classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => European and Other Bikes => Topic started by: mowbar on September 26, 2018, 07:39:31 AM
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Hi all, I am very new to the vintage motorcycle scene and i have just acquired a monet goyon and I am trying to find out exactly what it is
it is fitted with a Villiers mark 7A which from my research is a 247cc engine and only made between 1924/1925, so does this date the bike? I have tried contacting the monet goyon owners club but I got no response. Can anyone shed any light on this for me, any advice or help would be greatly appreciated.
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https://i.postimg.cc/DwMkNMf9/WP_20180913_09_12_17_Pro_LI.jpg
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https://i.postimg.cc/Hx7p3CQv/WP_20180913_09_13_04_Pro_LI.jpg
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More late 1940s early 50s than 1924.
If you were sold it as that date you were done.
Don't expect any french bike club to respond unless you join/write in french.
I expect all the big French bike clubs are well cheesed off with enquiries from English owners. For reasons look out threads on here and the problems of buying these things in a country to which they were never imported, nor provided for in English.
Plus the French hate us.
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I'd say just pre or post-war although the starburst finning on the head looks to be (or makes it look) earlier. I was on the M-G forum some years back and there were a couple of helpful members there, although in the main even when I tried Google Translate most weren't impressed. The most helpful bloke was a German funnily enough, but there's a lot of good info there.
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wrong engine? which is why was off-loaded onto an antique dealer only interested in cashing in on the uk bike market.
where did you buy it from? ebay, kempton or a bloke on the south coast?
In think I may have some bumph on this, will look it out later.
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i bought it in Ireland , where I am from, i have seen a 1930 monet goyon and it looks very similar, but you think it couldn't be that early?
the serial number on the frame is 38082 if that is any help. The engine looks like it has always been there, and if you were going to change the engine why put in one from the 1920's?
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why put in an older engine?
because thats what the french did to keep it running. its common enough and they only send us old crap via these antique dealers who buy the stuff by the lorry load.
Possibly someone has tried to make the bike look like this from 1929
(https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/uploads/cars/any/9443968.jpg)
much better and clear pics needed of both sides; Is the head alloy? I suppose its remotely possible you have a TT engined one,but I doubt it.
Your frame has had a lot of extra bits welded on to it,all those triangular plates and braces for a start.
All in all its an example of why no one who is a beginner with old bikes should never buy this french stuff. Has it got a irish reg?
Ps I found some stuff in a french magazine that might help, I will scan it and post it tomorrow
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heres a 1929 version, note the position of the carb, I cna't see one, or an inlet port in your pics;
I might be revising my estimate of the year after I look a bit more.
(https://cdn1.mecum.com/auctions/lv0117/lv0117-281008/images/lv0117-281008_1@2x.jpg?1484497070000)
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The OP's bike looks to have been seriously jiggered with. The extra bracing and fillets are odd, the tank has clearly been partially refinished (or just a new tank panel decal) and from the pic the exhaust pipe looks home-made.
That sort of stuff rings alarm bells when I see a bike as it indicates "tarted up for resale" or "I couldn't get this bike going so I'm making it look it's best for the advert".
I remember that later M-Gs had the Villiers engine made in France under licence but I have no idea whether parts are interchangeable with Villiers engine made in the UK. It shouldn't be a difficult bike to get running anyway, but the way to preferably buy 'em is as the one in Mini-me's photo.
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Sacre bleu.....ees a special mod so ze intrepid Frenchman can carry many more bunches of onions on ze velo.
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thanks for all the info guys, i will get more pictures today, i bought it at a deceased auction, the guy had a good few bikes mostly from the 1920's Hudsons, Ajs, etc. a guy i met at the auction seemed to think it was a race bike for some reason.
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He was probably the bloke selling it.
"It looks like a race bike" is second only to finding "E Presley owned this bike" scratched underneath the saddle for sucking in the gullible interested bidders.
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What Rex said x10
The guy you met at the auction was probably the same one who collected the dosh at the end of the sale.
But you only have to look at the total crap spouted by some sellers of junk bikes on ebay to realise that the depth of ignorance out there is bottomless.
