When I stripped the engine the rings were solid in the piston due to carbon.
There was a lot of carbon build up in the lower crank case which must be evidence of blow by.
I know I can get a new piston, I think about 0.5 and 1mm over size are available, so if I have to I can have it rebored to suit a new piston, cost would be about £150
My back ground is in mechanical engineering, new products, 5 year classic indentured apprentice, and I did my first Lambretta when I was 15.
I have built several cars, restored 6 and have raced cars for 27 years.
I have a full bike licence, but after doing 3 hours riding on a modern 175cc bike 2 years ago I realise I don't want to ride these things due to the current breed of car drivers around here...
Thus I restore bikes for winter fun and sell them, not to make a profit, but to make room for the next one!
Below is what I normally work on, and proves I know enough to be dangerous! ;D
(https://s14.postimg.org/gyev18qo1/911andlola_001.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
And my last 2 restorations:
(https://s14.postimg.org/d5z0w6i01/P1040794.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://s14.postimg.org/9jpj8opb5/P1050145.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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I'm losing track of what's been done and not been done, but have you tried substituting the capacitor (as you call it the "condenser")? You could always just disconnect it to try the engine, it won't matter in the short term.
It seems to be the one component common to the mag and battery+coil set-ups.
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I almost feel the Same!
The capacitor is the original. Easy to disconnect and see what happens.
I'll try anything.
I have a new substitute which needs a different mounting tab to use.
Neworiginalones Ive never found.
If it was broken, what effect would that have in the short term?
It stops erosion of the point's contacts and not much else?
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The engine is all original, the bore is really good, piston is standard size and a nice fit, rings are new. When I stripped the engine the rings were solid in the piston due to carbon. There was a lot of carbon build up in the lower crank case which must be evidence of blow by.
Very hard to contribute on issues like this from a distance, but since it's getting desperate...
1. Re the bore, how do you define "really good"? Wear in a two-stroke bore is often not just at the top (as it is on a 4-stroke), but also just above and just below the ports. This is hard to measure, but on a little bike like this one even 0.005" wear in the wrong spot might correspond to "worn out". A worn out 2-stroke is hard to start - possibly why the bike was put into retirement? Certainly carbon in the crankcase sounds pretty grim. New rings won't help with wear near the ports because the bore here is no longer circular. The bore can be good at the top, and good at the bottom, but if it's worn out around the ports, the cylinder will need a rebore.
2. Replace the condenser.
Good luck.
Leon
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Hi Terrot,
The timing marks on the static and flywheel parts were in line, the engine was 5mm Before TDC, points @ 0.4mm
This is incorrect!
At 5mmbefore TDC the points should be just separating not .4mm which will be the maximum gap later in the rotation
If it was broken, what effect would that have in the short term?
It stops erosion of the point's contacts and not much else?
The capacitor or condenser is critical to ignition,
It absorbs the current from the collapsing magnetic field in the coil core, This prevents arcing on the points
If the points arc the current continues to flow through the arc, so the magnetic collapse time is longer and the transformer effect in the coil is lessened to a detrimental degree
Old condensers or capacitors degrade with time , so a NOS one is not a good idea,
If a new capacitor will not fit inside the flywheel , simply run a wire from the points connection to outside and fit it somewhere convenient,
A lot of modern replacement condensers are poor quality
have a read here
http://www.distributordoctor.com/distributor_condensers.htm
and here
http://www.nonlintec.com/sprite/cap_failure/
John
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A capacitor thats easy to fit inside the flywheel is one of the little ceramic ones sold by the magneto repairers......I havent been following this lately,as the yard is turning into jungle,and just thinking about it is tiring......anyhoo .....has the crankcase sealing been restored.....without crankcase pressure no 2stroke will start under about 3000 revs,when exhaust depression pulls mixture thru the engine.
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Re the condenser, with a battery coil it might be possible to run without a condenser for a very brief time but the points will burn almost straight away. With a magneto it probably won't work at all as the condenser sets up a resonance with the coil to produce a spark. My electrical knowledge is too limited to fully understand this resonance but I know it's there, and after much trial and error with Bantam magnetos trying different capacitors I know it's essential.
As suggested a condenser can be externally mounted (to ground) with a wire run to the points. Or look at http://www.brightsparkmagnetos.com/easycap/index.htm they do a universal one.
I bought some of these ceramic units through an electrical friend after looking at Bright sparks site and was very impressed something so small would do the same job. I fitted one on a friends Bantam and it was fine, unfortunately it didn't solve the issues with one of mine which required two condenser in the end to cure it.
A bit of time spent browsing through their site, especially looking at the videos is very informative!
By the by, throttle dampers were standard on about all British bikes to hold the throttle in a set position, I hate riding classics without them! Try indicating to make a right turn, without one every time you stick you arm out to make a right turn the bike slows down.
Colin
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This is great!
Just to clarify, the points are 0.4mm gap with the heel on the 'cam'.
If it tires to contemplate this issue, its killing me!
I have a small new condenser from V Services and with a simple mod it will fit in the magneto.
I've seen those solid state ones and they look good
The original is 25 pico farrad.
Will swop it over today.
I can't measure the bore for local wear, I only have simple callipers.
Please keep following this! You all know I need all the help I can get.
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The amount of time you (and everyone else!) have spent on this, you'd have been better stripping the whole thing and checking crankshaft seals etc. It'll only take an hour at the most to have it reduced to its kit form.
You do seem to be clutching at straws....
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Totally agree.
I am wasting everyone's time now.
I changed the condenser to the new one. Sparks with the plug out.
Set the timing etc and kicked the thing and me to death. My right foot hurts.
Absolutely nothing.
Changed the carb from Villiers to Big Chinese, nothing. Foot hurts more.
Plug is not wet despite all the choke/none choke and all the other combinations.
It is coming out, it will be stripped and I'll take the piston/cylinder to V Services for their assessment.
I will convert the crank cases to single or double lip seals and start all over again.
Packing up trying to get this done as it is.
Thank you for everyone's time and efforts. Be glad it's not yours.
See you all soon! :'(
It will take a lot longer than 1 hour.....
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Engine out, took 1 hour!
Engine apart, 45 mins.
The felt seal is out. It is in a steel base so can be readily swopped for a double lip seal. The fit of the felt is surprisingly tight to the crank shaft so I think was a good seal (pressure -wise)
It has a fine spring on the crank side like a lip seal has, but it is very loose and seems to do nothing.
The crank ball bearings will be changed for new.
The 'brass-bush' on the mag side is the problem. There is not much casting to machine a counter bore for a double or maybe single lip seal, so I need to find out what sizes are available.
Here are some pics of the parts. The crank is 17mm Dia.
I will take expert advice on the barrel and piston! I can only get standard size pistons (48.5mm dia) which is the same size as mine.
(https://s14.postimg.org/czarfrhxt/P1060612.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://s14.postimg.org/n9d6f2kox/P1060616.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://s14.postimg.org/yyh634ytt/P1060614.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Hi Terrot,
Am I seeing things or dreaming ?
The port in the centre of the photo above looks almost blocked??
As to sealing the crankcase, one or two possibilities
Some re machining of the magneto side case to add a thick disc fixed to the machined up face by some screws/sealant, the disc would house a normal lipped seal
There are companies like this one (that's local to me) who can produce special seals that would fit instead of the bronze scroll, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aiJMD6eYOQ
The special seals are very reasonably priced, I got some made to keep the gear oil from flowing into the clutch
on a couple of Indian Chief's, I seem to remember the smallest "section" seal is 3-4 mm
Or fit a double rubber sealed bearing on that side??? leave the seals in place
John
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Thank you John.
The ports are all clear, I was trying to show the condition of the bore.
As to seals, at Simply Bearings I've found the correct bearings and a double lip seal to size for the clutch side.
The mag side has that brass bush, but again found a lip seal that will fit if I get some or all of the brass sleeve machined out.
This side, the seal can go outboard of the bearing.
Total cost of parts about £10!
Need to find a small machine shop now.
Feeling very positive about this lot.
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Out of curiosity (that wot killed the cat) is there a felt seal on the plain bush side? If not it would rely on the bush / crank fit to be very good. My M/Debon (admittedly somewhat older than yours) has plain bushes both sides and no seals. Obviously a ball or roller bearing would need a seal hence the felt on that side.
If there is no seal on the plain bush side it would suggest wear in the bush (and or the crank) so a new bush would be needed and if necessary the crank ground that side. If this is the case, and you feel the felt is a good fit, then by doing the bush the engine would still be standard and shouldn't require machining to fit other oil seals.
Small Villiers engines have a bronze sealing ring which is pushed against a facing surface with a spring, I would assume your spring should be pushing a washer of some sort against the felt seal to keep it compressed against the crank. A simple but effective system which personally I would prefer to leave in place rather than fit a lipped seal, however your bike so your choice.
If there is sufficient wear in the bronze bush even if you did fit a seal there's a possibility that the crank rattling a little in the bush could still cause a leak that side with a seal fitted.
I had a bearing develop play on the timing side of one of my Banatams, I had to change it not due to vibration or noise but because oil / petrol was leaking out and onto the points. The seals were relatively new it was the small amount of play in the bearing allowing the crank to move and the seal to leak.
As already mentioned, strange looking sight with the ports?
Colin
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I agree those ports look bunged up.
chuck it into a bucket of hot caustic soda and see what its like after.
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When I first did this engine everything was soaked in paraffin to soften the carbon etc and I have poked every portion the barrel.
The picture shows the bore but also the coarse sand casting grain in the casting of the port.
All the ports look the same.
There was no felt seal on the magneto bush side, the exploded drawings of the engine so nothing either.
The fit or clearance of the bush to the crank is very close, but there is no contact due to the ball bearing.
All the bearings are original!
I will be fitting new ones and will fit a lip seal on the mag side.
At least this way the bottom end should be tight.
I'm trying to think of a way to test the lower crank under pressure but the con rod projects about 30 mm above the face where the barrel mounts so can't put a flat plate over the cease top and add a pressure inlet.
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before damaging the bush,check clearance,it may be ok,and will save a lot of work....Next,make sure the crank isnt bent,often happens with taper flywheels etc.....If the bush needs replacing,it will have to be line reamed with a piloted reamer in the drive side.....I notice an oil spiral,make sure any new bush doesnt have the spiral cut too close to the ends...To check compression,I would simply fit piston and barrel,and check for the puff of air coming up the transfer port,usually a "pop" too.Dont forget to oil the bush for a seal.....Crankcase compression will be low with a "mower type" crank,not a full circle one.Regards.
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There is something seriously wrong with those ports! Manufacturing problem? The whole idea of the two-stroke engine is that the piston rings control the port opening and closing with some precision. That ain't going to happen here. A small engine re-conditioner - if there are still such places - will advise.
Re the magneto-side shaft and bush. A bush is fine to act as both bearing and seal, but it wouldn't usually have an oil spiral; at least make sure it doesn't run all the way through the bush. The shaft needs to be round, unworn (not smaller diameter than the outer end!) and straight, and the fit in the bush pretty neat - maybe only a thou or so.
Cheers
Leon
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Its ironic that with all your obsession with ignition timing it may well be the port timing that is the problem?
Maybe that its a Dud replacement part has been fitted somewhere along the line and the damn thing never run since?
The paraffin soak is not up to clearing really hard old carbon, but that looks like metal in those ports.
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A small engine re-conditioner - if there are still such places - will advise.
I had my Ariel Arrow rebored by a company called Nametab in Redditch. The owner, Simon Bateman, was very knowledgeable about 2 strokes. If they're local to you maybe worth a visit?
http://www.nametabengineering.com/
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I know Nametab, Villiers specialists. I used Simon when I needed parts for a Villiers (E I rebuilt (but never started) on a Barlotti Kart I restored.
He has down-sized to racing only work, the spares went to my new friends, Villiers Services. I have a 2 stroke specialist (Reed Speed) and VS quite close, but I'll try VS and see what they say.
They have an engine cleaning service.
Back to the barrel; this morning I grazed a scriber down everywhere and all are clear, ie no coke. When I originally stripped the engine there was 3mm of coke in the exhaust port, the down pipe and the silencer. This is why I replaced the pipe and silencer.
I have shone a high intensity torch light through the ports to, a stiff bottle brush and a gallon of paraffin. I will go through the lot again.
This is why I have taken it all down again to start a fresh build.
The bearings and seals are on their way. I have managed to get a double lip seal of 17mm x 22mmOD. This means I can remove just 5mm of the brass 'grooved' sleeve next to the crank bearing and a touch of the case casting so preserving the majority of the bush, but I think the bush is not 1 thou clear of the crank, much more like 5 or 10 thou,
When done I will have new bearings, 2 x double lip seals on the crankshaft so the bottom should be air tight.
I will drill an M6 hole in the bottom of one case half to allow a petrol drain (as per Colin's Bantam) with a tight plug.
Will have to make all new paper gaskets as they all tore when I took it apart.
After this will be the piston/barrel check. With no oversize piston to be found I think I'm lumbered to what I have....
I noticed the head gaskets had not leaked, no oil residue on the top fin.
Have to wait now for the parts, but will do the gaskets tomorrow in preparation or prob go to Villiers Services as well.
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In that case whats going on in those ports? because they don't look at all good to me.
Whats the bore diameter? is it per spec sheet? It would not surprise me if its been bored out too far or maybe even a cylinder for something smaller has been bored out.
I have seen examples of 1950s French peasant bodgery, nothing is beyond them. I am convinced that is likely where your problem is; teh bike was never manufactured to space age tolerances, and its well known that two strokes run best when knackered.
Can you not send a pic to the Terrot club of those ports? Or maybe one of the dealers you have bought from for an opinion?
I did a bit of search on ebay france, found this cylinder with good shot of the ports, not the same as yours exactly but just look at the finish of those ports
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/cylindre-rond-moto-collection-TERROT-250-magnat-debon/202280803129?hash=item2f18e01b39:g:WkQAAOSwn-tZLEiT
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I would be very concerned with 5-10 thou clearance with the bush, if you can't check it yourself maybe take it to an engineering shop and have them see what's what. No mains bush should be near that much and you're asking a lot for an oil seal to seal with that much potential crank movement.
