classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => European and Other Bikes => Topic started by: The Artful Bodger on October 19, 2017, 11:09:04 PM
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Hi All, just went mad and bought what I believe is a 1926 Magnat Debon 250. I know nothing about these so am wondering if anyone out there has something similar or some experience with these beasties?
It's been sitting in a French barn for many years and is about 80% complete, fortunately although very rusty the frame and all the tin ware is sound.
Hopefully I can touch base with someone with some knowledge please??
Colin
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It's deja vu all over again.. ;)
At least with a little Froggie this early the same tin-smithing, mechanicing etc skills are needed as if you'd bought a similar thing from a barn in Norfolk, Devon or wherever.
I bet vieux Jean-Paul had his franc's worth out of it before it was abandoned in that barn, so expect parts to be knackered beyond belief and totally unobtainable.
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seconded, sad but true.
on your own with this one Bodger.
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Agreed.
But like the moniker.......
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Doom and gloom fellas, let's have some positive vibes here! I've got to say the look of this thing (and potential finished look) make it worth while to give it a go. Although I've wanted a flat tanker for a long time, I have to justify my bikes to myself, and her indoors. I don't have the dosh or the room for ornaments, I own it, I ride it. So my desire for a flat tanker has always been off set by how much it would get used compared to the buying cost and valuable room it will take up.
Compared to something British this beastie was fairly cheap and I'm hoping with some "artful bodging" to get it roadworthy for not a fortune, although not 100% accurate, then I can justify it's place in my sheds?? Time will tell
Colin
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Hello!
First, post some pictures!!
Second, find a French specialist forum and join it, they will be your best friends.
Thirdly, I have found the Terrot MT1 I have just (nearly ) finished was very well made, simple, but not crude, so not ALL of it will be 'nackerd'.
Fourthly, it will be great fun.
You will not be able to spend hundreds of ££££ or Euros on bits as there will be non to buy unless you are lucky. Scour ebay.fr every day.
Fifth, don't get too hung up on originality. The bikes are not worth a fortune, are not collected by geeks, so re-build it to work and be safe and be different. I adapted BSA Bantam levers to my original handlebars, universal cable kits for controls etc.
Fighting it all out will be the fun bit!
Finally, start and maintain a running thread on here so we can all chip-in at times.
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Good advice. And if your not worried about originality look at some of the bits being made in India and how cheap they are. Be warned, you get about what you pay for (and a lot are post free) but they will be fine for an occasionally used bike and a lot come painted for the same price.
Google Enfield county or classic enfield as they make a lot of stuff that will fit other bikes.
Good luck with the project and some photos please.
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Magnat Debon and Terrot are much the same thing, bit like ajs/matchless so you might get some help from the Terrot lot in France.
I have given up trying to help out anyone who has imported one of these french wrecks not because I don't like them, I have had around a half dozen so am well aware of the drawbacks. What I have found is that an offer of books/magazines/handbooks meets with silence when the matter of price is brought up, or the poster gets the hump and goes off offended when the obvious is pointed out to them.
In fact all the french bike mags I had,about 15 yrs worth, I dumped because I could not get anyone to pay the post for them even given gratis
If you look through the thread re french bikes on here I have several times given addresses of reliable parts suppliers in france of whom most speak english, However don't ask for manuals parts lists in english they don't exist, not ever.
Lastly, give some of us old gits a bit of slack, I hate things like,"touch base" "source" "vibes" "cool" and any americanism applied to motorcycle parts, turns me right off a post.
I forgive the Oz mob "carbies" " headies" and other diminutives because they don't know any better :o ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
So, genuinely I wish you Good luck. I know you could have bought the same bike cheaper and more complete in France. In fact all the french bikes I ever had ended up being sent back to France, no market for them here.
Did you buy yours from one of those opportunistic antique dealers who bring them back by the vanload?
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No, he bought his from the hopeful bloke who bought it from the dreamer bloke who swapped it with the "I love a bit of French Art Deco" bloke who bought it from the French bloke at Kempton who made a killing from all those unsold bikes his mate had in a barn in Provence.
Or something like that...!
Only joking...I had a Monet Goyon some years back and the best day was when I did a deal with the Dutch pig farmer who took it away and gave me an Empire Star in return.
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You and I are justifiably cynical Rex, but I get really angry about all this crap being shipped over from France. It will do the old bike movement a lot of harm in the end.
The French are selling this stuff because due to their draconian Bureaucracy and the virtual impossibility of registering a bike without documentation now it is just scrap or spare parts.
Even restored and registered stuff over there has limitations of use applied to them.
I can assure people here that the French will not sell anything half decent to us as they view it as their heritage.
Let's face it, to them we are awash with old bikes, all theirs went to the scrap bin in 1940-44, possibly as reinforcement to the Atlantic wall. They have very little in the way of bigger bikes after 1945, just lots of tiddlers due to the then govt being very anti motorcycle.
