classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: iansoady on March 22, 2018, 03:47:49 PM
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I had a feeling this would happen.....
I'm starting to get down to some work on my 1952 Norton ES2. I did have a feeling the rear suspension wasn't working and have discovered that the alloy slider on at least one side (all I've looked at so far) is seized onto the bearer rod. After slackening the pinch bolt and freeing the taper the bearer rod is free in the frame but the slider just moves with it.
I've run penetrating oil down the join as much as I can but suspect large amounts of heat (which I don't have) will be needed, I don't really want to get down to the bare frame at this stage as I was hoping to get the bike up and running to discover what was needed. Seems I've got to this point already.
This is the arrangement:
(http://www.iansoady.org.uk/Norton/images/suspension.jpg)
Any helpful suggestions welcome.
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A bit of heat applied to the ally will free the seizure.Be rust inside too,I would imagine.Be careful not to overheat,as the ally will certainly be heat treated,and you may weaken it...Usually,the sliders are flogged out.I always use molygrease with 30% MoS2 on mine.
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There is a grease nipple dead smack in the middle of that beautifully done alloy casting.
Replace the silly original type with a modern one, attach a good grease gun to it, and pump away.
Grease guns can apply serious pressure, so with any luck grease may be forced through to where its needed. Of course, if the seizure is above the nipple and the grease all goes downwards, or vice versa, then it may be no help - but it has to be worth a try. It must have been a lazy PO that let the grease dwindle to the point of allowing rust, plunger suspension is totally reliant on those alloy sliders being free to move.
P.S. Have you tried a good sharp WAP with a heavy hammer down on the rod, any initial movement may free it off ? Probably with the wheel still fitted to restrain it all, and the frame jacked up a bit
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Diesel is a better penetrant in these cases than oil, patience is needed.
As for heat, a Black and Decker hot air gun should provide enough encouragement to the alloy to get the diesel seeping through. It is best to have some kind of baffle behind to direct heat back.
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Are the sliders bushed or being alloy do they run direct on the central rod? I'm trying to attach a photo of the last plunger rear suspension I did. It shows both the clamp I used to fit the refurbished units plus the extra grease nipple I installed on the top.
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They are not bushed,and if bushed will generally break in use because boring reduces the thickness too much........Im pretty sure new made units are avaiable.....but the originals would be forged RR50 alloy,and Ill bet any replacements are castings made in a cowshed in Mumbai by your friend and mine..Sunny Enfield.......the grease nipples are 1/4 BSF from memory.
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Another bit of possibly unneeded advice......be careful how you reassemble the wheel bearings....if the spacers are wrong,its not too noticeable,but prevents the axle nuts from clamping properly before one side runs out of thread. Makes for a very wobbly ride.
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Many thanks all.
I'll try the grease idea - as you say, one of those daft early nipples where the grease goes everywhere except where you want it. The forging is as said a very nice component.
The previous owner probably did apply the grease gun but not effectively. Most things on the bike have been fairly well maintained (except for the use of metric threads here & there)
I have put a suitably sized socket under the bearer rod with a trolley jack pushing it up and the weight of the bike on it and left it overnight but as I expected no movement as yet.
I'm going to turn up a stepped drift to fit in the lower end and try with the trolley jack and blowlamp as suggested. Otherwise I'll probably need to strip it to a bare frame, which I was hoping to avoid at this stage, and take it somewhere - a proper job would be to get it hot then use a press to push the bearer rod out. The rod only comes out upwards as it is tapered on its bottom end to locate into the frame abutment.
I'm in no rush but was hoping to get it on the road before too long to discover what else needs doing.......
Thanks for the wheel bearing tip as well.....
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Ian,if you retighten the taper and pinchbolt,you may be able to rotate the slider on the rod,if it will hold....apply a bit of heat too.....preferably boiling water.....no oxy or concentrated heat ...make sure the taper and top clamp are perfectly dry of oil or grease ,or they wont hold.......put a big shifter on the axle mount and try to turn.........if you start hammering you will wreck the rod,and likely bend the frame..........talking of bends...is the rod straight? ..not bent in a rear ender?
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Thanks John.
The thread at the bottom end is very poor, at least on the bolt that screws into it, having been somewhat butchered previously (and the one on the other side has a metric bolt in it!!). I do suspect PO has had a go at removing these and having failed passed it on to me. It may explain why he fitted a 4.00 section rear tyre rather than the original 3.25".....