I believe you mentioned you have a lathe, it's not a difficult job to turn up a new mains bush. If you have a lathe you must have a micrometer so you can check the crank for uneven wear and ovality, yourself. I made a tool post grinder for my lathe and ground my M/D crank myself, bought some lead bronze off eBay to make the new bushes (softer bronze as the shafts aren't super hard). The oil scrolls I will do freehand with a pencil die grinder. Worse case scenario it shouldn't cost a fortune for one main journal to be ground by a machine shop, just ask them to remove the bare minimum to clean it up and make the bush to suit.
With the bush fitting the crank correctly an oil seal shouldn't be needed and the engine should be a lot smoother. Got to be worth getting everything right while the engine's down.
Like the others I'm suspicious about those ports, old carbon can be like concrete. I would try attacking them with something serious until I was sure they were definitely solid metal.
Colin
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At the first strip down, I tried to remove the bush to replace it with a close fitting sleeve, but it will not shift and that is with the case really hot.
The crank journals are round and clean, the bearings are 'ok' but new ones will be better.
The lip seal is tolerant of some movement as it obviously conforms to small variations.
I've made up my mind to lip seal the crank just as my Lambretta was.
As to the cylinder bores; I will attack them tomorrow and see if any carbon I thought/think is steel comes free!
It is hard to photograph them but I will try again after my attack.
The transfer passage (single from the lower case) splits into a 'Y' within the barrel, my pic above is of the smaller of the Y passages, the main inlet is much larger, maybe 3 x the area.
If a good 2 stroke is a knacker'd one, mine should be hypersonic in performance (and start on command)!
As I said before, I fear there is nothing I can do to improve the barrel/piston fit, the rings are new and the ring gap is about 5 thou (2 rings).
A fresh standard dia piston would be better, but there are no score marks on this piston, no obvious wear marks etc.
The step at the top of the bore is extremely light now all the carbon is off.
I believe the barrel is original. The model (up to 1949) of this bike had a very different barrel, twin exhausts pipes, single carb, same spec as mine.
I will ask Chambrier if they have any oversize pistons, they have been good in the past to me, but none show on their site.
Hope to get several hours on the engine tomorrow. Thanks for your continued patience.
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Chambrier have oversize pistons with rings!
Std is 48.5, 49/49.5/50mm dia are available, 90 Euro.
Been busy.
The piston I have is 49mm so the engine has seen a rebore of +0.5mm in the past.
Went to V Services, and the Man was not impressed by the bore, "stepped and scored", "it's French so probably crap" (must be Colin's son)
He thinks a 50mm piston is best and that will get everything fresh assuming Chambrier have a NOS 50mm as they advertise. I await a reply from them.
The bearings and seals arrived from Simply Bearings, a 24 hour service for £18, not bad.
VS cannot machine the case for the lip seals on the (brass bush) magneto side, so the case will have to be machined somewhere here.
The new lip seal is 22mm OD and the brass bush about 21.3mm OD, so all can be done.
Wish I was back at work so I could DIY this in the proto shop.
So, my plan is to get the case machined and put the engine back together.
It is nothing to slip the piston/barrel/head back together and see if it will start/run.
If it does, then it gets sold.
If not, then I will get the piston and the barrel sorted and back together.
If this works, then it gets sold and someone gets a bargain and I get my life back.
If I do this what clearance is right for the piston/barrel?
Does 0.003" sound right??
Here are the pics of the ports.
You lot WERE right about the one port. There was an edge of hard grey crud on the edge or the port (exhaust) so I've clear the lot, not a lot came out to be honest, about 8 grains of sugar if that.
All are nice and open now:
Inlets: The port with the 'v' shape in one edge is from the carb. the other port is from the case under compression, transferred up the single port in the barrel base.
(https://s14.postimg.cc/g2q8ewqxd/DSC_0036.jpg) (https://postimages.cc/)
(https://s14.postimg.cc/6jgjkzt01/DSC_0038.jpg) (https://postimages.cc/)
Exhaust (previously questioned)
(https://s14.postimg.cc/q1b70vsht/DSC_0037.jpg) (https://postimages.cc/)
Piston:
(https://s14.postimg.cc/l2nomdbu9/DSC_0039.jpg) (https://postimages.cc/)free photo hosting (https://postimages.cc/)
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Lawnmower technology all the way..not even loop scavenge.....certainly not going to be a rocket ship.....on the bright side....you wont be getting any speeding fines.
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Yes indeed, something of an obstruction on today's road, esp around here where bikes are invisible.
I won't ride it, restore and sell is my objective.
Wish the machine shop would hurry up!
Gasket cutting today..... :o
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The case is back today from the local machine shop, so I now have:
Lip seals on both sides of the crank
Lip seals on the kick start shaft that leaked gearbox oil all over the place. No wonder the case was dry when I had the bike.
Drain plug incase of flooded lower crank case.
New crank bearings
Gaskets cut
Note the 'seal sleeve' pushed out whilst machining the bore for the lip seal, but I'll leave it there for now.
Can't get to re-assembly for a few days, but hope to get the engine back together and in for testing next week.
As said before, going to try the current piston and barrel for now and if it starts great, if not a new 50mm piston, fresh rings and a re-bore at Villiers Services.
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I'm a bit amazed that the timing side bush is unchanged, and that you're intending to leave the bore as is. But I guess you know when "the man" described it as "stepped and scored" that this is not good. Many restorations are like this: very pretty but rubbish mechanicals. Pity, as there is real joy to be had riding a machine that runs as it should. Measurement and fit are words just-about lost to motorcycle restoration these days.
Make sure you put the piston in the right way around. Was it correct before? The motor won't start if it's back-to-front.
Good luck.
Leon
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In this work, I want to find what was wrong.
I felt the step was ok, your nail can hardly feel it.
If the sealing to the lower case was at fault then it will show when I try to start it.
The upper compression does not seem to be poor, but if the engine will not start then I'll look to reborn once I have the £100 piston in my garage.
The piston shape fits the chamber in the head, the head won't go one if the piston is wrong orientation.
Got the basic engine back together now, clutch and magneto next.
All done now, even the pre-loading of the kick start spring went well, that's a first.
Thought you might like to see the guts of this powerhouse.
(https://s17.postimg.cc/9ejjaej0v/P1060751.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Great set of "mangle gears" there! ;)
You seem to have a great machine shop on tap.... let's hope it's all good now.
When you take it racing you'll have to make up some big old crankcase stuffers!
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Yes, the crankcase compression will be very poor.
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2nd speed has certainly seen far better days, lots of clutchless crunching I think.
I stuffed the crankcase on my hot Lambretta back in the late 60's, bloody vibration!
Hope this works... ???
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Hi All
I do not think the condition of the remains of the original bronze crank (sealing) bush will matter as the ball bearing supports the crank ? leave it in or remove it ??
John
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Agree John, and it is already out, simply pulled out of the casting using pliers.
Stuck for a bit of time to spend putting it back in the bike frame for testing.
Thinking of making a simple engine stand so I can kick start it out of the bike and once reliable fit it in the frame.
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Everything back together in the frame.
Kicks galore and swear words, some in French and very little action.
There was a whiff of combustion at times, even a pop, but no running.
This is with the Big Carb that it has randomly run on before.
Tried a fair bit og choke and removed the new crank case drain plug expecting to see a flow of petrol, but nothing.
The plug was dry after the first 20 kicks.
Petrol down the plug hole made no difference.
I think now I have to rebore the engine using a £150 NOS 50mm (max rebore) with Terrot rings.
What I have noticed is the ring ends are very very highly polished and the ring 'diameter' either side of the ring gap is grey.
Thus there is a high spot where the ring gap is.
Upper compression is obviously being lost.
The only way to true the lot up is a fresh bore and new piston. Just talking the wife round to throwing more money at this bike. (going to cost me...)
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If the ring ends are polished they must be butting up. I assume there is a pin to stop them rotating?
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Yes, 2 simplerings, bothhave anti rotation pins in the same place.
The ends are cut at 45 degs.
I'll take the barrel off and look harder, but resigned to a full rebore.
When will this end?
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Foutre
merde
putain
bordel
baiser ce connerie de un batard moto, je te emmerder.
won't work but you'll feel better if it understands you are a little peeved.
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She is resistant to my Anglo charms for sure.
Nothing for it but to get rough and show her the boring bar!
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Trying to keep my mojo with this thing, so tried checking a few things today.
The plug is remarkably DRY after all this kicking..
The timing is 6mm BTDC so needs a tweek to 5mm, but doubt it is that sensitive.
The points gap was far to big, nearly 40 thou, so bought that back to 12 thou, should be 16 but really difficult to get exact.
Plug gap is 25 thou.
Kicked it (over) many times and on each kick the thing almost fires, you can smell products of combustion.
I do not have the exhaust pipe on, so you can hear if it fires or not.
Almost every kick it fires, even sometimes for 1 or 2 seconds but will not run.
This is an improvement. It seems SO close to working!
Going to spend a few hours on it on Monday.
If this effort results in Zero then I will order a new piston @ 50mm and re-bore.
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2 strokes do like a bit of back pressure so you may be doing it no favours by leaving the pipe off.
Maybe it's never run and was designed only as an ornament?
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Yes, good point.
I was being lazy not putting it back on, will do on Monday.
It would look good in a fashion shop!
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I'd close the plug gap down a bit too.
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About 18 Thou?
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Don't you know?
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About 18 Thou?
Sounds a good place to start. My Scott runs at that gap.
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Thanks Rex.
No, I didn't know magneto ignitions use a smaller gap so the plug has always been at 24 thou.
On Monday I hope to get a few hours on the bike.
Will fit the exhaust. This engine has never run without the exhaust fitted, wonder if that might persuade it to run.
Will reset the timing to factory spec 5mm btdc, get the points closer to 0.4mm, plug to 18 thou
Fresh fuel (current fuel is a month old) and kick it to death.
If this all fails then it is a full reborn.
Been offered £1700 for it as it stands, but I need to get it sorted for my own satisfaction.
Not ready to loose £1000 just yet.
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One stroker that wouldnt start,turned out cylinder base gasket had no transfer port cutouts.....Anyhoo,if it wouldnt go,I would hook up a large electric drill to the sprocket,and motor it over at a rate of knots.....This is how I start my rideon lawnmower,since the recoil broke.
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Base gasket definitely has the transfer port cut out in the gasket.
I don't have a 240v drill that has a reverse and my battery drill is not man enough, tried it already.
Spent an hour with it in the garage this afternoon.
Put the exhaust back on.
Checked the timing, 5mm btdc so correct.
Set the plug gap to 18 thou, was 24 thou. I didn't know the gap needed to be 18 for a magneto.
Fuel in, choke on, good kick.
Fired 3 times ish, about 2 seconds max and stopped.
Almost every kick (now with the choke off) gave a single fire, but no continuous running.
This is quite a change to how it was before the crank seals were replaced with lip seals. Not sure if this is a better situation I'm now in.
That's it, gained nothing more than a foot hurting from repeated kicking, and have bent the bike stand too!
Next step is to change the timing to 2mm btdc and see what happens.
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Hi All,
Bas**rd 2 strokes !!!
I spent several hours earlier today trying to get a 2 stroke strimmer to start :P :P
I tried all the usual tricks, hot plug, cleaned carb a few times, new plug, repeat adinfinitum ::)
Eventually I removed the drive that revealed a square socket that takes the flexy cable
I milled a suitable square section at one end of a piece of 10mm round bar,
put the other end in a drill chuck, and spun it
I could hear it attempting to fire every so often but kept spinning it adjusting throttle and choke until after about 5 minutes it ran on its own
The bast**d then settled down to a nice tick over and started on the pull cord every time after that ???
WTF?
I remember back when I worked part time at a local garage during school holidays some rebuilt engines were
very difficult to start for the first time after refitting them
2 or 3 batteries or tow them up and down the roadway till they sputterred into life, and then they would fire up easily every time after that ::)
Enough rambling
John
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I certainly share those feelings!
Will have another go tomorrow...
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out here we got some "Aerostart" type stuff in a spraycan called "Start-Ya -!"£%^%".....none of the ether based sprays ever fail to fire up ,in my experience,I would never be without a can or two.
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I think you can still get easy-start in the UK. http://www.halfords.com/motoring/engine-oils-fluids/fuel-oil-additives/bradex-easy-start-300ml
It might help to narrow down your problem although you do seem to have addressed most things......
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Spray a whole can of easy start into the carb, stuff carb with petrol soaked rag, light rag, retire to safe distance.
Sorted.
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;D ;D
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Saga is getting boring now.
https://youtu.be/Px-FRo1K3DE
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Yep, boring is about right.
I've tried a fresh can of easy start some time back, did nothing at all.
I've walked away from it for a few days just to have a break.
On this and another site nobody has spotted or suggested something that changes things, and I have a lot of clever and experienced people helping here, all to no avail.
It is very hard to think of anything I've missed, it is a 2 stroke simple thing yet it has defeated me so far.
I can only change the timing, and the carb.
It has run a few times, never started when I wanted it to (ie turn the fuel on, a few kicks, it fires and runs).
If it irritates some of you imagine how it is for me. Thank goodness it is not my main interest and I need the bike for the summer runs etc.
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Have you tried a battery, coil & condenser; wired through the existing points? It was suggested some time ago, before you tore the engine apart again.
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I can only emphasise that you can alter the ignition timing up an down till you are blue in the face, but a couple mm's either way won't make a blind bit of difference.
These are not exactly sophisticated engines.
It's my confirmed belief you are barking up a whole forest of wrong trees.
Don't ask me what tree is left to bark up.
I suspect the whole bloody thing is dud.
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Yes, did the battery 'by-pass' exercise some 1000 pages ago, but that did nothing at all.