'Rare' 'Racing' are two words that say fek off and forget it.
I think you are going to have to make a real hard decision what you are going to do with this bike; my advice to to put in on ebay and cut your losses. This bike will bankrupt you. Just read the past threads on here about french bikes.
I have a few, I quite like some of them but then again I used to make regular trips over there, I speak and read reasonable french and had contacts in a couple bike clubs. Unless you can do some of that forget it. They will give you very little help.
There are about 3 suppliers of spares for old bikes in the whole of France; their contacts are on here.
If you must buy french bikes, FFS but one that is 100% complete, and has its carte gris with it, and show some pics here before
you part with cash for it.preferably not one of these junk knackered 2 strokes that are being brought over.
I am still looking for the info I think I might have; I got a stack of french bike mags here from the 1990s
[how much did you pay for it?]
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i paid 850 euro.
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750 quids is quite a lot for that, especially in Ireland where I reckon there is less demand for french bikes than here.
Are you sure you weren't bid up?
Up to you now which way you jump, me? I'd bung it on ebay and see what it fetched.
probably cost 100-150€ in a french yard sale.
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Just think, if that was a crappy old Brough SS100 it would only be worth £200k.
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I had 3 Broughs through my hands in the 1970s
never again.
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^^wanna know more . werent the motors JAP ? finnicky ? lucas problems ?
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one had an ohv jap others SS80 with Matchless engines, and another i forgot a 680 spring frame.
These things are bought by people who have bought into the Bullshit and investment crap and generally can't ride a bike.
I exclude people who have owned their bikes for a long time. Those get to ride them.
Jap engines were always primitive, exposed valves,pilgrim pumps, oil oil chucked all over, fragile soldered tanks.
Sturmey gearboxes not really up to the power of the Jap engines, later upright norton boxes with those silly breakable lugs and exposed linkages.
Just bought in parts like many other bikes of the era, about the only thing made in the BS works was the frame and the tank, soldered because they couldn't afford press work.
Rear hubs were Royal Enfield and I know many more war Nortons have been split just for those hubs. Faking or fiddling scrap Broughs is big business
I had one with a petrol tube sidecar that I could not get a 1000quid for, sold it into the trade at my cost. I found the owners to be as tightfisted as Vincent owners. [I must admit that todays silly prices rankle a bit].
The Brough myth is all bullshite and George Brough was a master of it.
As for ooooh Lawrence of Arabia rode them, don't get me started on the myth of that nonce. >:(
Let those who have the money buy them, leaves more rideable bikes for the rest.
have I made my point? ;D
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tell us how you really feel
good to get feed back , not that Im in the auction house for one of these . Im not surprised to read what you saying . I was gonna post in other thread that the BS and coventry had the same engine .
I guessed the only thing BS was the basic chassis .
its unbeleivable that people with lots of dosh go for mc . why ?
a new bench mark pops up and the rich folk flock to buy . look at price on HD knuckleheads for god sake . notice a few japan HD bikes are on ebay now , maybe its worn off now ?
the millionaires might go back to the golf course
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Motorcycles like this are portable property, easy to hide from the tax man, and possibly a good way of money laundering.
They'll never be ridden again.
Those JAP V twin engines went in quite a few bikes, as well as Morgans but I'd rather have a Coventry Eagle Flying eight although they get near Brough prices now.
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Your first statement is spot on .No ,not me......As for Jap Vtwins ,most I see around came from rail trolleys and factory trucks.....Not according to the tossers who reckon they are from some unknown BS .Most unusual place for a Jap KT ive seen was as starter on a Ruston motor in big crawler crane....70RB.?....Factory fitted original.
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Allegedly the quick and dirty way to tell a JAP bike engine from one from an industrial engine is the bike crankshaft will have a tapered crankshaft for the drive while the industrial unit will have a parallel keyed shaft.
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a few more pics of carb as promised.
https://i.postimg.cc/L6LCF9yf/WP_20181001_09_56_39_Pro_LI.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/XvQ11ssz/WP_20181001_09_57_14_Pro_LI.jpg
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Sorry old chap, this bike is a lash up, that engine is out of a lawnmower or some other industrial application.
