classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: cruise98 on January 08, 2018, 10:20:25 AM
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Hi everyone
Ive just purchased a 1951 Royal Enfield Model S 250cc
I got this bike without a magneto and was wondering does anyone know what mag it is suppose to have ? I ve been told a Lucas M01/6 but when i mounted it to engine the shaft sat too high to go into hole in crankcase.Did the lucas mag come out in different shaft heights?
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Probably it did not use a Lucas magneto.
Lucas M01/6 is a mag-dyno probably far to big fr the space available.
Have a word with Hitchcocks.
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Yeah they said lucas M01-6 which doesnt fit
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There are two standard spindle heights: 35mm and 45mm. Presumably your bike uses the lower one.
Leon
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Thanks leon so what should i be looking for in part number etc
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Yes spot on 35mm is what i need
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As mini-me suggested, Allan Hitchcock is your man.
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Yeah i emailed alan he doesnt know alot about the 250cc model s unfortunely
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It might well have been a different make of magneto, or probably one of those combined dynamo/contact breaker affairs. Could be Miller as well as Lucas.
This was a bike built down to a price in a time of real austerity, not the soft version they moan about these days. Likely to be using up pre war stocks of the above unit.
Sounds like Hitchcocks have fobbed you off with a standard response.Unlike them.
First thing for you is to get a parts book for that exact year and do some swatting up.
I can't find a pic of one.
Are you in UK?
edit
You can just about make out the unit here.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8EfSqMLXCjk/UEDG2w7ir8I/AAAAAAAARdI/2xHIFkMxFBw/s1600/Model_S.jpg
you can see the cradle the dynamo sits in here
http://www.pdrestoration.ca/PhotoAlbums/album_1400262565/
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Hi Cruise,
Some googling shows up a few pics of such a model
From one of them it looks like the base for the "mag or dynamo? is semicircular ?
http://www.pdrestoration.ca/PhotoAlbums/album_1400262565/
This would tend to indicate that mini-me is on the right track
I cannot identify the unit fitted in the attached photo,
Another photo in google images shows a mag dynamo fitted to a 250 ???? (it says 1951)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/michel_67/2813353615/
Good luck with it
John
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better one here
http://www.pdrestoration.ca/PhotoAlbums/album_1400262565/
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Hi mini-me
I had included that link in my earlier reply ???
John
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that'll teach me to read all t :( he posts
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Is this the unit we are talking about ?
This is a Lucas E3HB
I thought they were only prewar ?
Prewar, if you bought a standard model RE, this is what you got for ignition and lighting.
All 30 ? watts of it !
If you bought the Deluxe Model, you got a magdyno, and tubular forks...
(https://s17.postimg.org/3z7q3zz9r/Lucas_E3_HB.jpg)
btw, these things spin at engine speed.
Finding the gear to drive it can be tricky too ?
btw2, I'm not sure of the function of that clamp, or where/how it should be fitted.
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A mate and I started off our riding careers with me on a WD M20 and him on a pre war RE 350 with one of those dynamo with points on the end things. I'll swear Royal Enfield fitted a special pump to push oil out of the timing gears and through the bleeding thing. It positively dripped oil out of the points box and keeping the points working was a battle. I've suffered a severe lack of enthusiasm for both Royal Enfield and that style of coil ignition ever since.
Of course both bikes worked under the serious handicap of being owned by gormless teenagers but the M20 was more gormless proof than the RE.
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That's the unit, I am sure I have had post war units with bakelite end caps.
Also that Miller did a similar unit.
Always found on real cheap bottom of the range bikes.
I see them from time to time on ebay or at jumbles, there was one on ebay, NOS, at a daft price some months back.
I can't say I'd be excited enough with a cheapo RE to spend much money on it. Each to their own.
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I'll swear Royal Enfield fitted a special pump to push oil out of the timing gears and through the bleeding thing. It positively dripped oil out of the points box and keeping the points working was a battle.
Enfields use the timing gears to feed the oil back into the oil 'tank' compartment (in the engine),
so if the (rather basic?) oil seal* behind that unit isn't perfect,
it is rather likely the oil will go somewhere else other than the tank (!).
* the magdyno only has a felt ring there.