I feel I have no real options left besides sell as a shop display, give it to the Nat Motorcycle Museum, give it away, skip it in that order.
Tempted to give the magneto back to Villiers Services for another looking at, but I'm ploughing the same field again.
If you lot don't know then I have no chance, I'm used to Porsche 911 engines, much simpler to get right.
I think a Villiers 4E engine would fit? :)
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All joking aside, that would be a good move, or be really outrageous and fit something like a CD200 engine... ;)
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I have to admire your persistence.
The NMM won't have it as they're British only.
Shop display sounds favourite. One selling beard wax and tattoo enhancing cream perhaps?
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You obviously get about a bit Ian.
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Porsche?
I wouldn't have any German car as a gift... VW and its emission lies
Mercs rust, my local scrappy is loaded with 10year old Mercs of all kinds.Mostly electrics to expensive to fix.
Audi, too expensive to repair, loved by drug dealers
BMW, the kebab shop owners favourite, a total con, seen the latest recall? I lost count of the number I seen on the back of breakdown trucks.
around 1975 I went o a BMW course at Chiswick HQ, that convinced me to never buy one.
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Don't hold back! ;)
Worse still, I have 3 Germans and 2 Skodas!
It nearly started 6 times this afternoon....
Bloody thing.
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Hi Graham,
Terrot built tens of thousands of bikes, so let's assume the little bike worked fine when it was new, and worked OK until it stopped working. Most likely it wore out. Probably at the end the owner got sick of it not starting on the kick-starter and having to push it down the hill and jump on when it fired.
The idea of restoration is to measure and check everything, replace what needs replacing and fix what needs fixing, then enjoy the bike as it was when it was new. If you want the bike to run, you'll have to do these things - sadly no amount of forum chat will make it run if the thing is worn out. If the man at the engine shop tells you the bore is worn out, it's probably worn out. New rings won't help, because they are round, and the wear in two-stroke bore is not. How's the big end? The little end? Does it have any compression? If the engine is worn out, it will be very hard to start.
I'd be more than happy to have a look at it for you, but I suspect I'm on the other side of the planet. Perhaps you can hook up with someone experienced who lives locally? In the meantime, if you want it to run take the advice above and spin it over with a drill (or whatever), or just push it down a big hill. It will run, with the rattle and clank of a worn-out two stroke.
Cheers
Leon
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Thank you Leon.
I suspect you are right.
I'll bite the bullet and get a new 50mm NOS piston and have the bore machined to suit.
Graham.
I'm in Wolverhampton, England.
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New piston on order from Chambrier with new rings etc.
Will be rebored to suit:
Question:
What clearance would you all recommend between piston and barrel?
Also brand new points and heel from Pieceallumage.fr
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..... just push it down a big hill.....
.... or off a high cliff.....
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Set light to it, and sell tickets to all your "fans" on here to watch it burn, that should recoup some of the cost.
Incidentally, I think I know who made you that offer earlier, he meant £1.70, not 1700.
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Might be worth £1700 or 1700 Euro when it runs a dream.
It was a French man who fancied it (as it stands).
It will owe me £3000 soon....
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I think that Frenchman was bluffing, or a wind up.
Without original Carte Grise he'll have bugger all chance of getting it registered in France, especially as a import.
The reason why so much of this old french tat is coming over here via various auto jumble chancers' vans is because their govt has clamped down on the issue of the CG and its virtually impossible to get a new one. They want documents from the original dealer or factory to ID the thing, no chance.
Their bureaucracy is a nightmare regarding such things.
Even if you can get new docs you are often restricted to riding the thing to a radius of a specific distance from your home.
If it owes you 3k, and you have been offered 1700 why did you not take it rather than throw money at it?
Then again, ownership of German cars does signify a certain tendency to masochism............... :o :o
Ve haf vays ov taking your money...
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Ha!
You always make me smile!
Why do I do these things is beyond me at times.
Having restored and sold well the Lambretta and the Honda CB 175 Super Sport bike, I thought I would chance this one. Thought it might be tricky....
A bad choice, but I like these tech challenges though this one is more than I bargained for.
Engine all apart again waiting the new parts.
Looking at the new rings I fitted, they are very poor, really not very circular when slipped into the bore.
The NOS piston and rings in a fresh bore will be factory quality.
As to German cars, an acquired taste for sure.
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One I acquired many years ago. ;)
I realise that this bike is your interest but the trick is knowing when to stop chucking money at it. Not unusual for sellers to advertise Bantams etc for £2000 when it stands them in at £3000.
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As to German cars, an acquired taste for sure.
Like hair shirts and self flagellation?
I have occasional amusement getting people to google "unsold new motorcars". Its astounding how many new cars are sitting unsold on airfields and other sites. BMW have a facility for stripping the damn things down again.
They can't stop producing cars so they end up with a huge glut, meanwhile mugs pay way over the odds because they think they are buying quality or status.
Back in the 1980s I had to chauffeur around my employer in an Audi 100CD, it was shite through and through. Minimal resale value, hugely expensive to repair. How many of those do you see around?
Good luck with the piston, when its all been replaced repaired or modified and still won't go, whats next?
Semtex?
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Self flagellation? what, with your knee?
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I do it by proxy, I tell the wife where to hit me. :o :o
Knee is coming along fine thanks,far better than expected.
I have a load of women therapists bossing me around.
Nice ;)
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I do it by proxy, I tell the wife where to hit me. :o :o
And then she won't, and that's what really hurts..
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Just to ease you all back to more pressing things!
The piston is on it's way from France at great expense, and I'll have a bore to re-bore.
What clearance would be appropriate?
I was going to tell Villliers Services to bore it like it was a Villiers 4E (98cc 2 stroke, same era).
Should be ok?
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Surely you send the piston to whoever is doing the rebore.
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Often there's a recommended clearance from the piston manufacturer. If not, Villiers clearance would be a guide. If someone tells you less than 2.5 thou, or more than 4, I'd double check.
Leon
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If its an Indian made piston, about 3/8 inch judging from other sites :(
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I think I may have suggested Nametab in Redditch. Simon there will sort you out.
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If the piston you've ordered is correct for that engine why suggest that it's rebored to suit a completely different (presumably) 4F piston?
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Looking at the new rings I fitted, they are very poor, really not very circular when slipped into the bore.
another tree wrongly barked at?
In my experience it'll be the bore that's out of round.
It occurs to me that for all this wasted cash, you could have nipped over to a couple of the large autojumbles in France, had a bit of a holiday, bought a couple more decent engines of known quantity and still have spent less money?
Or you could even have paid me to do it? ;D
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It was a comment made by Villiers. Services a few weeks ago when discussing the piston and bore.
He asked me to find out what clearance to machine to.
The piston on its way is NOS Terrot, no idea who made it in 1950 ish, so no body to ask.
I had 3 thou in my mind, but using a period Villiers engine of comparable age and performance I thought would be a guide.
The new piston will be given to the machinist with the barrel.
I know Nametab from a 9E engine reborn they did for me.
They only do race machines I think, all spares have gone to Villiers Services.
I should think Nametab would be an excellent place.
I also have Beadspeed close, they do a lot of Lambretta stuff, and did my Honda reborn with new pistons (2 beautiful Honda Pistons for £20 each....).
A trip to rural France for some parts sounds good!
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Nametab were still doing rebores etc less than a year ago, but I think they have stopped selling spares. They do seem to know what they're about with 2 strokes.
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Yes, their site says all machining can be done to old Villiers, but a 2 stroke is a 2 stroke when considering 1950 'technology' so a 'villiers' tolerance should be fine.
I've read 2.5 to 4 thou is about right, so 3 is even better.
I was a bit put-off when V Services asked me what clearance was needed, I expected then to advise me.
Anyway, doubt I can get the parts to anyone next week as things are particularly busy.
Villier 4E engines are as rare as Terrot MT1 engines....
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buy a running one
http://www.siboni.com/html/fiche.jsp?id=2901646&np=1&lng=fr&npp=100&ordre=&aff=2&r=
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A rebore will leave the ports sharp edged,so dont forget to bevel the edges .
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Thanks John, I would expect the machinist to dress the edges after the bore?
Will ask them to do this, thanks for the heads-up.
These bikes do come up complete and for sale sometimes, but not in real numbers.
I think the Terrot lads look down on them.
I don't think Terrot got back on it's feet after the war, sold to Peugeot in the late 50's.
http://www.classicbikesuk.com/stock/3155TerrotE.jpg
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Actually Terrot was the BSA of France after the war, on a par with Motobecane, no other firm made large 4 strokes, police and Army used Terrot and their 350 and 500 were not bad bikes.
What stuffed the french bike industry was French Govt anti bike legislation.
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Piston and barrel now at Villiers Services, gone for a 3 thou piston clearance.
They will dress the port edges too. Should be done by Thursday this week.
Rings are nice and close in the piston grooves etc, so fingers crossed this could be good.
Also, the new points and cam follower (all NOS) arrived today.
Should have it all back together for the Big Start during the weekend or before.
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After a few mis-communications, V Services finally bored the barrel, honed and dressed the ports, got it back this afternoon.
Fitted the NOS points and the new heal and now have total control over the points gap!
Planning to bolt it all together tomorrow with the Big Carb and see if it works..... :o
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Well, this French affaire still will not surrender to me!
Gapped the rings to 9 thou, put the piston on the rod and the barrel onto the piston with a struggle as everything is so sharp.
The engine would not move.
Took it all apart and tried the piston in the bore without rings, lovely slip down the bore.
Put the bottom ring on and the same thing, full piston travel.
Removed that ring and fitted just the top ring.
The piston jams solid and eventually it is obvious that the ring ends of the top ring fall into the largest (inlet) port!
The new piston has it's brass ring locator pins in the wrong place, or at least the top ring is in the wrong place. Comparing the old piston (on the left in the pic) to the new one, the position error is obvious.
Just what else can get in my way?
I have complained to Chambrier just, so will wait for a reply. I can re-drill the piston and re-position the pin but the pin is 1/2 in the ring groove and 1/2 in the piston body, thus it is really a job for a good milling machine, so might have to go back to the man who did my case and another £40.
(https://s22.postimg.cc/vmirytnb5/P1060852.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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I think this engine is bored to death.
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:)
Just how I feel....
Maybe just one day it will be done.
I wonder just what else can get in my way?
Maybe the MT1 engine was changed in that the ports were repositioned before or after mine and the ring stop positions changed to suit.
Anyway, there is a huge 40mm wide land in the bore 180 deg opposite the current location. why the designer did not put the pins there I'll never know.
There are bosses inside the piston skirt to take the pin depth, and both pins have missed them, you can see the pins sticking out inside the skirt.
Friday afternoon piston machining.
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I wonder just what else can get in my way?
A reality check?
Bankruptcy?
the end of the world?
the second coming?
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Perhaps the piston is correct for a Terrot but just not for your particular model? Older or newer, maybe?
Think you may have to wait for Jean-Claude to acknowledge that it's no good for your bike though. That vin rouge won't drink itself...
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Have you tried moving the barrel round a little to the left perhaps?
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You have been sampling the bottle of red!
I've resigned to adding 2 new pins else where round the the ring groves well away from any port, i.e. 180 deg on the other side of where they are now!
I think also the piston is for a Terrot MT1, just not mine!
Long holiday coming up so might leave the re-pin for a few weeks.
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You have more patience than me. I would've had it on evilbay a long time ago.
Good luck with it and I do hope there is noise at the end.
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Anyway, there is a huge 40mm wide land in the bore 180 deg opposite the current location. why the designer did not put the pins there I'll never know.
The steep side of the piston crown points towards the transfer port - the one that carries the charge from the crankcase to the cylinder. Correct?
Leon
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Indeed it does.
The piston crown is huge, a blade almost that is mirrored in the cylinder head casting.
At tdc the combustion chamber is on the exhaust side.
I am not known for patience, but I cannot let this go until working properly.
I am known for being tenacious...
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OK - I don't get it. In the photo of the bike (and the photos of the internals of the cylinder, piston and motor) it looks like the transfer port is at the back and in the inlet port (the lowest port, that is uncovered and joins the carb to the crank case at the top of the stroke) is on the left (near) side of the bike. Viewed from this side, the steep part of the piston crown is to the rear, so the piston ring gap was always in line with the inlet port? Or is it an optical illusion? Or maybe the rings stay above the inlet port, in which case which port does the ring join line up with?
Maybe the piston in the bike when you got it was incorrect. When you peg the rings so the joins don't align with a port, make sure you fill the original peg holes. Or just use the dremel to remove the half of the original peg projecting into the ring groove.
[Edit: I just can't imagine you'd have to slide the ring gap across a port to assemble the motor!]
Cheers
Leon
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The original piston had no probs in the bore.
The ring gaps and pins all passed between to the one some of that unusually shaped port on clean metal along the bore.
The new piston, the second ring gap just about clears the edge of the same port, but the top ring gaps slide right into the port edge and the piston will not pass that port, it is a sold metallic stop.
Hope that makes sense.
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Nothing in this saga makes sense.
A sane man would have junked it long ago.
Tout de même, tout le monde a son propre poison.
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Well without wishing to appear rude, I think it's becoming a thoroughly pointless thread an is only feeding your own desire to keep on posting. It's run it's course now; after all this time with nothing positive.
Purely my personal view.
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Yes, I think you and others are of the same mind.
I approached this forum for help, and I've had a lot, and I'm thankful for that.
I'll sort it and move on.
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My dog is constantly humping a cushion, but after a while end he gets fed up and tries a table leg.
There's a moral there somewhere.
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Yes, I think you and others are of the same mind.
I approached this forum for help, and I've had a lot, and I'm thankful for that.
I'll sort it and move on.
You hang in there and keep us abreast of how it's going.
You know the old Blues number which goes "if it wasn't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all"? Well, if it wasn't for your posts this forum would have no posts either! We need you.... ;)
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I agree with Rex, kind of look forward to your saga! If the rest of the piston is right, ie. gudgeon pin size, correct shape to the wedge on top then it's easy. Just file the brass peg down and re-locate it, careful work with a hacksaw will cut it clean with the ring groove and making a new pin is easy as you have a lathe. Won't come out as the ring will hold it in and don't cost nothing!