If you look at the engine plates you will see there is an extra hole sticking out of the front, a sure sign that engine is not out that frame.
I have seen this kind of set up before.
The carb position is all wrong, and I'm unhappy about the gearbox and the way it is fitted.
Did I ask if it was ever registered in Ireland?
On the head-stock, and as is common to most bikes on the continong, you should have a small plate on which are stamped various details about the bike, model, engine size, date of manufacture and so on. Is there one?
It may even have started life as a Kohler-Escoffier, sister to Monet Goyon, like AJS/Matchless.
Time to make a hard decision I think, but FFS, do not spend any money on it,cut your losses.
plate will look similar to this https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Plaque-de-cadre-moto-Peugeot-/173502648382?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l44720
or http://guigui-monetgoyons6vu.blogspot.com/2014/02/plaque-de-cadre.html
and here is a site covering Monet Goyon two strokes for you to look over.
http://www.monet-goyon.net/2tempsAVG.html
I might be wrong about that extra hole, seems to be one on these, so far type ZA2 1931 look close to what yours is meant to be.
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I agree, the position of that carb says "lawnmower" rather than "bike".
There's too much of a mix of "shiny" and "rusty" for this to be anything other than a lash. If you could get it running for peanuts then it could be a bit of fun for you but you really don't want to be shelling-out for any sort of restoration.
Just had a thought....given the industrial carb position and the extra bracing on the frame, maybe this started out as one of those three-wheel delivery trucks with two front and one rear wheel, and the articulated front load bed?
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https://www.google.com/search?q=Monet+%26+Goyon+147cc+type+%22ZA2%22&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj0l97t2eXdAhUGU1AKHbf8AdAQ_AUIDygC&biw=1600&bih=747#imgrc=JHyKUUqm0hQ3nM:
https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/bf11/auction/lots/r122-1930-monet-goyon-147-cc
https://cyclememory.org/model/img/m_MonetGoyonZA2--_big.jpg
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Possible Rex, but I'm not sure.
I'm now wondering if it's not a case of maybe just a top end thats wrong? bunged on just to keep it going?
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Hi All,
Going OT here somewhat
Allegedly the quick and dirty way to tell a JAP bike engine from one from an industrial engine is the bike crankshaft will have a tapered crankshaft for the drive while the industrial unit will have a parallel keyed shaft.
Not always the case,
Usually industrial engines will show some evidence of a cooling fan or shroud mountings and quite a lot have either extended crank or cam shafts to drive the cooling fan or for a starting handle
I visited the so called "National motorcycle museum" in USA a couple of weeks age where I saw a JAP 600 industrial engine labelled "JAP from the Teens", (it was more than likely ex Howard Gem rotovator as it was identical to one I have) .. The person in charge was happy to take note of the correction I offered ::) ::)
John
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The JAP 500 and 600 singles ex rotavators generallly have a mounting flange around the drive side crankcase......The ones that are nearly pure motorbike engine are the ones from Autotrucks,both 600s and 750 s,the 1000cc ones from Lister rail trolleys,and the starting engines that were commonly found on portable air compressors.Lister trucks had JAP engines almost exclusively(a few SA s) up until 1962,when the Lister family sold out to Hawker Siddely.......the autotruck era was over by then anyway.Ive seen claims that Listers sold nearly 3/4 million autotrucks......thats a lot of JAPs....Air compressors with Dorman and Ruston engines always had Jap starting engines.....And recently I found the bits to refit a JAP engine to a compressor ,so it could be restored.....They even have Amal slide carbies with a twist grip and advance for the BTH mag on the lever that engages the clutch to the pinion...A few chugs ,and a big 6 cyl diesel fires up....The roller bearing in JAPs suffer from brinelling due to vibration .
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Sorry old chap, this bike is a lash up, that engine is out of a lawnmower or some other industrial application.
If you look at the engine plates you will see there is an extra hole sticking out of the front, a sure sign that engine is not out that frame.
I have seen this kind of set up before.
The carb position is all wrong, and I'm unhappy about the gearbox and the way it is fitted.