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Thanks everyone I have had a few emails now from Alan from Hitchcocks really nice bloke im in Kalgoorlie Western Australia very hard to find parts middle of nowhere.there were only just over 100 of the model S 51-53 sent to Australia so parts are scarce and information .im actually think over running a mag with a total loss system might be easier to find a mag 35mm spindle height anti clock wise.was talk these came out with miller DH1 magdyno waiting on parts book so hopefully that reveals all
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Bike was made to look like a 36 with girder forks but checking frame and engibe numbers it was a 1951
Yes cheapo model like mini me said but i dont mind i love bikes and like to learn everything about them even the cheapo ones
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Bike was made to look like a 36 with girder forks but checking frame and engibe numbers it was a 1951
Have you had the numbers thoroughly checked by the Enfield Owners Club ?
The prewar numbers were repeated postwar, unless they found a proper match, so often its the features that determine which is which. ?
The only real difference was that the engine mounts became wider postwar, and the carb inlet became more offset. Oh, and the rear brake had several forms.
And the fork stops won't be right if it was intended for tele forks.
Plus, if the magdyno won't fit, its likely a prewar engine.
??
Unless the full spectrum of motorcycle types manufactured is preserved, at least in part,
a very lopsided view of what folks rode and enjoyed would emerge ?
Not everyone had a road burning supersport. Far from it, in fact....
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Plus, the whole steering head is shorter in girder fork frames than for tele fork models.
Yours looks to have the girder fork version.
What does the gearbox look like ?
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Hi I spoke to Graham Scurth he told me the numbers I gave him that the bike went to Perth Western Australia in 1951
He says that the S672 on my bike is stamped on the LH side of the engine block and that the pre war they were stamped just under the oil cap on the RH side
engine and frame number are a match .The Lucas M01 I got has a spindle height of 45mm and on my bike its only 35mm they believe it should of had a Miller DH1 magdyno
I'm taking it that the Luas magdyno only come in 45mm?
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He is some more pictures
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Another pic
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If Graham checked the numbers, then he should know.
When you say 'matched numbers' does that mean same numbers ?
Or the engine number is a match with the one in the register of bikes, and the frame number (different) is a match with the register too ?
My prewar stuff has the numbers stamped on the engine left side,
but they are not Model S, maybe they were different.
Those pics don't quite show the gearbox in enough detail, but they ( engine & gearbox) could well be postwar. A Miller magdyno might explain that too, not seen those before.
Don't know how the steering head works out though, its not generally a simple bolt on swap between girders and teles, there is an inch that needs a workaround.
P.S. We'd be interested in seeing this Miller magdyno when you track one down,
just for the education.
Have fun !
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S672 stamped on LH side of engine matches frame number and engine number on back of crankcase S684 so in factory they could match engine to frame
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Aha! So pumping oil through the dynamo and points WAS a design feature. It's nice to know that after all these years.
The other thing I learnt on that bike was how to adjust the Albion positive stop foot change mechanism. We could get any three gears from four but never all four together. Pick three, any three, it didn't matter. Eventually we learnt how. It was easy. You just did it in the middle of the village crossroads -- under a full moon-- at midnight-- with a clove of garlic tucked behind your right ear. The RIGHT ear mind, NEVER the left.
Gee I learnt a lot from that bike; and all before I was old enough to hold a licence.
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If it were mine I would try and rug up some kind of coil igniton system; have a look at those contact breaker setups used in place of magnetos on some later R Enfields.
There is a very good reason why Burman gearboxes were preferred over Albion. bloody awful gearbox and clutch.
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I've got bonded linings in my Albions clutch.
This makes the clutch sweet as, and absolutely transforms the gear shifting.
Doesn't get hot and bothered either.
(Although it doesn't take away the false neutral going into 3rd sometimes.
That could probably be fixed also, but when the rest of it is sooo good...)
These plates were in it when I got it, so can't say where they came from.
I see that Gordon May's bible on all Enfield models doesn't list a Model S between 1946 and 1953.
So was the factory building batches of models that weren't in the catalog,
or just using up stray spares to build bikes and sending them to far corners of the globe ?
This means there is no brochure pic of a 1951 Model S ??
Maybe local advertising might show something ?
And, there is no mention, anywhere, of using a Miller magdyno, all mentions are of Lucas equipment.