9 thou ring gap is a bit excessive? However it won't stop it running, don't stop now. Can't say I'm holding my breath but do look regularly to see your latest update.
Colin
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You cannot leave us without an ending. Please stay.
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That was part of my point. After 143 posts by Terrot (only on this topic) and nine months, will there ever be an ending?
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I disagree, It's entertainment, makes a change from "oh look at my overpriced new bike", or" I'm off on a cruise," or"I just watered my plants see the pretty pic" type of thing elsewhere.
I am beginning to admire his misguided tenacity and the depth of his wallet, but I'm 80% certain there is something unfix-ably wrong here, sometime in the past incompatible parts have been fitted, some kind of mechanical/electric mismatch.
Personally I would have spent a fortnight in France doing the rounds of the jumbles there and found a replacement engine, for sure the only way would be to compare like with like.
On the bright side hopefully this saga will at least discourage others from buying old french tat. The cost of all this would have bought a decent old Brit classic.
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Dead-on with the last sentence. It's a pet peeve of mine, all these half-complete Deco-style Frog things that enthusiasts think will be got running with a new plug and some juice.
Don't know why, it ain't my money they're spending but it seems wishful thinking to believe that they're anything other than garden ornaments, and as you say, a better home-grown bike could've been bought for less.
There must be thousands of 'em propping up the garage wall in the Home Counties, all for sale as unfinished projects and just needing a clutch/mag/gearbox internals/head/front forks to run.
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yes, I know really want to hear if it ever gets to run, properly.
I still have plenty of sarcasm left ;) 8)
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There is no such thing as unfixable...........years ago,when I had a crane truck,I picked up a 1904 Moon chassis,with a crankcase with four rods and pistons stuck up in the air.......might have been a steering assy and a ally diff housing too,dont remember......I said.....Youll never get that going......two years later ,it was a going ,driveable chassis,and wooden bodyframe started on....so nothing is unfixable.......yet the original owners of these little poppers couldnt do the simplest maintenance job on them.
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a bit like George Washington's axe though?
A subtle difference between unfixable and why bother?
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Hi Terrotmt1
Have you made any progress?
John
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there is a U tube video of a fellow delivering a wheelbarrow load of old bits to a restorer,and six months later driving off in a Bentley..........so throwing money at a resto will definitely produce results.
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But with a Bentley ie, either rare, expensive or both, there's reason to do that, but the same logic hardly applies to a Raleigh Wisp..
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Its the bloke who got paid drove the Bentley away..............
Bike owner went by bus.
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Hi All,
so throwing money at a resto will definitely produce results
I dont know about that ::)
there are plenty so called restorers out there who will take all your money to restore a bike
BUT it still will not be repaired
Beware of shiny sh1te >:( >:(
I have lost count of the repairs I had to do to get some "restored" bikes roadworthy for the people who had bought them!!!
Almost impossible to try and go back to get satisfaction from sellers :(
John
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I have a 1948 Terrot M347 which I restored some 18 years ago. I am sure that at that time, I managed to get hold of all the seals & bearings in the UK just from the part numbers on them. I would think that your engine is essentially the same as mine. The oil to fuel mixture for my engine is 8 to 1 from the original manual, so it might be worth trying that. Get ready for the smokescreen though!
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Hello all.
Reluctantly, I will update you all.
It still does not run, but some details.
I re located the two ring pins and put it all back together.
Feels like nice compression, sucks well, blows well!
Fitted the original carb.
It fired about the 3 rd kick, but ran for about 3 seconds.
Would not re start. It has never run one stroke or many on this carb.
Put the big Dellorto on.
Started after some severe kicks but would not 'take' any throttle, crap response.
This poor response has repeated itself a few times, but really is is a non starter.
Villiers Services have nothing to add, and do not want to try to get it going...
I tried to get it going again last week and it actually ran of a sort.
It runs better with some choke on, let's guess ar 50% choke on which points to weak mixture.
About a week ago I kicked the thing nearly to death and really did a nasty to my right foot, so came to France for a break!
Doubt I will find a bike autojumble in Saumur.
Have been offered £1500 for it, a loss of £1000 if I sell.
So, better compression, good primary and a good spark, timing correct, point gap right, no joy.
And an offer for £1500.
Not much further forward than July.
Now you know where I stand!
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Take it and buy a Bantam.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BSA-D14-BANTAM/202429718561?hash=item2f21c06021:g:bZMAAOSwiZVbkq-e
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As a Scott owner and forum member I've seen similar scenarios to yours several times now.
"I've just bought/rebuilt this old Scott and it won't run for more than a couple of pops, please help" is the typical question.
The old hands always answer that on a primitive two-stroke oil is an essential part of the sealing (compression) process, and if the seals, rings etc are dry then sealing is poor to non-existent and it ain't gonna run.
The Scott has removable covers over the transfer ports and the standard reply is to take these off and give the workings a good dose of thick oil. I know yours won't have these removable covers but it's something to consider. After all, when Pierre used to ride that bike daily to the garlic factory the engine never dried out, and no-one would buy a bike for the daily grind which couldn't be started.
Have you tried starting rollers?
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Nah, buy a pushbike. You'll certainly get there quicker.
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Thanks for the oil suggestion, adds to a previous comment about a higher oil dose to the fuel on an engine almost the same as the MT1.
Will give the fuel a thick dose and see.
I don't actually want this bike as a road runner, not interested in riding one of these, the purpose is simply to go them and move on.
I have a Peugeot BMA moped waiting.
I will be certain to get the engine sorted first!
As to rollers, no, but looking to buy a 240 v pistol drill that will run anti clockwise.
Should save my right foot from further injury.
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jumble list
https://www.calage44.com/region_paysdelaloire/
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Thank you for the list, we will be back in the UK late Wed this week, but the link is very useful.
I bet I will still have by little Terrot in 2019...
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Did you know that back in early 1963,at the time of the big freeze,the British government were so concerned that if the channel froze over,southern England would be invaded by a massive horde of Frenchmen in stripey jackets riding terrots ,mobylettes ,peugeots and other tiny mopeds, that the army was placed on standby to form a mass cordon around the channel coast...Obviously they neednt have worried............now if they were riding bicycles festooned with onions,it could have been a different story.
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Onions are useful!
There is a big motorcycle autojumble in Kempton Park this weekend, could there be a carb there for this thing?
The MT1 was also fitted with a Gurtner carb.
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Being mean I suppose the obvious thing is to take it there and flog it to some passing Frog... :D
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Thank you for the list, we will be back in the UK late Wed this week, but the link is very useful.
I bet I will still have by little Terrot in 2019...
I'd go for 2119.
Kempton Park is in my experience a washout unless you want jap junk, modern repro british bits at silly prices, but there will be a couple of opportunist sellers of old french tat there as usual, go in disguise, they'll be looking out for you ::) Once they got a fish on the hook, they like to reel them in again ;D
I'm rather fond of onion soup, but I make my own and use English onions. I'm on an 'avoid anything French' crusade these days.
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Well, a year and more has gone!
Still have my little Terrot and it's back in the garage for some more fun.
I have replaced the ignition side of the magneto with a re-wired one from a specialist in France (78 Euro) as nobody could do it in the UK...
I now have a good spark that hurts if it grounds though your fingers....Timing is the factory spec of 5mm BTDC.
Back on the carb side.
It has spluttered repeatedly on the original carb (never done that before) the big Dellorto and even the little modern 50cc engine carb.
Best I've had is 3 seconds running.
Hoping to find a carb at the Nash show this weekend.
If anyone has a AMAL/AMAC type 903 carb, PLEASE contact me.
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Best I've had is 3 seconds running.
A spoonful of petrol (petroil) down the gullet gives at least 4 secs of running,
so that would suggest these carbs aren't too flash in the running dept. ?
However ...
Have you tried choking it in any fashion, cold engines don't generally like running at all without some.
Unless you flood it fearfully, and then give it a fistful of throttle.
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Once started, hold the tickler down and see what happens.
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Thank you both.
The carb I'm currently trying is a new 50cc 2 stroke Chinese carb. The original I have I think is just too worn on the emusion tube though the needle looks great. The piston in the body is a very good fit.
It has given more near-starts with the Chinese carb than any other I've tried.
This car has a sliding choke plate just like the original one does.
The float level is set so to just get fuel at the very top of the jet tube but not flooding over at all. Starting/kicking over on choke with a stone cold engine seems to do little, but here is a summary of today's efforts:
Tried various timing setting using the small new carb off a Chinese something or other, around 50cc engine.
It has never run or even popped or farted with this carb, but it now regularly fires on kicking the engine over and several times has run for over 8 seconds!
I tried 3mm BTDC and to 5MM BTDC, 5mm being the spec from Magneto France in the day.
Changing the timing makes no difference at all, so it is now at 5mm btdc.
I have changed the jet hole (there is only one jet) by soldering up the jet the carb came with and using my range of BOC gas nozzle cleaning wires to set the fine hole.
The finest is 0.36mm dia.
The engine is so very close to running correctly, just not close enough, but progress!
After these 'prolonged (8 seconds) runnings the plug is quite wet and oily. I am using a 25:1 mix, fuel is Shell 99 octane.
Fingers crossed for Sat at the bike show autojumble.
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After these 'prolonged (8 seconds) runnings the plug is quite wet and oily. I am using a 25:1 mix, fuel is Shell 99 octane.
Is there a drain plug in the crankcase, such that you could drain off any surplus fuel/oil mix lurking down there.
If it has a sumpful, it may be drowning ?
Have you tried giving it a fistful of throttle during these 8 second runs, ditto it may be drowning in fuel/oil,
and need a goodly dose of air to catch its breath.
Have you tried contacting Villiers Services, Villiers made quite a range of engines and just selecting a carb at random could be off anything.
I don't quite recall the entire jist of all this, have you inspected the condition of the crankcase seals.
If they admit bulk air, this could be a painful/ fruitless/endless quest ??
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Hello R, thank you for your post.
To give all the details:
1950 engine original to the bike.
Re-bored, new piston and rings. New crank seals but using modern lip seals instead of the felt ring. Both sides of the crank sealed.
Sump drain added (M6 bolt) and this has drained a lot of mixture recently...
Fresh plug.
New ignition side magneto bobbin just fitted, re-wound in France. New points set at 0.4mm (as spec). New engine gaskets.
Engine was fully stripped to bare parts, everything cleaned esp the cylinder ports, all are clear.
All the attempts recently are without the exhaust system. Engine previously has run briefly with silencer on.
Silencer new from Villiers Services who are 5 miles away from me.
I have now compression and sparks and recent bursts of running (for a few seconds) prove fuel to be getting in.
After all runs the plug is soaking wet.
I have 3 carbs.
The original that is clean and all passages are clear, piston is a good sliding fit. Jets are original and to factory spec of the period. Jet tube looks a bit worn, needle looks good.
The second is a cheap new Chinese 2 stroke carb sold for cheap dirt bikes of 50 to 80cc modern engines, so thought to be 'suitable' substitute.
Third carb is a Dellorto rip-off from China. It's throttle dimensions are very close to the original carb diameters.
The engine this week has briefly run on all 3 carbs!
Non have sustained running and when it does catch pulling and closing the piston quickly does very little and seems to kill the running.
Last year I managed some minutes of running on the Dellorto but starting was very random and the engine (hot) would not re-start. The engine would not restart that day or several days after!
I am no stranger to these mechanisc, I have restored cars and bikes for 45 years, but this one refuses to get going.
Close to throwing it away (again) and putting it down to experience, but hate being beaten.
There is something fundamentally wrong here, just can't find it.
On the ignition side, the timing is 5mm BTDC (to spec) and I've tried 3mm btdc and makes no difference.
Villiers Services refuse to help me.
A long time ago: Original car fitted.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdN0pGPt/P1060022.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Dellorto carb fitted:
(https://i.postimg.cc/L6c716V7/P1060414.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Do we really need it all again?
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Don't be hard on him. read through it all again, it's better than Mogadon. ::)
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I applaud your persistence and would like to read of you getting it running.
If your saying the plug is wet after the short burst of firing, could the mixture be too rich and just drowning the engine?
Keep going, your nearly there.
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So you have an original carb ?
What is the current status of that.
I'd comment that swapping to other carbs was/is entirely a matter of suck-it-and-see,
and makes you appreciate how well most original carb setups were set up !!
Do any of these carbs have a needle, that you can lower ?
As too much fuel suggests ...
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Yes, the original carb was shot when I first had the bike. I made a new piston from brass and the fit is great. The body was US cleaned and then the drillings cleaned out (some were blocked) using my old BOC gas welding nozzle cleaners. I am sure it is clean.
The needle can be moved , about +/- 2mm just as the float can be.
The float is set so the fuel just starts to come over the jet tube (that the needle runs in) so there is a wet puddle in the bottom of the carb but not flooding into the engine. The intake is horizontal.
The wet plug suggests gross flooding after a short run burst so I expect the fuel air ratio to be incorrect.
However, the jets are the right numbers for the car on this bike, there is a surprising amount of info on the net if you dig really deep.
So, clean clear original carb.
Float correctly set.
Needle at half way height
Jets to factory spec
Flooding.
This might mean the internal dia of the jet tube is worn large so too much fuel will come up from the base and flood any control the needle is trying to meter?
The design of the main jet and the tube it screws into is a bit odd as there are 2 factory cross drillings that allow fuel from the float bowl to flood up the side of the needle so there is a big pool of fuel which the jet is in too.
Sorry, difficult to put into words, but all this is factory spec. so the bike was sold this way.
The carb is an AMAL/AMAC 903 design made in France under license from UK AMAL. There is a good cross-section drg of the carb on Google. AMAL UK have no understanding of this carb and have no info on it at all.
Finally, I'm sorry to re-gurgitate this thread and the same issue which annoyed some a year ago and made me stop the thread while I then wheeled the thing to the shed for about a year.
