classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => European and Other Bikes => Topic started by: Jonny The Goat on January 15, 2018, 07:02:34 PM
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Hi, In my garage I have this old French bike. Its a 1930 Monet Goyon S17 with a incorrect tank on. Never really do much with it but I sort of like it. I have never been able to find out what the engine is. Its not correct for the bike as been on the French MG site in the past. No one there could ID it. I was told when I bought the bike it was a Villiers 250R, have not been able to find that engine ether and it looks a bit small to be 250 but have not had it apart to sure. Its a twin port with a nice bronze Amac carb. The exhaust connections at the head are screw threaded. The number I can see is very worn. Any ideas ?
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Its a 250cc Ancre de Bateau.
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Wrong model...this one's a 200cc Port-Stoppeur...
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Hi Jonny,
You'll be looking a long time for a Villiers 250R. They are so rare that Villiers didn't list them in any of their factory literature. Unlike all their other engines they never put out an operators handbook nor printed a spare parts list nor put them in any catalogue. If they were still around Villiers would even flatly tell you they don't exist.
Cheers,
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http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/vintage-2-stroke-bike.56837/ :o :o :o ;) ;) ;)
A lot of French bikes used Villiers engines; Villiers engines were used in all sorts of industrial/agricultural uses.
edit I notice yours has a non detachable head, probably off a mower or the like.
France was a bit hard up in the 1930s, then there was that bit of embarrassment 1940-45 which did not help, the 50s were also hard economically. After 80 years its assuming a lot to believe all that iron belongs together, its probably a bitza, and looks to me as if the model number has been modified with a file.
I have seen some ingenious and appalling mods from the hard up or tight fisted to keep transport running from those eras. Somewhere I have a photo taken in Spain of a OHC Sq4 lashed up as a Harley look alike; you'd not believe such bodgery could be mobile.
The god of originality does not work everywhere there is an old bike.
Its a dog, but its yours to love.
PS that carb is not all Amac either,
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Monet Goyon 1930 with Villiers Brooklands engine.
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other side
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Na, the carb on in the picture is something I quickly stuck on to get it running as the Amac was constantly flooding. Hopefully it now all sorted as is back on though not running as well as my replacement but will sort that when I get time to tinker.
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I have also managed to find the original sales spiel that got me interested in this bike back when I bought it. Obviously with nothing other than what this says and no real providence I took it with a pinch of salt. What do you think ? The V5 I have gives a date of something like 1947 ( I do not have it to hand and do not remember if the reg No is transferable or not ) Any idea where the reg No is from ? It changed hands around a year before I bought it but apparently this was the first time in 30 years or so.
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I have for sale this very special bike. It is a 1930-34 Monet Goyon 250cc series R Villiers engine racing bike. It was prepared for racing in the 30s and has a number of interesting period race features. It was raced through the 30s at many race tracks including the historic banked track at Brooklands in England.
The company Monet Goyon was formed in 1917 by Joseph Monet and Adrien Goyon. It began manufacturing invalid carriages for disabled war veterans. In 1920 they became agents for the British Autocycle company and then in 1922 produced their first motorcycle, a 100cc BMA (Biclyclette moteur auxiliaire). During the 20s they built an excellent reputation for sporty flat tank bikes such as the Z147 and 175. The company had considerable racing success including winning the Bol Dor six times between 1927 and 1948. The company continued to build bikes until its closure in 1959. The factory was in Macon, one hour north of Lyon.
After some investigation I believe this bike to be a R 250 Villiers engine bike manufactured between 1930 and 1934. I has a two speed gearbox operated by hand or foot change. I have been told that this unusual period modification was for push starts? It has period rear set foot pegs and low racing handlebars.
The condition of the bike is very good. It is better than oily rag and the paintwork is all original with a lovely patina. The tank is excellent with just a couple of small dents, nothing serious. The wheels are in excellent condition with good tyres. Overall the bike just looks right for a 30s racer. Mechanically it all seems good. No attempt has been made to start the bike and I believe it was last run some 30 years ago. The engine turns over fine with good compression. There is no spark but the HT lead does not appear to be well attached at the flywheel which could well be the problem. I don't think it will take a lot to get this bike running. The gearbox engages fine and the clutch works ok. The front brake needs adjusting the heel operated rear brake works well.
I acquired this bike in a group of bikes from a deceased estate. I would imagine that this bike is unique in the UK.
Once fettled and running this bike will grace any period bike event such as the coupes moto legend. It would be a lovely addition to any collection or museum.
I don't have a buy it now price as to be honest I don't know what the bike is worth.