I've tried clamping both sides up at the top but the bearer rods still turn. I'll try cleaning out the penetrating old with brake cleaner, find a setscrew that will fit the bottom end (should be 7/16" cycle by the look of it - very hard to get at - and tighten it all up. I'm not hopeful at this stage as it all seems very firmly stuck together.
WRT grease nipples, as near as I can see it's .226" major diameter over the thread x 26 tpi which makes it look like 1/4" BFF. Is this a standard nipple thread? They're not something I'm familiar with, and BSP seem to be 28 tpi. There are only about 3 full threads showing so hard to tell......
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Progress? Not a lot....
The grease nipples are in fact the ball type so I can get the grease gun on properly. However, it just squirts out round the threads, even with several winds of ptfe tape. The threads are very wobbly so I suspect either the nipples are not original or someone has tried all this before......
The slightly good news is that there is a 7/16" Cycle thread at the top of the bearer bar (which is bored right through) so I should be able to make a puller to help apply some force to the bar as well as pushing from below with the drift (when I've made it) and the trolley jack. That added to heat hopefully will shift it.
The other side is seized as well.....
All good fun.
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if both sides are seized,I would suspect bent rods from a rear end collision......you may have to compress the springs enough to cut the rods......When I restored my ES2,I had new oversize rods made and induction hardened,as the simplest way to eliminate wear in the sliders......if I did it again,I would probably use hardchromed rod from a hydraulic cylinder repairer,provided a suitable size was available.
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If you can get the rods up out of their tapers even slightly, and then give them a wallop from above with a heavy hammer, this may be enough to free them inside the sliders - it may take only a good shock to break them free. Hopefully....
The alloy would have to get extremely hot to alter its properties, if you were going to heat them to try to break them free, and the expansion alone of the alloy may free them off .
After all, its recommended to get crankcases smoking hot to insert and remove bearings - "hot enough that if you spit on them it will spit back" is the proverbial yardstick, and thats fairly hot.
Always waft a heat source onto alloy all over though, never in a concentrated spot...
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Or,you could simply leave them seized.
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That was actually suggested elsewhere. They could I suppose be bent but I would have thought this would cause binding of the bearer rods in the frame abutments and they slide quite happily there. Unfortunately there's no way of seeing what's beneath the shrouds without destroying them. I suppose as a (very) last resort I could use an angle grinder to go through the shroud, spring and bearer rod, all of which could be replaced but I'll be patient.
I can in fact get the rods out of their tapers but of course they move together with the sliders. It does demonstrate to me that the springs work. The problem with walloping is that the whole lot bounces on the spring.
I'll probably try heat later in the week. Yes, I was thinking of the spit balling up as being the optimum temperature.
Meantime I continue to squirt penetrating oil down......
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That's the thing about these old bikes now they're just old bikes rather than transport...no need to rush and destroy old parts when you can spend time and patience and reclaim them (hopefully!)
My A7 (a different design, I know) had one seized plunger due to the steel ring in the base of the top shroud seizing on the carrier, but PlusGas, time and a big persuader sorted it eventually.
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I made a puller from a length of 1/2" UNF stud which previously saw service as a Commando clutch compressor, a box spanner and a chunk of flat bar (also from the clutch compressor). Turned down to 7/16" for an inch at one end, 26 tpi thread cut and screwed into the top end of the bearer rod, it actually slid out fairly easily without the use of heat or frantic hammering. I just hope the other side comes out as easily.....
(http://www.iansoady.org.uk/Norton/images/puller01.jpg)
(http://www.iansoady.org.uk/Norton/images/puller02.jpg)
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If yo give them a wallop from above with a heavy hammer, this may be enough to free them inside the sliders -
Wow.....and who thought back street bodgers were a dying breed.....
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Sadly, the other side is proving much more reluctant even after getting it to 200 C. I'll persist with the penetrating oil after letting it cool down a bit. The bar has moved a couple of inches however so maybe whacking it down may help to free things off (we don't do bodging on this forum.....)
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Wow.....and who thought back street bodgers were a dying breed.....
How do you think a "professional" would tackle this if you took it to them ?