I cannot get anywhere on the French Terrot Forum, nobody likes this design of bike as it is not seen as a classic 'real' bike there, but I simply am seeking some experienced help from people who know far more than I about these things.
I did a 175 1963 Lambretta a few years ago and that ran great! similar engine but a nice Dellorto carb.
I'll try any suggestions any might have.
I feel this bike is very close to running and starting reliably, light at the end of the tunnel!
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Drop the fuel level, and see what happens ?
Thats sounds too high if it was any common amal ....
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Thank you, will try that, I think I can drop or raise the float needle about 3mm.
Off now to the Nash bike show in Stafford to find a near NOS carb for £10...... :)
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Well, the show was...interesting.
3 miles car queue to get in, same to buy a ticket, 1/2 hour to pass through the tunnel to the show.
4 French bikes there, no bits, coffee @£3.50, £16 in...won't bother again.
In a grump, came home to try the float level and needle level tricks.
Absolutely no difference whatever combo I tried, engine just gets flooded without any choke.
Lower crank case floods (thank goodness I put the drain bolt in there) about a thimble full of black petroil drains out and I think most gets there from a flooded combustion chamber and the fuel flowing from the carb straight into the barrel.
Knackered having kicked the thing about 100 times in all this, so I think I will just leave it outside and hope it gets nicked.
Just to shock you ALL I did actually fit another engine to the bike! A modern 50cc 4 stroke, pull start and centrifugal clutch so twist n go.
Have actually ridden the bike like this just up the road.
Suffers from a Chinese clutch, ie it doesn't fit so it has a lot of clutch slip so difficult to ride up a steep incline but the bike actually gets down the road nicely, brakes are really good.
Might work better when the clutch is bedded in?
Here it is:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rm7Tj6Sn/P1080013.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RVXsx7Y9/P1080007.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Oh come on,
4 French bikes there, no bits,
were you really surprised?
French stuff like yours is a very niche interest,as you say the frogs don't like them either, a hint perhaps?
Mind you it might be because you are a Brit, they mostly dislike us and right now are having a sulk.
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Chatted to one UK dealer who had some nice bikes and 3 classic pre '50 French bikes, all small capacity.
Told him of my Terrot and looking for a carb.
He said good luck, and the French have cottoned-on to the British taking the old stuff from dusty barns etc.
Prices have soared, the £ has shrunk so the French Thing has all but died.
Had a shower and a think.
This engine is still flooding no matter what so the actions to weaken are having no effect, so the flooding is well beyond those adjustments to control.
I can only think that the inside diameter of the nozzle/tube is far to big or worn. The piston in the carb when I first stripped it had been attacked with a file and was a great barrel shape rather than a cylinder, hence my repair.
I will strip the new Dellorto and see what the needle dia is and the nozzle diameter to determine a typical relationship between the two and compare it to the diameters in this original carb.
Maybe the inside dia of the nozzle is simply too big and fuel just floods in no matter what when the engine cycles.
Don't know what else to try. If it seems too large I can machine a thin tube to go inside the nozzle sleeving down that diameter and maybe restoring the 'throttling' of the fuel flow according to the position of the needle taper.
That will be a task on my trusty lathe tomorrow for sure.
The needle is 2.6mm dia so maybe a 3mm hole would be right.
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Just fit a Villiers engine,and be done with it,
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That'd look the part especially a 6E or similar, but there's always the engine from a CD200 if you fancy a twin, or a CG125 for a small single.
Then there's those Chinese jobbies on Ebay, Hongshu, Hongdu, something like that?
If you don't hack the frame the mod would be reversible, and at least you'd get some use out of it to recoup some of the money you're clearly spent on it.
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Plenty French makes used Villiers engines.
then you can sell it to some mug as "rare"
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I cannot get anywhere on the French Terrot Forum, nobody likes this design of bike as it is not seen as a classic 'real' bike there, but I simply am seeking some experienced help from people who know far more than I about these things.
Are you serious ??
Are you talking about this subject ?
https://500rgas.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=1735&p=35100&hilit=MT1#p35100
Maybe that one ?
http://terrot.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19164&hilit=MT1
It's been a pleasure, trying helping you !!
When I see the way you're talking about French.
Hopefully, we are not doing the same with English .... just a question of respect
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/respect
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Jean, I did not mean any disrespect, but the help dried up and I could not get further.
I had hoped that the French enthusiasts could help being a national bike; very few here have heard of Terrot let alone an MT1.
I feel that people have lost interest, and me very soon, this problem seems un-resolvable with my understanding and what I have to use.
As to the engine swap to Villiers, the small Villiers engines are very rare or all put away by others, and I feel the frame would need to be cut to fit one. The original engine is very compact.
I looked at the Chinese Honda look-alike engines, but at £400 too much and it may not fit, too great a risk. Doubt the brakes would survive.
Sorry for any upset.
I'll trouble nobody further on this or any other forum.
Thank you for all the help.
Graham.
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Oh come on,4 French bikes there, no bits,
were you really surprised?
French stuff like yours is a very niche interest,as you say the frogs don't like them either, a hint perhaps?
Mind you it might be because you are a Brit, they mostly dislike us and right now are having a sulk.
Maybe my English is not good enough and I misunderstood something .....
If you take time to have a real look on "Frog's forum", you will see that 100 and 125 cc represent more than 50% of the subjects.
Now If you give up with a simple 2 strokes engine, what should I've done when spending 3 years on my 500 JAP from 1930.
Do you think it has been easy to find parts ?
I had to search all over the world !
Help from English clubs or manufacturers ... ? In your dreams!
I bought the piston almost the price of your 100cc .....
And If you imagine that it started at the first time, I can tell you the engine compression is not the same than yours !
I must be completely mad because now it's almost finished, I've found a 500 Blackburne from 1929 .... and, for sure, it will be worse.
Ok your motorcycle is a Terrot, and what ?? a 2 strokes engine works the same way independently of the manufacturer.
Regarding the carb, plenty people in France replaces them by Dellorto.
Honestly I wouldn't do it but why not, if it's the way to have it working ?
But please, forget your Villier ou Chinese scrap.
Move your ass, restart from the beginning, check everything and finish it properly !!
And If I have to find you a $%^&&ing carburetor, I will do it.
PS : I didn't take time to read this subject from the beginning but I'm going to do it.
Because, when I read Mini-me "mechanical literature" the level seems not to be very high ... which is logic compare to the pseudo.
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Well then, Jean -Luc find the man a fekking carb, because he is getting fek all help from your side so far.
I also found a distinct lack of help as a member of Motobecane club de france, [I had 3 Z series,] just getting an answer even when I wrote in french was a problem.
Likewise, getting a reply to an advert, was negative. Considering the help I had given to French owners of british bikes over the years the lack of reciprocal good will was outstanding.
moi-même je ne visite plus l'hexagone.
A bientot.
PS there are 23 pages of this man's struggle with this bike, why did you not step in earlier with an offer of help or advice? As for the comments about your JAP/Blackburne parts it is a common misconception that the UK is awash with parts for older bikes, it not, nor are they cheap for anyone.
Over the years I have shipped bike parts to France Spain Italy Germany and other places, none of them paid any more than the same price I charged here.
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Ok everything is said ?
Sorry for the 23 pages before but I had a look and found really interesting informations !
Like some guys in the discussion, I would be surprised that the problem comes from the carb, but anyway.
It was possible to have these motorcycle with an Amac 903/165 or a Gurtner R17.
Gurtner are more easy to find.
But, for information, it's possible to find parts, if needed, for Amac : http://www.carburologue82.fr/64-t-903913923933943-r1-r2
On another hand, Graham, have you tried contacting people who restored the same motorcycle to get proper information ?
(timing adjustement, type of seals, ....)
http://www.breizhmotoancienne.com/2015/11/restauration-motorette-terrot-100-de1951.html for example.
One guy knowing perfectly this kind of motorcycle : Charlie ( charlie.amk(at)gmail.com )
He did already several of them.
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I have to say that when I had my pre-war Monet-Goyon getting anyone to answer simple questions on the M-G forum was hard work. It was almost as if the French resented a foreigner having a part of their motorcycling heritage.
Not a problem now though, as it's long-since returned home, but it was a charming bike.
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Don't forget that a lot of people in France are not speaking English especially "old" ones .....
Most of the guys knowing and interested in these pieces of scrap (like my wife uses to say) are not young fellows.
On top of that, most of the time, people not speaking French are using google translate, and when talking about technical things, translation is shit !!!
Very often, impossible to understand.
After, yes, like everywhere, you will find good and stupid people ........
Some of the forums have "bad" reputation, even in France.
That's why on my forum (originally Terrot) I've created an "other brand" section.
And when discussing in English or Spanish, I'm trying to do my best .......
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As a fan of french pre war motorcycles, I can appreciate the advanced engineering ideas they had, even if they were not totally successful in practice .
In France I was several times told my technical French was better than my everyday French. I subscribed for over 10 yrs to nearly all the French bike magazines.
I took the trouble to learn, however, it was always something of a joke in French cours du soir here,that the best way to ascertain if a french person spoke english was to ask a question in your worst French where you would almost inevitably get a response in very good English, in order to show the superiority of French education [can't argue with that]. I have several found this to be the case. A useful ruse at times.
I did tell this fellow here that it would have been cheaper and easier to take the bike back to France and find someone there to fix it.
The fact is French bikes apart from Velosolex and Mobylette were never imported here, despite that there are always some first timers asking for spares and manuals in english . You just cannot help some folk.
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I forgot telling you ...
If you are searching for parts for 1940/50's Terrot, contact Kristoffer : terrotspareparts (at) outlook.com
He's living in Sweden but found an old stock in Norway.
He has hundreds of parts !!!!!
He's sorted them by original part numbers (http://terrot.club.pyreneen.free.fr/basse_resol/pieces-detachees/100/mt1/htm-0001.htm)
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1930s Terrots were very good bikes, robust and good looking, I had an HST once,years ago.
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Another address where to find 100 and 125cc Terrot parts : patrice.gerard199 (at) orange.fr
Even if he's selling parts for many years already, he's still having a lot !!!
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Someone else told me this was still going on..
I have asked Kristoff several times for parts he may have, always helpful, but he does not have a carb, sold the last one to a Brit!
I will email Charlie and see if he can understand me firstly, and if so, if he can help.
I have spent even more hours on this engine.
The engine now fires quite reliably. This is with the original AMAC carb, a rebuilt magneto ignition coil from France and a lot of luck.
It will even run for about a minute and get hot until it simply dies.
Checking the plug and it has ranged from VERY oily-wet to wet, and the crank case has a good level of mixture in it too..
In this state it runs 'heavy' and will not respond to open/closing the throttle.
To get to this level I have endlessly set/reset the needle and float levels, the timing is 5mm BTDC.
Today I managed to get the plug to be black but dry for the very first time ever, and no residue in the case. The case has a drain which I think Mini Me advised to add from his Bantam days.
I have capped the top of the jet tube which was worn oval and re-drilled the hole that the needle passes through. I started with 2mm dia and it is now closer to 3mm.
The needle is 2.4mm Dia.
The float is 2 clicks up in the 6 available from lowest level. The fuel puddle is 'just' at the top of the carb body base and will 'just' dribble from the open port by the filter.
Moving the float by a click seems to do little.
Thus, still so close but so far.
Cannot yet understand why the engine will not respond to the up/down of the carb piston/needle (ie the twist grip action of tick over to full throttle).
I need to move the needle position in finer steps to try to get the right mixture. Don't know what else to try.
Magneto France say 5mm BTDC and I've tried the engine at anything from 0 mm (TDC) to 6mm BTDC and it seems to make no difference.
Clutching at anything else, but I feel the primary compression is weakened, but the east starting would not happen if the primary comp was too weak?
I will now go back to the
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Hi'
I still believe the fuel level is too high, maybe 2mm below venturi would be nearer the ideal
Does the carb have a pilot circuit? I cannot remember and I.m not going to re read all the pages ::)
In more modern carbs the needle virtually closes off the fuel at low throttle positions and the mixture is provided by the pilot circuit,
I started with 2mm dia and it is now closer to 3mm.
The needle is 2.4mm Dia.
If that was the case the throttle slide and needle would not close to the bottom ???
If the thickest part of the needle is 2.4mm I would guess the needle jet should be about 2.5mm
John
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Thank you John for your reply.
I have been through a lot of needles from other carbs, and one was smaller than the 2mm dill I had so started there.
The jet is now about 2.8mm dia, hard to measure, and has been needle-filed-out to that size.
Currently have the original needle in @ 2.58mm so the clearance is far more than 0.1mm by diameter.
Hard to change these jet diameters with what I have to hand.
I will try setting the float to such a 'depth' but I think the clip will not be in one of the float needle groves, but can cut a new grove.
Here is a picture of the carb; there is no pilot jet. The engine cuts when the throttle is fully closed off.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfpnpJQn/P1080128.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Well, tried the float level again in all the designed position and 2 new groves.
No improvement, if anything, worse starting.
Have contacted the carb spares place suggested by Jean.
They show a main jet and jet tube for the AMAC 903-165 but no needle.
Have asked them if they have a needle, jet tube and jet.
Hope they have all 3 parts. Quite cheap if they have.
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(https://blog.britishmuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/xThe-Scream-blog-featured-crop.jpg.pagespeed.ic.tTyWGil1v4.jpg)
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Ha!
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d2/36/55/d23655c9888379923885488c69ca00ff.jpg)
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What success?
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All this reminds me of a scene some sixty years ago ,me and my brother used to go round a friends place ,and tinker with a little non descript 100cc bike ,not a Villiers ,dunno what it was........anyway ,we would get it going and run it around the streets ........only for a while ,because the flywheel keyway was flogged half way round the shaft,and when the timing shifted it would stop....till next time..........I had a monumental buster on it ,onlookers say it cartwheeled,all I know is I ripped the insides out of both knees,and skinned my arms very thoroughly...........I have hated little two stroke bikes ever since.