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I do not think the number has been filed even though it looks bad. It seems to be deep in the metal and I do not think it was stamped but in the casting when it was done. Also it came with the for me impossible to use rear heal brake as well as both a hand change and foot change gear leaver with a stubby hand change leaver. There was no kick start and one could not be fitted. I have done a few easyily reversible mods since the photo like bringing the brake leaver in front of foot peg and removing the foot change leaver so i can fit a kick start, still need to work on that. It had no lights on and I fitted them though not wired up yet and may remove and fit number boards :). Its very hard to ride as you need to be of horse jockey size with your legs right up in a jockey position. Not much going for it really as a riders bike but I just really like the look :).
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Jonny,
That engine isn't Villiers. There is nothing Villiers about it. For example, the flywheel magneto is definitely not Villiers. The whole style of the engine isn't Villiers. It is certainly not 'racing' Villiers. Villiers entered the 1923 Ultra Lightweight TT with a fixed head engine like your example and found very quickly they had overheating issues. The next year they came back with the Super Sport TT engine having an alloy head and alloy piston and from then on until Villiers ceased production sporting Villiers engines used alloy head and pistons and only Villiers 'cooking' engines were fixed iron head.
Monet Goyon imported Villiers engines through the 1920's and won a lot of races in the 175cc class using Villiers engines. So much so that other French makers forced through a rule insisting that only home grown French engines could be used whereupon Monet Goyon started making Villiers engines under licence. They are very similar to Villiers but not 100% identical. Your engine may be one of them.
Pre war Villiers engines are dead easy to identify as they all had a clearly stamped letter prefix before the individual engine number. The ID numbers/letters on the back of the cylinder are internal factory casting numbers for foundry identification purposes, nothing else. If there are no engine numbers stamped on the crankcase then it isn't Villiers. If there are engine numbers stamped in then say what they are.
I think your V5 saying 1947 could be correct. The French industry were still using girder forks then, especially in the light weight field. Have a look at other French lightweights and you will see it.
Cheers,
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Monet Goyon made a heck of a lot of 2 stroke models, for quite some years.
Keep clicking, your model is probably there - someplace. !
http://www.monet-goyon.net/2tempsAVG.html
Both my Villiers powered beasties of 125cc and 225 cc had exhaust pipes which screwed on with a fine threaded large exhaust nut. This was very common over the years ? Very robust too.
The licence built ones used the same system, by the looks of it ?
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Hi R,
In the main early Villiers did not use screwed on exhaust nuts. They started with the 125cc 9D in 1936 and the 197cc 3E in 1938 but the majority of Villiers exhausts in the 1920's and 30's used either a clamp on a stub style or bolt on flanges. The first screwed exhaust nuts were of a castellated style and only in the 1950's did they finally move to the finned nut as shown on the mystery engine. I'd be interested to finally know what make the mystery engine is but it didn't come out of the Villiers factory.
Neither do I understand the difficulty in dating the bike itself. As you rightly point out there are several Monet Goyon sources available on the web. Monet-Goyon have a solid following in France. It's not as if it is an impossibly early veteran or an obscure make produced only for two or three years. People know Monet Goyon well.
I look forward to some solid information.
Cheers,
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I'm always a bit sceptical when sellers claim some sort of racing link, then in the next sentence say that they don't really know; still, it looks like a fun bike either way. The reg number doesn't appear to be age-related, so unless someone has done a ring-job then it seems the bike has been in the UK for some time rather than a Kempton dreamers bike.
Even if it had been an import in the early days of Ebay (as mine was) it would still be wearing an age-related plate.
Mine was a 1936 ALS2 (or ALS3, I forget) and even though it had an OHV engine with exposed hair-pin valve springs, 4-speed box, Webb-style girders and a soft-soldered pie-crust tank it was still dull, and soon sold back to French.
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That original ad is full of BS, an upfront dealer would have been subject to prosecution, its a tissue of lies, assumptions and downright ignorance.
Its typical of the crap spouted in ebay ads by sellers of these imports, mostly opportunist "antique" dealers doing the rounds of the french
brocantes.
As for that reg its got to be fake, I cannot believe that was imported into this country in 1947. No way.
This....
Obviously with nothing other than what this says and no real providence I took it with a pinch of salt. What do you think ? The V5 I have gives a date of something like 1947 ( I do not have it to hand and do not remember if the reg No is transferable or not ) Any idea where the reg No is from ?
.....Is that seller telling you he has found out he bought a pile of crap for an excessive price and now wishes to unload it.
None of my my V5s "give a something like date". ::)
"I took it with a pinch of salt" I'd need enough to grit the M1 to swallow that spiel.