Did I ask if it was ever registered in Ireland?
On the head-stock, and as is common to most bikes on the continong, you should have a small plate on which are stamped various details about the bike, model, engine size, date of manufacture and so on. Is there one?
It may even have started life as a Kohler-Escoffier, sister to Monet Goyon, like AJS/Matchless.
Time to make a hard decision I think, but FFS, do not spend any money on it,cut your losses.
plate will look similar to this https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Plaque-de-cadre-moto-Peugeot-/173502648382?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l44720
or http://guigui-monetgoyons6vu.blogspot.com/2014/02/plaque-de-cadre.html
and here is a site covering Monet Goyon two strokes for you to look over.
http://www.monet-goyon.net/2tempsAVG.html
I might be wrong about that extra hole, seems to be one on these, so far type ZA2 1931 look close to what yours is meant to be.
according to the Villiers website the engine is definitely designed for a motorcycle and made for 1 year only a 247cc, it has a Monet Goyon brass badge on the front but nothing else written on it, the only other thing is the number 38082
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Villiers engines are notoriously difficult to date, so many variations of the same unit for different purposes. Also Villiers engines were made under license in France.
Is this Monet Goyon plate on the engine or the frame, likewise where is the number to be found?
That brass elbow which the carb is on is definitely not right, carb would be facing forwards, and it would look less industrial.
To be sure of the capacity you'd need to measure the bore size.
Where is the Villiers site you referred to?
The only engine of your type I can find in a quick search
In September 1922 Villiers announced the details of their new 1923 engine range,[9] which included 147 cc, 250 cc and 343 cc engines. These engines featured a radial finned cylinder head, with both the inlet and exhaust port being at the front of the engine, and they all had the Villiers flywheel-magneto. While the 147 cc relied on petrol-oil mixture for crankshaft lubrication, the two larger engines used a separate oil feed system. The new 250 cc engine produced 25 per cent more power than the older 269 cc engine.
[/i]
So you could even have a 300cc unit. I still think your engine is older than the bike and the bike is a mix of parts. My long experience of french bikes makes me 80% certain. during the war years parts were not available and Adolfs scrap metal merchants did a through job of clearing France of old vehicles.
I have seen some mongrelised bikes over there you'd barely credit, the French are very reluctant to let any decent pre war bike go out of France, more so now that its near impossible to get one registered without its original paperwork.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Villiers_300_cc_engine_1926.jpg/220px-Villiers_300_cc_engine_1926.jpg)
More better. more detailed and clearer pics needed from you to get much further.
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Hi All,
Going OT here somewhat
I visited the so called "National motorcycle museum" in USA a couple of weeks age where I saw a JAP 600 industrial engine labelled "JAP from the Teens", (it was more than likely ex Howard Gem rotovator as it was identical to one I have) .. The person in charge was happy to take note of the correction I offered ::) ::)
John
Many years ago when I worked as an agricultural machine fitter (no not HDs) Howard Gems were my favourite job - especially as they paid standard bonus as they'd never been timed so I could spend as long as I liked on them......
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I have lost count of the number of blobber/crapper/custom/board tracker /steam punk rubbish offered by the pig ignorant on ebay with some industrial JAP/Villiers/Sturmey Archer engine shoe horned into some butchered frame and cycle parts.
Even Norton side-valve engines got press ganged into industrial three wheelers and delivery vans.
Next time someone comes in here with this exported french two stroke scrap I am going to try very hard to ignore it, does my blood pressure no good at all. >:(
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the brass plate is on the front forks the number is stamped into the frame above the gearbox.
http://www.ahmrc.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/36-villiers-engines-part-1.pdf
my engine has Mark V11 A cast into it and as far as I can tell made in 1924/25
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You cannot make the fact fit a fake, no matter how hard you try.
Ok lets accept your engine is dated 1924/5 yet you reckon you bike is possibly 1930-ish, I'll ignore my idea the bike is much later than that,so why would the maker fit an engine 5yrs out of date?
A Monet Goyon of 1925 and that engine had belt drive, and did not have a saddle tank.