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Ha!
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d2/36/55/d23655c9888379923885488c69ca00ff.jpg)
Sane folk describe it as pissing into the wind.
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But it sums up my position!
Awaiting a response from carburologue.fr about parts for the 903 carb, namely, do they have new needle, jet, main jet and piston chanber top, but notice the real difference of the jet they have in stock and my carb's jet, really different..
The jet in the carb now has 2 machined flats that allow fuel from the bowl feed to flood past the actual main jet, up the sides and into the volume just under the top of the jet neck sort of by-passing the screwed-in main jet.
The new one does not seem to have these 2 cut-out slots...
(http://www.carburologue82.fr/538-pos_product/913106.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/2S52bV1D/P1080128.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Seems Carburologue do not have parts (that I need) for the 903 AMAC carbs.
This carb must be worth £1,000,000 as it is the only one in existence.
I think I need to re-group and focus on the new Dellorto carb I have (Chinese rip-off) and have found a source for different size jets for £3.28!
This engine has run for a good time just 3 times after a lot of kicking about 2 years ago (lost count) and the engine then throttled well.
The coil was the old one and the points the originals with new contacts, so the rest of the engine now spruced-up, the starting might be ok..
Doubt it, but this may be down to mixture.
The new jets will give me some adjustment that might give me a fighting chance.
Everything is new and some others have fitted them with success.
In the meantime, somebody else is sending me a lawn mower carb to try!
A running engine will be a nice Xmas present.
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tried a BSA bantam carb on it? Looks very similar.
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Yes, I looked closely at the Bantams at the National Classic Car Show where the Bantam Club had a big display.
The D! (first Bantam?) has a carb really similar to this AMAC 903.
Can't find one yet.
Have found a supply of jets for the Dellorto and they are on the way, and today had the thing running (!) but still too rich and very poor response to the throttle.
The needle has its clip right at the top so the needle is DEEP down in the jet tube. I've been moving the clip up and up by 1mm for several goes and then the float up and down its needle.
After the engine dies I remove the plug, it is always wet or certainly damp and black and at the same time remove the sump drain (that you told me to fit) and now just a small drop or 3 of petroil comes out. I can't get it dryer.
Will try a smaller hole in the top of the jet tube to create a smaller aulas than I have. This will weaken the mix further I think.
I have the lawn mower carb coming soon....
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Not trying to teach your grandma about eggs here, but carbs have precision drillings, jets and needles, and hit-and-miss experimentation with sizes etc probably isn't going to be conclusive.
What is certain is that the engine is running far too rich, so I would suggest either a complete carb (Bantam, Villiers etc) appropriate to the engine size. There's too many variables in your situation now.
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Rex, totally agree.
The Dellorto is the closest new carb I could find with nearly thesamechoke diameters as the original..
It has not performed.
I have closed the Dellorto's main jet to close to the originals but do not have the very fine drills required, so have to experiment to try to refine things, which I am trying to do here.
I can reduce the hole dia in the top of the needle tube quite readily in the original.
The jets coming for the Dellorto will allow me to change the jet with accuracy, so fingers crossed.
I am surprised how rare these AMAC carbs are considering they were used in quantity on many bikes in right and left hand configurations etc.
No spares, no ebay wonders, nothing at all.
Toget this done I have to try different things with what I have.
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I have left a loaded revolver on your desk, now go and do the decent and honourable thing.
Man up, and get it over with.
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What with this on here and Money for nothing on the telly it really is a depressing afternoon.
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It's not in your garage, you are the lucky one!
Got a plan for tomorrow to weaken the mix, maybe I can get the plug actually dry and pale which will be a first.
Got to crack it so to move on to the next French Folly, but I won't put that saga on this forum; see, told you you were the lucky one.
Mini: if I can't get this thing to fire properly, I'll never fire a gun.
Anyway, instead of getting rid of me and hence the bike, find me a solution!
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find me a solution!
# Buy a boat
# buy a long length of chain
#attach chain to terrot.
# you have an excellent anchor.
failing that donate it to the Green Party,after all it uses no fuel. ;D ;D ;D
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Been lot said no, they have read this thread and we're still recovering...
Tried to weaken the carb this morning.
No success despite the needle to jet diameters being almost the same!
Changed the needle position, changed the float position all to no avail.
Goodness knows how to make the mixture the correct ratio.
Awaiting the Dellorto jets so I can try that carb.
What fun, soooo very satisfying.
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I seem to remember the JAP twostroke motor on a Ransome lawnmower had the same carby,or one very like it...........although its funny a cheapo Victa mower will run with a floatless plastic carby that clips together ,no screws,but a proper piece of engineering wont work in the least.
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Time will tell John!
Jets arrived 30 mins ago, so off to see if the Dellorto can be persuaded to work.
Surprised nobody has suggested the final resolution idea for this 'Worthless French Article' and that is to go electric.
I nearly did this before trying the 50cc push bike motor conversion that is in the bike now, and if the centrifugal clutch stopped slipping (common issue on these) then I would not be pestering you all.
My thought was to fit the 50cc 4 stroke and sell the bike as a motorsport Paddock Bike, so popular in historic meeting today.
Pulling an electric conversion together was quite complex, but only due to getting the right mix of 48 volt parts which would give about 30mph (remember these brakes) and a range of around 30 mins, so about 1.5 hours of country riding.
This bike lends itself to this, a motor in the place of the engine, batteries atop the panier frame and speed controller under the tank.
Lots of satin paint and some deceiving aluminium parts to kid the first glance.
Still saleable as a bike or a paddock bike.
Cost would be about £300 all done.
Any polite comments?
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKkH9XTY/P1080004.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Yes, I just think you're a serial poster/keyboard warrior - call it what you will.
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I am simply trying to get to the bottom of this problem. I feel there are many who are far far wiser than I about this subject that I am tapping into to help.
Just noticed about 43,000 views so it must interest a few.
The jets have been a bit disappointing, the smallest being 0.7 which I believe to be simply the metric size, 0.7mm.
The jet dia in the original carb is approx. 0.48 or 0.5, hard to measure with the wires I have.
It did however fire and run for a short time, again with little throttle response and a wet plug, but not flooded, after it self-stopped. The needle is in the weakest position.
I have ordered some drills of the right sizes. By soldering up the jet hole I can drill the jet to a size closer to the original.
The engine fires quickly though from cold with a good spray of Easy Start. Previously, it has never had any effect.
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Over two years on the same problem and you bat back every suggestion. I stand by my remarks. Your entertainment would come to an abrupt halt if you sorted the problem.
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But what have I batted-back?
What have I missed?
If you will list them I can maybe move forward.
Yes, 2 years have gone by.
This topic is not my primary interest, just something to try. I do not give in easily on anything I take on, but it would be good to finish this, I have other things to do.
If the solution is simple, let it be detailed.
If anyone finds this protracted thread irritating etc, then simply do not watch it, it is not compulsory to do so.
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I like your idea of the modern engine, but I am still interested for you to find the answer as to why it wont go as everything I would have done has not produced results. I will keep watching to see what you find.
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HI Again
Main jet size will not affect starting or slow running they only affect approx 3/4 to full throttle
the engine should start on more or less any carb that will run another engine
If not there is some other problem
Way back I suggested wiring up a battery and coil ignition system using the existing contact breaker
Did you try a known good capacitor? New old ones cannot be relied on
Another idea might be to try a currently available version of the "atom" ignition module that bypasses points and capacitor
https://pickersyard.weebly.com/atom-universal-electronic-ignition-module.html
Assuming there is plenty lube inside the engine? try running it for a few minutes on gas from a propane blowlamp
pointed into the carb inlet
(do not light the blowlamp ::) or it might be an end to all your woes)
John
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Thank you both.
Yes, I recall your ignition suggestion and I did it!
The capacitor is a new one, well, a year older now, but fresh.
I have also tried fuel for a petrol powered chain saw that is more than 100 octane, didn't start at all!
I have thinned out the oil to 30:1 which is quite weak, BUT...
When the engine get flooded by the rich mix the lower case starts to fill. After each run it makes (about 45 seconds) I remove the plug and wash the wet mix off using a shot of brake cleaner aerosol. I also remove the lower drain and the mix will trickle out (or pour out) and it is always black. Never clear or green like the fuel supply.
I either have a VERY clean crank or the primary seals have dissolved/are dissolving.
This will be my next check while waiting for the drills to arrive late next week.
I can pressurise the lower case via the inlet and listen for hissing.
If the lower compression is weak then I have another problem.
Having said this, it would not affect the mixture but would effect the draw through the carb.
Murdo: indeed, it is a nut to be cracked and I'm trying as hard as I might. My enthusiasm waxes and wains as I'm sure you all understand.
Have to walk away at times or that blow torch will be used to full effect.
:o
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You mention black staining in the drain fuel......it does sound like the seals are dissolving.This would not surprise me ,as modern unleaded does have many constituents in common with older type paint thinners.Not running on aerostart is pretty indicative ,IMHO.My old chainsaws are impossible to start after sitting for years,but a good spray of aerostart ,they fire up ,and the added suction pulls any oil blocking the jets out,and away they go in a cloud of smoke....The newer saw I bought to compensate for my advancing years had a very big warning about fuel,no alcohol,and be sure to drain the tank and then run the motor dry while still hot,no matter what fuel is used......I know of an Ariel Leader engine rebuild where new seals were found to have cracked after the performance went right off in a short time...........but didnt the Terrot have metal face seals?.like a Scott.
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Seals are somewhat colour coded as to material ,for instance dark brown is fluorocarbon.
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Yes John, and I modified the case to take Lambretta case seals, lip type as used in car crankshafts etc.
Still suspect them though.
The original seals were a felt disc on the clutch side and a plane sleeve with a deep spiral grove machined in such that crank rotation 'screwed' the oil back to the case innards.
Crank bearing wear saw that sleeve worn oval, so no seal.
I'll strip the engine down, I've made all the tools to hold this and that so no big deal, remaking the gaskets is a pain.
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Pre-war simple two strokes often used to rely on a nice thick 20:1 petroil ratio to achieve crankcase sealing when designed with those long main bearings, so don't lean it out too much.
I've never heard of modern lip seals being affected by ethanol.
Rather cataclysmic for two-strokes if it is the case.
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The seals should be good, I will try to get some air into the bottom of the engine, it can only come out of the 2 seals or the piston rings.
Not sure what pressure to use, but will try 10 psi.
After that I will remove the head and cylinder, v easy, and pour some thinners down into the case and see if there is a flood out of the crank seals.
If tight then the seal of the case is a red-herring.
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Strikes me the seals are all ok after some simple pressure tests.
I looked into tuning Dellorto carbs, bike carbs and they say to find a starting jet size you simply take the choke diameter (18mm in my case) and x by 5. Thus '90'
You then compensate for sea level, so where I am the compensation is '0.9'
Thus the starting jet size is #81
The jets I have are all # 74 to 98 so tried a #80 with a rich needle position.
It started and ran badly, but the plug was not soaking wet and the case was not full of fuel, but had a trickle.
There was some degree of throttle response and the engine nearly idled (this carb has a pilot jet).
So, instead of weakening the carb by jet size I've opened it up from #48 to #80.
Still some more trial and error to go, but I hope to find a sweet spot.
The 'x 5' multiplier ignores filter restriction etc so it a simple starting point.
The super fine drills arrived today, so that may help.
Try to find time tomorrow to tweek it.
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The trials with the new Dellorto jets continues, and I seem to have a black damp plug so far, but with 'easy' starting (ish) so some more tuning required when time allows, but a thought occurred to me about the plug.
I know nothing/little about the heat ranges of plugs, but know the wrong heat can cause issues.
Thus anyone know which plug might burn better in this engine?
The new plug I have used came from Villiers Services, for this engine as their 'best guess'.
The code is Champion L82C.
I wonder if a different heat range might give a better burn?
The original plug still works:
Code is KLG Corunoite (KLG CL1)
Any thoughts please?
(https://i.postimg.cc/66mHn3Wr/DSC0037.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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That replacement looks like a pretty fair choice.
Spark plugs back then weren't nearly as fussy as to the heat range as these days
- one or 2 heat ranges covered about everything !
I see some CL1 plugs at an auction in Corunna Indiana. Hmmm. Is that a clue to Corunoite, or a complete coincidence ??
https://s3.us-west-1.wasabisys.com/ebayassets/items_images/163143453941/$_57.JPG_5b4dd78ae41a84.88030634.jpg (https://s3.us-west-1.wasabisys.com/ebayassets/items_images/163143453941/$_57.JPG_5b4dd78ae41a84.88030634.jpg)
The fact that you can play with the jetting and things improve suggests that you are on the right track,
no magical spark plug is going to suddenly burn twice as much fuel as it should be dealing with ??!
Having said that, I notice that those CL1 have a slightly projecting nose - doesn't that make them more resistant to not fouling ?
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Seems to me you need a much much hotter plug, older plugs, KLG, Lodge etc suit older bikes much better,also the shite that is sold as fuel these days seems to mess plugs up, I have heard that new plugs once sooty glazed like those cannot be revived like they used to be.
Are you using ethenol free petrol, or have you considered removing the filthy stuff? The fuel it was originally meant to run on was pretty poor post war low octane jungle juice.
'best guess'.
..yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssss,........... more likely thats all they had to sell you. Check out Green Spark Plug co and see what they have on offer
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Thank you both.
There is a big (French) data pile of paper on the Terrot site on Terrot plug types that will need some time for me to digest given on another site on this topic, but it seems there may be something better to try
NGK BH7V
However, the '7' is the equivalent to the Champion '8' that is the plug from Villiers Services.
On the Champ plugs, the higher the number the hotter the plug, so will try to find, say, a '10' numbered plug.
I know this will not be a magic moment, but " every little helps" comes to mind.
Hope to get some time this weekend to carry on with the jets and needle fine tuning to try to get a dry plug and crank case and a start without Easy-Start assist.