I ought not to get wound up about crap bikes but I still remember the real trouble I had to sell good honest bikes years ago, I never sold a dud, and always stood by what I sold, only to see people buy scrappers from my rivals at bigger prices. Then they'd came moaning to me about it. >:( >:(
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As for the bike frame and the front forks they are a 1930's Monet Goyon S17, this was a twin port bike but with a 175 engine I think. The frame numbers have been id'd on the Monet Goyon french site. It also has on the V5 as model S17. It is also shown on the V5 as having a 197 or something close to that engine size.
The engine though is unidentified, The Monet Goyon lot say its not one of there's so is probably not a Villiers from any factory. It may well be something made up like Mini Me says. But I do think at sometime the bike has been raced even if by a individual having track fun. Why on earth would anyone want a heel operated brake and both a foot and short stubby hand shift and no kick start ? I think it probably came over in the 40's and got issued this number and registered as a MG S17. It may of been modified before or after that time. If the engine was put in after it came over here I would of thought it was more likely British or British parts and if before when it was back in France more likely French. All I really want to know is what is it or from what parts it been knocked up out of. Mini Me mentioned lawn mowers I think, anyone know of a twin port mower ?
Cheers, Jon
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To clear up the V5 I have dug it out. It obviously does not say " Something like" I just did not have it to hand.
It says GWF997W as declared manufactured 1936 , non transferable date of first reg 2014. This was me getting the V5 as it had apparently got lost over the years. The frame number is 1936 MG S17 as I did go onto there site and ask to check. It came with some old paperwork and I think even a old tax disc I had to send in, never had any problems so did the DVLA have it on there books still, I cant remember. I think the reg number someone dated for me as 1940's. I have no idea how you do that is there a register of numbers someplace ? And way I guess this must be why the last owner said it was in the UK from the 40's.
So was it off the road do you think and lost its V5 as does happen or did it come over in the back of a van. Maybe the owner before me as you say thought it had been knocked up and passed it on :( Still I like it.
As for the exhaust connections I see R says he has some Villiers did have fine thread screw on barrel, these are also very fine large thread screw on but as I recall as do not have the bike in front of me I do not think the exhaust nuts are correct, they screw on but I think felt a bit lose on the threads so may have different thread. Anyway to me its a interesting bike and a nice shape and it was not expensive. I will get to the bottom of the engine one day, it looks the part to me and I do not care on originality on this. There is not a engine number as far as I could see anywhere on the engine only that old worn casting and a number on the flywheel mag.
Cheers, Jon
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The number is a replacement for when it was first registered; some years back they were less stringent than they are now. That is why its non transferable.
It did not have to be a lawn mower, villiers engines and their french knock offs were used in all sorts of machinery and yes I have seen a two exhaust lawn mower.
its got the stubby lever because its not its original box, its got a K/s but it probably had cycle type pedals when it was made, its what the french classed as a BMA.That gear-change is so obviously home made.
I think you need to do a lot more research into old french utility bikes from the 1930s, you can talk it up as much as you like, its a lash up, never been on a track unless it was a cycle track.
It is what is and if you like it all well and good.
I've been in bikes dealing and import/exporting them and have seen so much of this.
Have a holiday in france and do the rounds of the Brocantes/Vide Greniers and Bourses[auto jumbles] and see lots like this.
Sorry to be harsh, thats my lot.
nearest I can find to your thing is this
http://motoensavoie.canalblog.com/archives/2013/05/30/27284801.html
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There no doubt about it Mini me, you do make me laugh. What you seem so hooked up on is that this or any bike is not original. All bikes are just parts put together and for me I don't care. I like it and like the look. All I wanted was a answer to what the engine may be, sadly this as yet has not been answered but it may well be just parts put together from many engines as you suggested, but I don't care :) I am in no way talking it up just pointing things out. Yes the gear change has been made up but if you look you can see this was a awful long time ago. No it never had pedals and there is a place the kick start would of once been fitted but with the twin gear shift this would make fitting it impossible. Hope that's straight. You do need to get over any perceived injustice you have had done to you in the past though as your blood pressure must be through the roof :) Anyway have a good one and take it easy.
Cheers, Jon
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All I wanted was a answer to what the engine may be
Answer is, no-one knows :o :o :o
Anyway have a good one and take it easy.
Cheers, Jon
:D :D :D :D :D
I spent too many years in the bike trade you see, that and what having to deal with some of the biker types does to you.......
A very quick route to the nut house..... I have a fund of tales you would not believe, takes about 3 pints of Guinness to relate them all.
You are Frome area? not so far from me, so probably explains a lot ;)
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you are right there that at this time sadly no one knows but there must be someone knowledgeable out there somewhere. I just have to find them ;)
Yes Frome area Somerset and would not want to be any where else :)