Pussy footing about is likely to achieve not much, reading most repair manuals when they refer to "returning it to the factory" is when stuff like this is required.
Having a press may do the same work, but you have to be careful with those plunger frame setups, the plunger supports are prone to cracking on Norton frames, even in normal road use...
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it actually slid out fairly easily without the use of heat or frantic hammering.
It shouldn't be a matter of "frantic hammering", the idea is to shock it loose.
As every apprentice knows - hit once, hit it hard, hit it square.
Might need a cap over it to stop it belling out.
If you already have it moving though, then shocking it loose is no longer in the plan.
Oil/grease/penetrating fluid sounds like the next move, if heat doesn't free it off. ?
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Yes, I think patience is probably the key as I'd left the first one for several days soaking in penetrating oil. The problem is that the shrouds stop me applying the oil to exactly where I want it.
I've been thinking about a "last resort" and think it would mean sacrificing the top shroud (I can probably find something else that can be adapted), the top spring (I can get one made in Redditch) and the bearer bar (I can make a new one myself).
But I hope to avoid all that as it will be a bit fraught to say the least and the angle grinder is not my tool of choice.
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Worth remembering that as the springs are in compression they'll tend to grip the disc if you go down the angle grinder route.
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Yes, I find the prospect pretty scary so am putting it off as long as possible.....
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How did you get on with the "springs in compression" in the one they you did get apart.
I can remember a dent in someones ceiling from when one came apart.
I think it is recommended you constrain them somehow, I've just used rope to sort of wrap them up, before fully withdrawing the rod.
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I used an old bed sheet when disassembling my effort. I wrapped it around the whole shebang several times until it looked like a mummy and then gently tapped away. It caught everything comfortably. Nothing shot off anywhere.
For reassembly I made the clamp as shown in the earlier photo. I first assembled everything on the bearer rod which lined everything up. Then clamped it all up tight with the bearer rod still in place. The it was just a matter of removing the bearer rod, popping the unit in the frame and slipping the bearer rod back in. As everything was new, straight and well greased it was surprisingly easy.
The only fussy bit was not scratching the new paint on the spring covers. You can see the thin card protectors between the clamp and the covers..
I think you've done the hard bit Ian. It's all cruising from now on.
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My suspension was worn,but because of spring pressure I made up a threaded puller ,and didnt attempt to drive the bits apart....You can get away with hammering Caterpillar parts with a sledgehammer,but not bikes.I also used a car spring compressor to restrain the bits as they came free of the frame......Now here a story of bike hammering......professional restorer? attacks a Matchless V twin with hammer to release the timing gear......bashes the shaft to bits,then cuts the gear and shaft endwise with a cutoff wheel.......he s been told the shaft and gear are available from the Morgan club......Anyhoo,orders shaft and gear,when it comes the shaft is the wrong length.....he s got a 1937 motor,shaft is for 1938,doesnt fit.!937 is unobtainable......customer is a outlaw bikie...not amused......
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The Norton approved spring compressor is an old rear brake rod(!) with cut off penny washers and wing nuts so I will knock up something similar. The idea is to slide the assembly sideways till the 1/4" rod will enter then tighten it down. What can go wrong?
Getting back to the one which is stuck, no movement. I'm coming to the conclusion that there's a build up of rust on the lower end of the bearer bar stopping it from going far into the slider (although it has moved a couple of inches), and I'm concerned that if I try too hard it may split the slider by the wedging action.
So I'm leaving it under pressure for a few days. If I see no movement I will hacksaw round the top shroud so it drops down and will give access to the top spring. Use an angle grinder to cut through the spring as near half way down as possible (probably finish with a hacksaw taking Rex's warning into account) which I should then be able to wind the top half into the bottom to get access to the top of the bearer rod. Then cut off the top of the bearer rod with the angle grinder, releasing the whole lot.
I'll probably finally withdraw the remains of the rod downwards. In a worst case I'll take it to someone who can bore the remains of the bearer out, or maybe press it (beyond my skills and equipment).
I'll get a pair of springs made using the good one as a pattern (many years ago I used Paul Savage in Redditch and I see he's still around). If I'm careful I should be able to get the top shroud welded back up, and I can make a new bearer rod.
In the meantime while I wait I've pulled the primary drive apart and note that the gearbox mainshaft appears to be bent, along with about 1/8" end float (probably the bronze thrust washer on the sleeve gear). And the clutch centre is badly worn....