The fuel I use is Shell V Max, 99 octane and the ethanol content is quite low compared to their ordinary petrol.
I have a weak oil content, 30:1 where Villiers oil ratio should be 20:1, but I doubt that affects the running, just the risk of seizing....
Another thought is I am doing all this without an exhaust pipe/silencer on the engine, but again, doubt that will make any difference at this stage.....or does it?
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I know from mower engines they seem to run OK with an open port,although theoretically a performance stroker does need an exhaust pipe at least.,and preferably an expansion chamber.......And the other point I made at the start.....can you feel a pop and a pulse of air from the transfer ports when the head is off.......I still suspect the piston may not be right for the engine,and port timing may be astray........i doubt spark plug heat range is any issue at this stage ,as the plug hasnt got hot.
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Another thought is I am doing all this without an exhaust pipe/silencer on the engine, but again, doubt that will make any difference at this stage.....or does it?
Aaaah, you didn't mention that.
We played with a lawnmower engine in a gocart, and without the muffler arrangement AND the aircleaner it was totally useless,
would never run for more than a few seconds. Once that was established, a variety of such devices could be tried,
the length of such things seemed to be more important than the actual form of them.
This may not apply to a Terrot, but you don't know until you try.....
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Thank you both.
I'll pop the system back on.
The bike, fully 'dressed' never ran a year ago, but that was without the new ignition coil.
There is no filter to the original carb. just a baffle disc.
There is a distinct 'chuffing' with the plug out when you turn the engine over by hand using the kick start lever.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5vqRp1M/DSC0126.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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find a clean crappy old 1950s plug thats as hot as possible and try that, your engine will not be overfussy.
A cautionary tale, I run a 30yr old Peugeot, thought I'd buck up the reluctant starting and went to buy some of those expensive Iridium plugs, don't waste your money said the shop person. old engines really don't like them. Thats just 30 yrs old, not 60.
I have, as I said, heard similar about classic bike use of them.
I have long maintained that trying to apply 2020 technology to a 1930s machine is a waste of time money and effort for usually no result. Except for the owners ego showing off to demonstrate their lack of real practical knowledge.
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Agree.
Fitted an expensive set in the 90's to my 1973 classic car. Crap.
Fitted normal Champion plugs, grade as per Haynes manual, ran perfectly for years, still have the car.
Tempted just to re-fit the original plug as in the picture. It will fire and run for a few seconds fine with it.
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Hi Terrot
If the engine has wetted that Champion it will be practically useless
In my misspent youth when all I could get my hands on were 2 smokes, you dare not venture far without a fistful of sparkplugs and a plug spanner
That was in the day when plug insulators were glazed and so cleanable not like the shite available nowadays
A dodge to try that helps keep the plug dry is to fit an even shorter threaded plug from a chainsaw or strimmer / hedge cutter
Yes fit the exhaust pipe too
a bundle of NOS Champions here (3/8 reach)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/vintage-champion-spark-plugs/123988529623?hash=item1cde4ad1d7:g:9UwAAOSwkARd3Bq7
John
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This engine should start reliably, but I take your point.
Always had a spare plug when I ran my Lambretta in the late 60's!
Even those engines started and ran well....
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Commuter bikes (of any sort) wouldn't sell many if they weren't basically kick and go. Always makes me laugh when I read about those strange people who cosset some old daily hack as if it was some thoroughbred.
No, your B31 doesn't need 500 mile oil changes.. ::)
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Indeed, this bike should be boring to use!
Bloody cold in the garage today, but tried a few things, all to no avail.
Full exhaust on with 2 stroke silencer, all new.
Fresh petrol and modern 2 stroke oil mixed to about 30:1.
No plugs at Halfords, so using the Champion plug I've used for years....
Engine starts, runs for a few seconds and dies. Best run today was 20 seconds.
Plug wet but drier than usual, but not dry just black/damp
This was with #84 jet where the Dellorto data says it should be an #90. Tried a #90 and it floods the plug.
Needle at max weakness position (clip at the top of the needle grooves).
So, absolutely no further forward with this comical situation and this engine.
Last shot is :
to go through all the jets again with the needle on mid-way height.
To re-fit the original carb and try with the silenced engine.
Then, I think I am at the end of all the options at my disposal.
Sell as a Starter/non-runner.
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Halfords?????????????????
FFS get a decent older plug thats is clean, if you can't find one pm me and i 'll find you one in my junk box.
i still think you are pissing up the wrong tree
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Then, I think I am at the end of all the options at my disposal.
You have barely got started !
(pun intended).
Ebay fr has loads of stuff, if you watch long enough ?
Wrong era, but the correct one is bound to come up. ?
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/carburateur-bronze-AMAC-4-012-Moto-Ancienne-TERROT-HST/223766974320
And a suitable lawnmower carb may be better than that Dellorto, which looks somewhat large ??
Small villiers carb preferably - obviously of the 2 stroke variety (4 stroke carbs hate 2 stroke applications)
Something similar off a lawnmower
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/yUMAAOSwfCpbGMy9/s-l1600.jpg
hopethishelps.
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P.S. A lot of 2 strokes are allergic to that open carb inlet.
Try a bit of plastic hose on it, at least 3 or 4 inches long
?
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Halfords: yep, local and easy and a hope for a 'hotter' plug, had to get some 2 stroke oil anyway.
Been on ebay France so many times, nothing. Never seen one on there for sale, AMAC 903-165.
The Gurtner equivalent are also rare, Terrot used both.
The original carb has a simple dished disc to cover the inlet, not a filter, just a stone/grit guard screwed right over the intake, the choke plate is housed behind it.
Starting, let alone running, is worse with the exhaust on.
Mini: quite possible I am up the wrong tree, but when any running simply wets the plug and part fills the case then far too much fuel is getting drawn in.
That fuel can only get in via the carb system.
With every 'suck' action too much fuel is drawn in hence the effort to stop that.
The case fills, the rich vapours get to the chamber and a spark fires it for a while until the dry plug I start with get flooded and stops the spark jumping across the plug.
About 10 to 20 seconds and it all happened. I have to wash the plug every time after it stops.
Please, what other tree is there to climb. The spark is like an arc welder striking (outside the engine) and I have compression.
On the multiple kicks you can feel the engine forcing on the kick when you 'edge' the engine to the compression stroke before pushing down.
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The motor is already mounted on a stand......I would hook up an electric motor with a V belt drive to the outside of the flywheel ,motor the little engine at about 500 rpm,and experiment with increasing the fuel supply from nil to full on via a tap in a mower tank.You could also rotate the terrot with a big electric drill ,but the drills generally have too much starting torque ..........never the less ,this is how I start my 8hp B&S on a rider mower ,since the recoil busted many years ago.This engine was also impossible to start manually,due to advanced wear in the carb,but a few seconds with the drill ,and we re off mowing.
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I do the same with a half inch drill and socket on the Villers 7F on my firewood saw bench. Could be pulling the rope for 20 minutes with only a few backfires for the trouble. Lot to be said for 'electric' start.
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I've tried the power drill start some time ago, but the compression of the engine was too much for the 240 volt drill and the armature started to really smoke!
It did not start.
I know of a young woman on YouTube with a Terrot MT1 with an identical Dellorto and it only starts by a good bump start!
Hope to get a good few hours on it tomorrow.
On YouTube there are videos of these engines starting with 1 kick, running and ticking over when warm!
All in France.
Maybe the bike is home sick....
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Hi
so using the Champion plug I've used for years....
FFS ::) go and buy some new plugs !!!
There must be a lawnmower shop nearby
John
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On YouTube there are videos of these engines starting with 1 kick, running and ticking over when warm!
All in France.
Ask in your best French (translation) if you can borrow their carb !?
(or if they have a good spare).
That would really sort out where the problem is.
You could take your engine on holiday as handluggage ?!
I agree you need a crate of new plugs.
We had a villiers lawnmower when I was a kid, and it was nothing but trouble.
A new spark plug was a total revelation, I was a convert
No more oiled plugs, no matter what you did...
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Been on ebay France so many times, nothing.
Pair of KLG CL1 plugs, new.
They are in Texas though.
And not entirely cheapish.
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Antique-Original-KLG-CL-1-Spark-Plugs-Original-Box-With-Paper/182444697458
Edit. There are also some CL3, at a more respectable price and closer to home.
Whether they are hotter or colder though ??
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/1-Bougie-ancienne-KLG-CL3-allumage-essence/263806668729
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Ok, in the interest of time, I will go back to Villiers Services as they are close to me and see if there is a 'better' plug and get a few nice new ones.
The original plug I still have and works (as in sparks) but that oils up just like the Champion.
Might be a welcomed thought, on another forum, someone who works on vintage cars recons it is down to the magneto but I have a new coil.
NOW:
I notice that the new coil (original core) 'just' kisses the outer magnets on the flywheel.
Not sure if this is bad news?
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Clearly it shouldn't touch, but didn't you say the spark was good until the plug wets?
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A new coil is useless without a good condenser and clean points.
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Just taking those 2 points...
Went to Villiers Services and had a long chat with the boss, quite shop, so had the time.
We went through the basics, and then did the same again!
Bought 2 hot plugs, one dimensionally the same as the original/Champion plugs, the other with a very extended tip.
Came away with a new condenser...
He winced when I said I had soft soldered a thin brass sheet base 'plate' to the new (from them) condenser in order to mount the condenser into the deep pocket of the magneto.
He thinks the heat might have 'ruined' the condenser, and he had seen this before, once.
He suggested I wire the new one outside the magneto with an extended lead which I can do, but have not yet tried (tomorrow's job). Might have to drill the case to get access.
So, I resumed battle.
Jetted the car (still the modern/new Dellorto) with an #85 and the needle at full depth (weak) and with the coolest of the hot plugs.
Started quite well, ran for some 1/2 a minute with a different note, still a heavy note and still little throttle response, but it did this with no choke (to start it).
Let the engine die as it was good and hot.
Removed the plug and it was DRY, bit dark and looked almost weak! Case was empty. NEVER had a dry plug with an empty case. Progress?
Containing my excitement, changed the plug to the hottest one with extended tip and checked the piston did not hit it!
One kick and it ran exactly the same and for the same time.
Removed the plug, and it was looking weak with a light shadow on it, dry case.
Richened the needle 4 groves and it made no difference to either plug performance.
Paused, and re-fitted the original carb, original jet etc. Changed nothing else.
The engine ran exactly as with the Dellorto which I was not expecting.
The running today of the engine has been visibly erratic and with the occasional flame back fire and the flywheel speed was changing at a constant throttle position (ie wide open).
Sometimes the carb would cough and shoot some fuel vapour out.
For one or two seconds the engine would find a 'sweet-spot' and sounded nice, then back to rough.
It must say something that a change of carb had no effect?
Condenser change tomorrow after some making of Xmas presents for the wife while she is out shopping!
Am I moving forward or just found another blind alley?
It all sounds ignition all of a sudden to me.
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you soldered to the condenser? :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
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Yes, but nearly 2 years ago, BUT I think I glued the base plate on, can't remember the, tomorrow will tell.
Still have the original, but will try the new one first....
Lol!
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If you have glued the base plate on it's likely are the glue is acting as an insulator and the condenser is not in circuit.
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DM:
Exactly!
Getting it apart this morning. Will post a picture.
At the time, or since, I couldn't find a new condenser with such a mounting.
Villiers suggested mounting the cond outside of the engine with a long wire to the connection and so earth the Cond on the engine.
Here is the mag whist I was stripping the engine down for the first time.
(https://i.postimg.cc/763NF1SK/DSC-0164.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Well...
Took the condenser out and the new one was glued by me to the aluminium base as per picture below.
I now remember from nearly 2 years ago I put a coil of copper wire between the alum base plate and the cond body to ground it all with a ring of araldite around the cond base.
Don't remember testing it for continuity.....too keen to get it all rebuilt, dreaming of this neat sharp French Folly cruising down the lanes with a light smoke trail after it.
So, rigged-up the new condenser from yesterday, a Wipac one with one lead, but got it all together and earthed to the motor outside of the case as suggested for trials by Villiers.
Got the fuel set up better, the medium hot plug in and set the flywheel to 5mm BTDC having checked the points for their 0.4mm gap. All cock-on.
Down on the floor with the rig and a small squirt of EasyStart for good measure.
2 kicks, nothing.
Another 2 and BRUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM the bloody thing started!
AND it ran, AND it throttled vroom, vroom vroom and all that stuff.
FFS it was working!
Stunned after a good minute I ran out of fuel!
Nipped the plug out, clean and slightly wet. Opened the sump drain and a very small trickle came out and stopped.
Felt the float was a bit high as neat fuel was over the carb (the original carb no less) so clicked that a few notches and re-tried the whole lot again.
Second kick, and Vrooom, vroom, vroom for ages, smooth for a 2 stroke and it ran on constant throttle as well as throttle tweeking, the rig skimming over the garage floor with the vibration and me standing on it along for the ride.
Fred Carnow's circus with a clown aboard!
What can I say, a chance conversation, a nudge on here too and the problem is SOLVED.
My stupid installation of a non standard condenser into an awkward space and that is all it was.
So, excitement cooling down as I type this, what is next?
Tidy the condenser installation into the magneto and try to fine tune the carb.
It does not like hot starting, so I hope that can be fixed by the fine tuning.
Some cosmetic work to make the motor look pretty again and then remove the 4 stroke 50cc engine and re-fit this one and get it all tidy.
My next problem I know will be will I want to sell it now I'm back in love with my French Fancy?
Once all done for Xmas I will get the Peugeot BIMA, 1952 into the garage, but I will get that engine going before I do ANYTHING else.
You will all be very happy I won't trouble you with my issues on that one!
Is this then the biggest classic motorcycle cock-up in the UK? LOL!
(https://i.postimg.cc/MTc6Xyyq/DSC0038.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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methinks thou art the author of thine own misfortunes.
All 29 pages of it...................................... ::) ::) ::) ::)
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Yep, dead right, cannot blame anyone else but me.