The antiques trade is in the doldrums, so making a pile of cash out of mugs who buy half a scrap 2 stroke off ebay or at Kempton is a bonus. I regularly see on ebay french bikes being sold as far older than they are, or badly misdescribed or bless them, hardtail chopper bobber projects. >:(
You can still buy a small flat tanker for around 4/5k still, a better 'investment' as you'll likely get your money back.
I am not anti french bikes just pragmatic; I have had a Terrot HST, a couple of 1950s Motobecanes 175 among others not badly made, quite good looking, but a real pain to restore but it gave me an excuse for lots of trips over to France for the weekend. Damn me, I even had a 450cc FN with the rubber suspension.
Why no pics?
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Hey guys lighten up a little? I do this for fun, not for political correctness or financial gain. I don't quite understand how any bike imported from any county can do any harm to anything?? I'm not the greatest fan of Harley's but don't get embarrassed when I'm out with friends who ride them. Like wise they don't shy away from me with embarrassment when I'm on one of my scooters. Sure we take the piss out of each other but we're still friends and still ride together.
Oh I guess I should mention before political correctness bans me from mentioning scooters on a classic bike forum, I ride them because the arthritis in my left hand allows me only limited clutch operating time, since I ride two wheels 7 days a week all year round I needed something to give my hand a break. Got to say though............ I like them if I need to get somewhere rather than being just out for a ride.
I bought the bike from a guy bringing them over en-mass, since I don't speak a word of French this was (for me) the easiest route. But I had no intention to buy a French bike, German bike, Eskimo bike or whatever, I was just looking for a bit of fun.
I do my own casting, welding, machining, sandblasting, plating, painting, powder coating etc. so re-build costs tend to be pretty low. I'm aiming to have this on the road for between £1500-£1800 which includes the purchase price. By my reckoning that ain't too much for a 1926 bit of fun?
Thank you to all those offering advice and encouragement, I haven't taken any pictures so far but will try to post the ones from the eBay listing. As I progress I'll try to keep this thread updated with more photos etc.
Had fun the last couple of days trying to get the fork link pins out, this has no bushes in the forks with the pins running directly in the castings, or in my case rusted firmly in the castings. A good soak in hydrachloric acid shifted all the surface rust but didn't penetrate at all, an overnight soak with penetrating oil then a generous application of heat didn't help either. So have resorted to drilling them out which has gone well, a rummage in the "stock pile" (also know as junk corner) has produced some suitable "stock" to turn the new pins up from. I have had to order a suitable sized reamer to ream the castings out back to clean before I can make the pins to suit.
I was more concerned with sorting the forks than any other aspect of the bike as I figured parts would be scarce (confirmed by your good selves) if anything broke, but happy days they'll be fine.
Colin
I like a relaxed, easy life so don't expect
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Colin,
My Terrot was bought from a local motorcycle dealer who dabbles with old bikes every now and then and I wanted a difficult restoration.
I retired early in life, and these bikes keep my hands dirty etc with DIY being my first course of action.
3 years ago I did a Lambretta TV175, sold in 20 minutes, followed by a 1975 Honda CB175, again sold unseen.
These were easy restorations, DIY and spend a lot on parts from web sites on parts that are weak quality.
The Terrot will go up for sale very soon, a French Peugeot BIMA 1952 is next, bought from a French antique dealer from the back of her transit in Dover!
The Bima will be an oily rag job and will be my last 2 stroke!
Keep going, I look forward to reading about your challenges ad progress.
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I bought the bike from a guy bringing them over en-mass
isn't that exactly the point I was making re why it was not a good idea? ::)
brought over en mass using the uk market to make a fast few quid off those who have no idea why they are being dumped onto the uk market.
don't talk BS about scooters, I'm 70, my daily ride is a twist and go Piaggio, reliable, cheap to run and more practical than one of the vintage bikes out the shed for every day use, and I won't get upset if its damaged by dumb car drivers while parked.
Lets have some pics.
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The eBay pictures;
(http://www.artfulbodgermetalcasting.com/uploads/s-l16000.jpg)
(http://www.artfulbodgermetalcasting.com/uploads/s-l16001.jpg)
(http://www.artfulbodgermetalcasting.com/uploads/s-l16002.jpg)
(http://www.artfulbodgermetalcasting.com/uploads/s-l16003.jpg)
The missing casings I can cast myself, the stub for the carb is broken so a brazing job after turning a new stub. I'll use a pre-mono Amal rather than source an original carb as jets etc. are readily available. Primary sprockets are good so just need a new chain. Drive chain and sprockets will be made up from blanks using common English sizes.