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I made a compressor using penny washers and the "correct" old brake rod which I found under the bench.....
(http://www.iansoady.org.uk/Norton/images/compressor01.jpg)
In situ with rather rickety spacers on top.
(http://www.iansoady.org.uk/Norton/images/compressor02.jpg)
close up of the cut down penny washer.
(http://www.iansoady.org.uk/Norton/images/compressor03.jpg)
And the components separated. The main spring is a substantial item......
(http://www.iansoady.org.uk/Norton/images/compressor04.jpg)
You can see the build up of rusty muck around the bottom which is what I think is stopping the bearer rod on the other side shifting.
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Shroud cut (not very elegantly) giving access to the spring. The gap between the coils looks enough to get the angle grinder direct to the bearer rod without cutting the spring (which is a bit frightening given it's under compression). We'll see......
(http://www.iansoady.org.uk/Norton/images/shroud.jpg)
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How about cutting the spring vertically? At least that way the cut ends will move in the same plane as the cutting disc.
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Can you get a new spindle? In that case I'd just cut right through the damn thing with an angle grinder.
I once dropped one of these bikes on my foot, hence lost all my interest in plunger Nortons >:(
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My local Norton dealer seems to be right out of them but I can make one.
I'll have a go at cutting through it today. If I disappear from the forum I'll have cut through my hand as well........
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Successfully chopped through the bearer bar as the cutting disc just fitted between the spring coils. It was a little fraught getting the remains off as I had to slide the assembly a long way sideways to get my compressor in and I was waiting for the whole lot to take off past my ear.
I now have the remains of the bar starting to move in the slider after a lot of heat and more penetrating oil so am feeling very pleased with myself. As I suspected it's very rusty which is what was seizing it into the slider.
Now all that remains is to get the shroud welded up, get a pair of springs made and to make a new bearer bar. Final photos will follow.
Many thanks to all here for helpful suggestions. Unlike the NOC where I got none.........
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Now you understand my enthusiasm for wrapping it all up in a bed sheet before removal. No drama. No bits flying about. No waiting for the left ear to be plucked off as a spring whistles past a bit close.
It makes you wonder if the designer ever thought how his design could be put together or pulled apart again for maintenance or just left it to the bods on the shop floor to cobble up something. I suspect the latter.
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John Deere graders are the worst,designed to go together on the assembly line,and be completely inaccesable for field repairs to quite simple parts.
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The recommended Norton technique actually works quite well (long threaded rod) but I had to move the whole lot much further out as the rod had to go up the middle of the bearer rod, which was thoughtfully provided with a through hole at Bracebridge Street. It meant there was only 1/3 or so of the shroud engaging with the frame. I did consider the bedsheet......
Anyway, I've now successfully got the very rusty remains of the rod out of the slider so can start planning the rebuild. Sadly the bearer rod is a bigger diameter than I can get in my Chinese lathe so will need to find a helpful person to make that for me.
I'm so relieved to have managed to get it all apart however.
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I now need a pair of main springs making. In the (fairly) distant past I've used Paul Savage in Redditch but his phone number is now coming up as unobtainable. Probably he's of an age to have packed it in.
Any suggestions - preferably in Redditch, centre of the spring and needle making world?
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Active Springs were always good, but the last time I had some hairpin valve springs made to pattern for an old French bike they took eleven weeks and the Summer was over.
They were quality though, so maybe I was just unlucky.
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Yes, I think those companies would much prefer manufacturing in large quantities.
Actually, I've looked more closely at my existing springs and have successfully dressed out the minor marks made by my inept angle grinding without thinning the parent metal significantly.
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Having chopped the main spindle ("bearer bar" in two, I was hoping I'd be able to make a new one myself but my tiny Chinese lathe doesn't have the capacity.
So I turned to someone who goes by the name "divie" on the Real Classic forum. An ex-toolmaker of many years experience, he has a very well equipped small machine shop in his garage. He very quickly made me a new spindle out of EN16T which fits to perfection and now the back end is all together.
Onwards and upwards!
(http://www.iansoady.org.uk/Norton/images/plunger01.jpg)
You can just see the top of the new bearer bar peeking out here:
(http://www.iansoady.org.uk/Norton/images/plunger02.jpg)