Maybe I should apologise to you all. ;)
Who would have thought this could be so exciting!
(https://i.postimg.cc/mDM3TP2k/P1050681.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)hosting image (https://postimages.org/)
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It's not exciting................... only to you perhaps ;D
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LOL! ;D
Yep, very sad of me. I bought it because I wanted a challenge.
The Honda CB 175 I did before with barely a hitch was easy, just keep on buying new bits from David Silver.
Lovely bike though.
The Lambretta before it was the same.
Maybe I should sell it as 'the alternative Bantam' and see if anyone is brave...
I'd like to say a big Thank You to you and all the others who have supported this quest even though the root cause of the problem was me.
Just WHAT will everyone do without this thriller? :o
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Just WHAT will everyone do without this thriller? :o
Oh, no fear, there will be another mug along soon enough.
why not get a decent brit bike project instead of all foreign tat?
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But I already have the Peugeot BIMA and registered it.
But British certainly is easier.
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Good job it appears to be finished finally, but the acid test is will it start and run as well, say,next Monday?
It seems that too many times I've thought I've cracked a problem only to find that it's still there a week later.
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Yes, fully understand!
I let it cool till cold (easy to do today...0 and it behaved the same, 2 kicks, no choke or easystart and fired and instantly ran, freely revving and super stable when on an even throttle.
Very little smoke for an old 2 stroke, but we shall see.
Must admit I was tempted to re-fit the original condenser, but made a simple L bracket to hold the new condenser to the mag back plate and all went well.
I could never be sure if my old Lambrettas would always start day by day, the points never seemed to stay gapped.
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very little smoke is admirable,but make sure you dont seize the little engine with too little oil....a lot of these things need close to 15/1 oil mix with the ultra thin oils now.Certainly not the 30/1 that modern power snippers and edgers run on.
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Even better, use SAE30 at the original (20:1?) ratio. If you're running a pre-war petroil 2 stroke and you have problems, it's the first question Villiers Services ask you.
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Why on earth didn't you do what Villiers Services suggested in the first place? Mind you, as said it's provided us with lots of interest....
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The 'middle' condenser came from them about 2 years ago when I thought I should replace all the original consumables, cond and points.
The points had to come from France, but the cond came with the plug and the re-magnetisation of the Flywheel as I tried to get a regular spark rather than a weak one irratically. The flywheel needed a re-mag.
The cond was the only one they had with a threaded post, but with no means of fixing it to the mag base plate.
I then made my fatal mistake. I'm not perfect, doubt anyone is, but I had a good spark.
So the saga started....all unknowingly self inflicted, all in the past now, and time to tidy it all up and wait until spring.
Next project is a moped 'classification' so I won't post on here to the relief of a great many, hardly a Classic motorcycle.
Having said that, over 43,000 views, so it must have been of some interest.
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Others have said this but it's worth repeating - 99% of carb problems are electrical and vice versa. I bought a non-running Enfield fixed by sorting out the shorted points, thereby benefiting financially from the PO's lack of electrical skills. Still, full marks to you for determination! Will it be for sale at Kempton on Saturday? By the way, it's Fred Karno, my great grandfather used to work for him.
REgards, Mark
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Full marks to you for bearing the piss taking with a sense of humour, unlike some before you who have gone off in a hissy fit and sullked.
Get shot of the other french thing and get a decent bike, at Shepton last week was a 1953 Norman with a 198cc Villiers with the one year only peculiar rear suspension, sold for around 500 quids, which pleased me as I was going to buy it but spent time working out a plausible reason for the missus as to why I bought another bike so was pipped to the post.
It was just the sort of thing you should be doing. or you could try an LE Velo :-X
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Yes..my spelling is flawed too!
Saw some nice 'projects' at Stafford Show a few months back, a Sun was v nice but another rare bird, so a bit un-nerving.
Would love a small AJS as they were made a stone throw away from me, but I like the light-weight bikes, that honda CB 175 was big enough for me.
I bought the Peugeot BIMA before the Terrot, the BIMA was put in the shed as I was not really sure about the pedal/moped manual engage drive design.
You have made me thing Mini, as usual, so will ponder if I could sell the UK registered BIMA.
The BIMA looks good enough to be an oily rag job, fresh tyres and tubes, brakes are simple to re-line and some fresh cables.
Engine is free, but not sure about the carb!
Still tempted to electric motor the thing by removing the engine and drive (4 bolts) and slipping in a 250W motor.
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/GvQAAOSwudBdSEpG/s-l1600.jpg
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Would love a small AJS as they were made a stone throw away from me, but I like the light-weight bikes.
Not the only one to like small bikes, I have quite a few cycle motors and NSU Quickly’s hidden away,plus a 250 Model 14 A.J.S awaiting restoration that I may never get to.
Still using a 1952 32cc Berini and a 1960 Quickly that we have owned for over 40 years.
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DM:
Good to read.
I normally work on classic cars and race cars as a past time, everying seems to need a hoist to move things, so these light bikes are refreshing.
The Terrot is light, but the BIMA is almost the weight of an old pushbike.
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Have you tried a decent sized old bike though? As a general rule I don't ride anything under 350 and even some of those can feel underpowered. Tiddlers clearly have their place but faced with a hill it's nice to just turn on the taps rather than struggle up at 10 MPH with a queue of Audis and BMs behind you.
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I decided not to return to bikes on the road a few years ago.
We have several ride out evenings round here, and the antics are scared if you are in the middle of them, super fast bikes aiming for anything that moves.
No wonder things get dangerous.
However, living right on the green belt locally is a chance for some easy miles, but I like these lightweight bikes just as winter projects, do them, sell them for a loss or at best break even, and start again on something different to the previous bike.
So far have done a Barlotti kart (Villers 9e), a Lambretta Series 3 TV 175 and the Honda CB 175 Super Sport, then this Terrot.
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Getting a bit ahead of myself here, BUT, where is/are the best places do you think to sell this Terrot (in the UK)?
I've sold all the other bikes I've done on classic car forums.
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Car and classic is good for quality stuff, very wide readership and free
Ebay is where the mugs are.
Key word for ebay are;....kool, retro, funky, old skool, bobber, chopper, hardtail, custom, Rare, investment classic, veteran [yes we know its not].
mix all those in with a good helping of pure nonsensical bullshit, Try to make it seem you know nothing at all about bikes. Use poor spelling and a bit of bad grammar. Address all enquires to 'Buddy.'
sorted, the world is your oyster son.
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Lol!
I used Car and Classics for all my past projects, all sold very quickly, but they were all popular machines.
I am always surprised how few have heard of Terrot, thus nobody goes looking for them!
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Nearly put a bid on a 1928 Terrot 175 on ebay, but thought better of it and it went for £1600, but a few too many parts missing. A 1950 bike is hard enough let alone a 1928..
Also spotted a 100cc Villiers engine Sun, 1954 with girder forks etc, lovely British light weight, but too similar to the MT1 I have.
So, got all the engine in, carb tweeked, lighting re-connected and a few other snags that needed doing and the Terrot MT1 is actually all done.
The carb top was badly stripped and the carb body was not much better, so found a new one in France for 9 Euro. Fitted great, but the threads on the body are too damaged for the top to stay in place, so forced to make a clamp bracket to hold it all together.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbsFCZX8/DSC0049.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMv2gG8N/DSC0046.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/wMfBs9JY/DSC0048.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Get it out the way and let's have a look at the 911...(or is it a 912?)
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Ha!
It is a 1973 911, bought it as a total wreck (see the road through the floor etc) in 1988 and re-built it top to bottom, all DIY, inc a conversion to RHD and painted in a single car garage.
I was young then!
Now on it's 3rd engine as I used to hill climb the car for 13 years. It has a 3.2 litre engine instead of the 2.4 litre, 240 bhp/tonne so quite nippy for an old classic.
It is truly a lovely thing and I (we) are very attached to it.
This kind of thing is actually my 'bag' not silly 2 strokes! :)
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbhvkJP6/IMG-0694.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Very nice too. Are those Cromodora wheels?
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No, original Porsche 'Cookie Cutters' by ATS, 15 x 7"
It is certainly more modified than standard. :)
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Nice little looking bike when it is all together.
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Murdo, you are right.
The model before 1950 had a twin port barrel, an exhaust pipe either side, and the looks are good from both sides, the non silencer side is a bit boring...
Thinking of getting some Indian made panniers to make it all a bit more interesting.
Many 50s bike have a good and boring side.
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FFS if the porch thing don't start, please use another forum. :o :o
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No danger, so please don't worry!
Done 4 Porsche flat 6's from the crank out, easy rebuilds!
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I have a huge member so I have never felt the need for such cars ;D
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Ha!
Lol, you have been reading too many magazines!
Anyway, found 2 more French Follies...very tempting...
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here, cheap french tat, but it four stroke and plenty spare and info.
See if he'd swap some old porch for it
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2862479157136161/
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Looks like Mr Rattlecan has been playing...
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That 'bike' is absurd at that price, indeed any price?
Some thoughts please:
Rene Gillet bikes. I've spotted one part restored but I cannot find any parts for them, the bike is 1949.
French ebay have a piston and a mag cover, that is it, and I thought Terrot parts were scarce....
The bike looks good, lots done that costs a lot but just bothered that I cannot find any parts, not even Chambrier have parts.
The engine is said to have good compression and sparks but has not run. It is with a well established French Follie supplier.
Will this be an even bigger mill stone?
The 'porch' is my advanced pension plan!
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I would have that that Motobecane very easy to do, loads of spares even on ebayfr, Motobecane club very active and one of them even posts on here from time to time.
I think you'll will find Gillet are a Belgian make
shame about the loony paint, i expect the painter thought it would be "kool".
You are not looking at the rigt bit of Chambrier I reckon
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'My' French fancies have all been sold to a French museum...
Looks like it will be the Peugeot BIMA as the next one.
Wife happy
classicmotorcycleforum relieved
Thanks for the lead mini, will look into them.
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Started the Terrot yesterday, fresh fuel and oil, washed the plug in brake cleaner.
Slipped the choke over and nothing, the kick start feel was very weak as if the plug was out, ie no compression.
After a pause for thought decided it was the clutch slipping so disconnected the cable and instantly had compression!
A few moves on the kickstart to get compression and a good stab down...
It only started and ran!
It also stopped when I closed the throttle fully.
Decided to sell the bike now it is ok, I want to do another Honda Twin.
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SOLD!
Just when it was running perfectly it sold. Lost a lot, learnt a lot, expanded my patience threshold, and sad to see it go.
It is going to the South of France to the buyer's Gite where the lanes are easy and a 2CV is a rare sight. Will be used to get the baguettes!
Nice to think of it back in rural France where it belongs.
The Honda cb175 K6 is due today.
So my French Connection finishes, quite a project.
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SOLD!
It is going to the South of France to the buyer's Gite where the lanes are easy and a 2CV is a rare sight. Will be used to get the baguettes!
Sounds like that romanticised view of France as typified by that awful John Thaw series "A year in Provence" of some years back. All that's missing is stripey shirts, a string of onions and a Gauloise hanging from the lip. ;)
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I admit to such a view, though Wolverhampton does not quite cut it.
I wont go further as this is the wrong section but out of interest, here is the Honda that arrived today and 'one I did earlier'
(https://i.postimg.cc/pVDmyPHd/DSC0070.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/LXq2fBwS/P1050144.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Is the latest one a US import? DK Autos maybe?
Only going by the good chrome on the rims etc.
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No, my new one is a UK bike from new, a '72 and the gold one I did 4 years back a '76 UK bike, hence the condition when I started which was rough on the gold one but it was totally complete and un-messed with. The blue one is the opposite!
Lots of missing parts, some very hard to find but DK's spares side is immense, you have to keep trawling the internet.
Many new parts are available too via David Silver.
The blue bike is good because it was won cheap, has new wheels/spokes/tyres and a new exhaust system
All in all £950 of parts
It is missing parts that will cost about £400, then just restoration costs like sand blasting etc and a lot of time.
Feels good to have sold the Terrot and to have this. A breath of fresh air in the garage.
Might start a thread on the USA section of this site but they take up a lot of time.
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SOLD!
It is going to the South of France to the buyer's Gite where the lanes are easy and a 2CV is a rare sight. Will be used to get the baguettes!
Sounds like that romanticised view of France as typified by that awful John Thaw series "A year in Provence" of some years back. All that's missing is stripey shirts, a string of onions and a Gauloise hanging from the lip. ;)
except down there now its all expats from somewhere or other and rioting north africans, with a dressing of russian,albanian and east european criminals to add spice. I get regular updates from pals down in the south, they've stopped trying to get me to join them,as they are too far in to get out.
I went off France many years ago , last trip was 2007, I had to stop over in Paris on the way back, what a crap'ole that is now. dirty stinking, expensive and dangerous; Used to love it, but no more,
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Agree, we keep to the rural areas, the big tourist areas with no cities in sight.
is this the first post where Mini has not been rude to me or that wonderful Terrot MT1!? ;)
Right, French bike are in the past.
The Honda has been well messed with although I'm the 3rd owner.
The engine has the right numbers to the spec and the log book (phew) but the tacho mech drive is off a 'lower' model for some reason, no idea why, but parts to get it right on the way from the USA.
Have a 'needed' list of 26 items so far...
At least you can get nearly all of them, just have to pay.
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On my CB450 Black Bomber the swinging arm pin (Honda don't call it that though) was unobtainable anywhere, and neither were rear brake shoes for some reason. As you say, most parts are available but they sure ain't cheap.
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The engine is a mystery, correct CB 175 number, links to log book issued in 72 but the tacho has no cable drive, the cam is a CD soft version so is the end cover.
Looks like I need a cb cam (hotter) but I have never seen a CD head with twin carbs. Posed the question to the wizz-kids on honda Twins.
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As forums go, that Honda Twins.net is probably the most informative I've ever seen.
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Yes, I did a full thread on my cb175 k6 rebuild on there and had a LOT of help when the carbs would not play ball.
I have my engine question on there now.