I'll cast a replica magneto housing and have two options here, one is to use an electronic ignition from model aircraft engines, someone gave me one to play with and they're really simple to fit and have an electronic advance curve. However with no battery charging it would be a total loss battery ignition. The second option would be to make my replica housing to take a strimmer /chainsaw coil and rotor and chain drive it like the original. Both these options would cost me nothing as I have them already so are where I'll start just to get the bike on the road.
I don't intend to sell the bike on so somewhere down the line I might find the original mag, but for now the object of the exercise is to get it going cheap cheap cheap!
Colin
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The tinware is better than the last A7 I bought! It looks a whole lot better than many of the ex-Kempton projects, that's for sure. Twin-port too.....those Frenchies... ;)
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Well, I have seen worse. I expected worse.
If it was a 20s brit bike I'd be more encouraging.
Originally I though you had a sidevalve job.
To me, and as someone who was a professional restorer decades ago, yuu seem to be going a long way round to the end result. Plenty of period magnetos around and as yours is a 2 stroke it won't need advance so look around for one off a stationary engine.
Brazing old french cast iron might be problematic.
I would not have thought it hard to find, [thats find not 'source' notice] a timing cover from France, French ebay can be useful over a period.
That gearbox looks very similar to others in the Terrot/Magnat range, expect it to be knackered.
Use the net for info, this link might help for a start; http://www.terrot.org/musee_terrot/main.php?ID_type=122
I can help with difficult french technical terms.
Its a better project than I assumed from past experiences, but I still would not have paid what you did for it. Also be prepared for it to be a tad younger, the guys who bring this stuff back are pig ignorant about such things.
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Heres a half decent pic of the end result
https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-b&dcr=0&biw=1280&bih=868&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=1926+magnat+debon&oq=1926+magnat+debon&gs_l=psy-ab.12...6286.9197.0.10819.5.5.0.0.0.0.85.377.5.5.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.85...0i7i30k1j0i8i7i30k1.0.FXtt7ubKVNM#imgrc=shyR8kSB2ge8aM:
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cylinder
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/cylindre-rond-moto-collection-TERROT-250-magnat-debon-/202067363311?hash=item2f0c2745ef:g:WkQAAOSwn-tZLEiT
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/MAGNETO-MAGNETO-FRANCE-TERROT-MAGNAT-DEBON-/222676935635?hash=item33d89463d3:g:tgEAAOSwinVZuEuD
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more
http://www.terrot.org/doc_catalogues/catalogues_terrot.htm
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Hi ALl,
When I opened the link to an ebay ad on the "What do I have" thread this appeared in the linked pages
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1927-Motobecane-MB2-Vintage-Genuine-Board-Track-Racer/162721065367?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D46150%26meid%3D37364e8098db461cafde03a71f17950a%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D172936100608&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
What a total mis description and bordering on outright lies ???
Note the upside down mounted Albion gearbox
On French bikes, A friend who speaks fluent French picked up the remains of a 1929 Favor a while ago in France for
less then €200,
No engine, but the rest was almost complete,
The Staub gearbox and clutch (Burman pattern) were fairly well trashed but he was able to source another in France
and I rebuilt one from the two as the casing mounts differed
He had a JAP 250 engine that needed a home and it was an easy fit to the frame
Chambrie in France rebuilt the wheels supplied the tyres and made an exhaust and so on for very little €'s compared to UK prices
It is almost finished now, at a fraction of the price of a pre 30 Uk built bike
So Colin, keep going on the wee French 2 smoker ;D
John
WTF!!!
John
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Wow, that will be an adventure!
Love the ideas to substitute the new parts for the old.
I spent ages getting old original to work, sometimes with success once I had found Villiers Services not far from me.
I look forward to your reports. :)
Always fancied doing a girder fork bike, but if I do it will be a bike where parts are easier to come by...
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Tha "board tarck" racer is exactly sums up why I get so cheesed off about these imports. What a pile of crap and the whole ad is a tissue of lies.
Its what happens when the trendy blobber crapper crew get near a bike.
As I said before often, I quite like 1930s French bikes, they were often innovative, despite the technology not being up to their ideas, their steel for instance was not as good as ours. But their castings are good, with wide joint faces, they had unit construction, decent electrics, wheel bearing that were ball race not cup and cone, big section tyres and were quite comfortable with large saddles.
France after all is a very big country, the french are skinflints so economy and reliabilty was high on the list.
If anyone is in the market for a decent french bike of that era, take a holiday over there and visit some of their larger boot sales and get a bike thats less knackered and more complete for far less money.
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Many thanks for taking the time to find the links, I had seen the barrel on eBay but it defeats the object of the exercise here. I'm a bit strange in so much as I love a challenge and make or repair as much as I can. My aim is to use every original part including screws, washers etc. as I can, repairing whatever along the way. I realise that many of the bits probably aren't 1926 originals, but they're on the bike as I got it so.....