Accept that Villiers engines were widely used in all sorts of applications, not just bikes, and you have made an expensive mistake, much the same as many of us on here have done in the past.
I can't help you any more.
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Even Norton side-valve engines got press ganged into industrial three wheelers and delivery vans.
Not to mention the Norton Trusty tractor which was a Big 4 IIRC.
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get in contact with monet owners uk or villiers stationary motor group of some sort to narrow things down and cross reference . try find out what it isnt . compare frame castings etc
or compile info and sell bike as is
when the guy said "racing" would that be endurance or ulster ? yes I am serious ... I know nothing about french bikes , french 2 strokes or french 2 stroke racers
Im just be relieved I didnt buy it . I dont buy anything unless I can see a faint "Brough" on the tank or faded "E . P " under the seat
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monet owners uk
There is no such thing; there is not even a dedicated M-G club in france; their bike clubs tend to be regional.
hen the guy said "racing" would that be endurance or ulster ? yes I am serious ... I know nothing about french bikes
That is obvious I'm afraid.
Im just be relieved I didnt buy it
you got that right at least.
I am guessing you are not in the Uk??
I like french bikes of the inter war years and even some of the 1950s, I have had a few.
Some of them had a lot going for them, big section tyres, bigger brakes, proper bearings in the wheels, electric lights as standard when we still had gas as an option; castings tended to have wider joint faces so oil tight; unit construction and so on.
But their metallurgy lagged behind ours.
Very innovative designs, lots of four cylinder bikes some of which got to the production stage.
Quirky styling and colour schemes, not everyone's taste here.
But, you need to be au fait with french history of the 1930s; the french govt and insurance co., conspired against two wheels which is why the emphasis was on cheap lightweight low powered runabouts.
1940 stuffed the rest till 1944 and the 1950s were not a prosperous time in France especially in the very rural parts which provides the Barns and cellars these rubbish botched incomplete bikes tend to be unearthed from.
Add to that this tendency of the newbies to think every pile of junk has been cherished and kept 'original' for 50 or more years and you have a recipe for disappointment.
If only they'd asked around for opinions before they buy, they'd get to enjoy their old bikes. And not throw money down the drain.
If that bike was ever a racer I got a date with kelly Brooks tomorrow; the bloke whispering in the OPs ear at that auction had been snogging the Blarney stone.
Almost every french bike that pops up on here has been an incomplete wreck.
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lol go easy on the blood presure , garlic supposed to be good for that.
wasnt there 2 stroke class racing ? ......(call it going off topic) . Im thinking Scott flying squirrel
not Monet Goya .
y never know we might get you there yet with this Kelly Brooks . forget the garlic gonna need more than that
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As far as I'm aware in the era when Scott competed in races (pre-war) they weren't given any concession for being two-strokes and both engine types raced together.
Little French commuter two-strokes are as different from virtually hand-built to order Scotts as it's possible to be.
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wasnt there 2 stroke class racing ? ......(call it going off topic) . Im thinking Scott flying squirrel
not Monet Goya .
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Ask your doctor to up your meds.
The depth of your ignorance about motorcycle history is bottomless..
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That is no way for one advanced member to opine on a fellow advanced member.
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come on , Im laughing . hands up who thinks of Franch when they think of a Motorcycle ?
DONT let motorcycles upset ya . I think the OP has slinked away . poor buggers probably too scared . at least he admitted he bought the thing .
no one noticed my "Monet Goya" thing , like a painting ....... no
in usa theres an amca judge who reels info on indians fairly regularly , usually hes wrong but hes still an amca judge .
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The first Nortons used French engines.
Motobecane were once among the largest bike manufacturers in the world, and were a damn site more successfull than american tractor makers.
in usa theres an amca judge who reels info on indians fairly regularly , usually hes wrong but hes still an amca judge .
Incomprehensible phrase, but I thought you were a septic all along.
Which explains your ignorance of anything east of Florida.
So if you think my information re this bike is wrong, please elucidate and correct me.
Your "Monet Goya" I just assumed was your normal ungrammatical ill spelt illiterate american usage of our mother tongue, as over here we tend to make allowances for your lack of education.