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Exported to US and Australia small numbers all up Australia got 109
and yes alot of books dont mention the export model
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1952 RE Model S
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and yes alot of books dont mention the export model
I suppose that begs the question - did ANY mention it ?
What now makes it 1952, and not 1951 ?
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Made from 1951 1952 1953 mine was sent Western Australia September 1951
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Here is a 1951
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In 1950 we were exporting anything and everything we could to earn Dollars after the USA dumped us in the crap.
If there was a demand we tried to fill it, but there was also a chronic shortage of materials, power, everything.
There was a big demand from down under for british bikes cars etc, so if a factory could cobble a number of bikes together, that's what they sent to the other side of the planet, often knowing full well that there would be little or no spares back up or customers complaining at the factory gates.
Same reason a lot of experimental or dead end racing bike projects got shipped out.
debatable ethics but needs must where the devil drives.
Its a mistake to imagine everything made back then was pearl handled hand made works of art.
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Yeah so true i love the bike i know its not so sort after but i dont mind as long as its not a harley i love the brittish bikes
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any bike is better than no bike, and even the bottom of the range stuff is part of history.
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That brochure pic for 1952 certainly nails the Miller part of the electrics.
Interesting that it mentions a Lucas Magdyno as an option, if you can't make one fit ?
That tank badge looks later though, wasn't 1953 the first year for them. ?
That exact pic is in Gordon Mays' book as a 1954 model.
(noting previously that he has nothing for the Model S for earlier years).
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1951 52 53 export model
To change to a lucas there was a list of stuffed ypu had to change including crankcase
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Just hoping someone might know im missing the front chain sprocket off this 250cc its it has a keyway and shaft has thread on end and thats about as much as i know
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To change to a lucas there was a list of stuff you had to change including crankcase
Thats what i had suspected.
Not a very good strategy by RE, methinks.
Suppose it keeps the deluxe models more exclusive like...
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Just hoping someone might know im missing the front chain sprocket off this 250cc its it has a keyway and shaft has thread on end and thats about as much as i know
Have you tried contacting Hitchcocks about this ?
They would be your best hope.
If they have a prewar parts list for an S, it will have a part number, and they can see if they have some, or the specs for having some made. And the nut to hold it on.
If they don't, engineering/agricultural shops keep sprocket blanks.
You'd have to measure the taper angle - they come often in std sizes, not as random as you'd think, and measure the chain size, and have something suitable made up. Agricultural places do this all the time, the price of original farming parts can be absolute murder, but cheap to make up.
The depth of the taper is the only tricky part, and the keyway depth.
Finding an old sprocket someplace would be rather helpful - and the sprockets for the larger cc models are interchangeable to some extent, so maybe the smaller ones are too ?
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Hi Cruise
Could you measure the radius of the dynamo cradle seating as some Miller dynamo's are/were a different diamater to Lucas,
It might be easier to find a Lucas E3HB than a Miller ?
Some while ago I fitted an Alton (Lucas size 3in.) to a Vincent that originally had a 3 1/2in Miller
Similar to your RE the cradle was part of the crankcase
A conversion sleeve is available for the Vincent's, eccentrically bored so you can adjust the sprocket mesh
It might provide a solution for your RE ????
Have you asked Modak about a dynamo? Lucas or Miller
John
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Hi John the cradle isnt there unfortunely . who is modak ?
So found the 51 to 53 were export only they used parts left over from war they used g frames 350cc rigid some went through with girder forks but most telescopic then in 1954 model S was sold in UK for only a short time along with the clipper as a cheaper option
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Where did this "wartime" info come from ?
I would have thought that was a little unlikely ?
1951 is a long time after WW2 to have bulk parts left over from. ?
I've got a 1945 Model CO, and it was a new build then, not refurbed WW2 parts.
They are in the brochure as such, alongside said refurbed WW2 bikes.
They wouldn't have built too many Model G's during WW2 either ?,
they were mostly the C and CO and DD.
Another complication with that G frame theory is the front and back engine mounts on Model G engines are quite wide, 3" at the front and 4" (?) at the back.
Your engine mounts would be narrower (?), how did the frame cope with that ?
Of course, Model G frames could have been built with narrower engine mounts...
(Would that still make them Model G ?).
??
Cheers.
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Hi Cruise,
http://modakmotorcycles.com.au/
John