My foundry set up is all self designed and made, it actually caused a bit of a stir in the home foundry world and due to popular demand I ended up writing a book on it. All my powder coating equipment is home designed and home made, including the sand blasting, powder gun and baking oven. I'm presently building a lathe / mill to give me a larger capacity machine than my Myford super seven, but taking up less space. Not that I will get rid of the Myford once it's done.
Point being here is, I like to make things! I then get great pleasure putting the things I make to good use making or fixing other things. If this was a Triumph or Norton of the same era I would try to keep it as original as possible, sourcing whatever parts needed to make it right.
I'm not "disrespecting" this bike but don't feel the same need for perfect originality. I actually first got interested in it as a rolling frame for an engine I intend to build from scratch from a re-print of a 1906 book I have. But then figured there's enough there to get it going as is and build my engine as a direct "drop in" to replace the original engine occasionally. This way I can enjoy it as a stink wheel and then when I fancy it, drop in my own 4 stroke auto inlet lump. Gives me a two for one deal!
Making the timing cover, primary cover and magneto, repairing the broken fins and inlet stub will cost me nothing and keep me amused in the bargain. It will make it "my bike" and I'll be proud to ride it, even more so with my own engine in it.
Colin
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hmmm, I think yuu need a hobby ;)
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Looks a great start and you have some good ideas too.
I would be TIG welding the cast stub to the barrel rather than braising, be a much sturdier job too.
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I have my Terrot on www.terrot.org and people on there have been great even though the MT1 is not their cup of tea.
Chambrier are a really good company with a lot of parts and not a fortune.
Great project.
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Great bike to start with! I love those flat tank bikes.
Good luck and keep us posted as to the progress!
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A bit of a delay with the project, well two delays to be accurate. One is my usual problem with getting side tracked with other projects, one of which was currently taking up a bit of time. The other delay is breaking my knee in two places, 6 weeks of no weight allowed on my right leg of which I'm about half way through. Since this is the third operation on this knee over the years I'm actually obeying the doctors, getting kind of worried about the state it's getting into.
I've puled the engine apart and it's about what I expected. Water has got into the bottom end and it's not a pretty sight. Typical of small two strokes it has a hardened con rod and crank pin with loose rollers, these are all very rust pitted. The main bearings (bronze) and crank are worn.
I've made up a tool post grinder for my lathe and re-grinding the crank for the mains has gone well, I've bought some lead bronze to turn up the new bearings. I've had problems with lead bronze with main bearings in the past as it can expand quite a bit as it gets hot, with my Ariel the main bearing expanded in the alli. casing stretching the alli. I had to bore the casing out and make a new bearing with a steel sleeve which has been fine for around 6000 miles. Probably why BSA / Ariel made the bearings sleeved in the first place??
Fortunately the M/Debon engine has steel sleeves which have stayed in the crankcases so happy days! The bearings are also pinned through the thrust face so I'm happy to use lead bronze for them.
I have ground the crank pin down more than a couple of mil. and pressed on a bearing sleeve. I now will make a mild steel sleeve to press into the pitted con rod to take up the slight eccentric worn in the 'ole, this I will bore out to take a needle roller bearing. I have a bit of a concern with the bearing as the rollers are quite a bit narrower in width than the original, the overall width of the bearing is the same. However................ How hard am I going to ride this thing and how many miles am I going to do on it? I have a plan B should there be problems, but want to try the roller bearing first as it's cheap and simple.
The bore and piston are in very good condition but the rings were seized in solid. After much soaking and gentle prodding I've got them out. If this was a 4 stroke I would make new ones straight away, but for now I'll run with the old ones. I have a Bantam which I've played with a little carb and porting wise, the piston slap has to be heard to be believed! Compared to other Bantams the compression is down but the bloody thing flies (well by 125 Bantam standards which ain't a lot!). The new small end is a simple turning job, the gudgeon pin is good.
This engine is so simple that pulling it apart in the future is a nothing job, first I want to see how the big end holds up. Whipping the barrel off to make new rings in the future if needed isn't a problem.
Thanks for the suggestion to tig weld the barrel, I've had a tig for years but never tried cast iron with it, don't know why?? Anyway I had a play with a scrap Bantam barrel ( the missing fins on the M/D will be coming from this) and am kicking myself for not using tig for iron in the past!
I haven't looked at the gearbox as yet, it selects all three gears but there's a lot of end float at the clutch as the gears are selected.
As soon as the leg's back in business I'll get stuck into it again, getting really bored not getting into my garage / workshop, but my wife's guarding the door armed with a cast iron frying pan with a mean look on her face!
Colin
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Well done, and I hope the recovery progresses at speed.
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Stick with the recover schedule, trying to get back to work too soon can really set you back (from experience I know).
Depending on what type of iron your welding, I have used old iron piston rings for filler rods with good results using the TIG.