classic motorcycle forum
The VintageBike Message Board => Autojumble => Topic started by: Mobike on February 19, 2019, 11:47:37 PM
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I have recently bought a 350cc side valve JAP engine and require a few parts ,anyone have anything to help me get it up and running?
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It's usually helpful if you say what parts you are after. After all, we can see your photo is of the engine actually running.
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It's usually helpful if you say what parts you are after. After all, we can see your photo is of the engine actually running.
I’m glad I wasn’t the only one that noticed it. If the engine is running why do you need parts?
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That stationary engine mag won't help matters, is this one of those 'custom' things made out of lawn mower bits? I recognise that trumpet exhaust from an ebay ad,
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He did say he needed parts to get it "up and running". However you're quite right that the parts should be identified.
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Firstly thank you for your replies,hopefully someone has knowledge of these engines ?
I have an interest in "all" things old,especially mechanical!
Currently my house is up for sale and my "new mower" will be another "vintage one"!
Yes,well spotted it was running for about 30 seconds !
Until the oil pump I was fixated on from the first cough,failed to show any oil ! I have since primed both flow pipes from tank to pump,and from pump to the engine along with the pump sight glass...is it meant to be full or just a trickle?
I have since ran it briefly ,to check "flow ?"but having no idea what the pump output should be ,I have decided to hold off running it and ask for help from hopefully the " more knowledgable " on here.
In my experience other enthusiasts usually soak up useful information not always freely available elsewhere!
I have tried Google searches with little results,so thought as its a "mower engine"I would try a mower forum.
At this moment information is the main thing I need.a replacement pump possibly.An exhaust nut so I can fit a "proper "down pipe on and I have removed the ridiculous bell mouth exhaust trumpet!
And yes correct on spotting it was on eBay .
I have a 51 AJS 500 m18,a54 BSA B31 350cc,on the road to get my classic bike fix ,a 1946 c11 (girder forks,rigid rear)250ohv.project (getting close).
I bought this as a bit of fun. i obtained it for what i felt was "the right price and I have 3 spare ("correct"engines I can put in this frame if not,though I m hopeful if it Can be made to run properly?
The mag was rebuilt a couple of years back,as was the villiers carb.
I would appreciate any help regarding the oil pump ( it appears adjustable ?)is it meant to be just a drip?
Also how to set up the Villiers carb correctly,the timing seems to be ok.
It has good compression but I feel it is not set up (carb)
Any helpful input would be appreciated.
Many thanks,David
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Hi David,
It looks like a Pilgrim pump ?
Yes, they are adjustable
Unscrew the adjusting wheel at least one full turn from fully clockwise and run the engine to see if there's some action
You could prime the engine by adding about 150ml of oil to the crankcase through the union on top of the crankcase
This will give enough oil to the engine for quite a while
A rough guide to the pump setting is about 8 drops a minute with a slow running engine
"Petes Bikes" advertise Pilgrim pump repairs and parts in Old Bike Mart
IKBA about Villiers carbs
Meetens may have an exhaust nut? or butter up a mate with a lathe
John
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So, you don't really want parts so much as information. That makes life a bit easier.
First, the Pilgrim Pump. As well as Chaterleas advice there is plentiful info in the VMCC Library. It's open to non members and you want a copy of the Bob McGrath Pilgrim booklet which will give you chapter and verse.
Second, all Villiers motorcycle carbs are intended solely for two -strokes running on a mixture of petrol and oil and are jetted accordingly. No information exists on adapting them to elderly four stroke engines. You really are on your own there unless you find another tragic who has gone down this path before you. Your sanity requires fitting a more appropriate carb such as an AMAL as on your B31.
Third, the engine itself. Give us the engine number details and we can date it. Even the spares for that matter. Being fitted with the Pilgrim pump shows it has a total loss oiling system so don't let the oil tank get below about a third full.
General J.A.P. info abounds in both the VMCC Library and the NMM bookshop. Lawnmower forums are an obvious point of call as well.
Finally, what is the engine mounted in? What are the cycle parts? A photo would be nice. The deal is we give what help we can. You provide pretty pictures to keep us happy.
Looking forward to the next instalment. Cheers,
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This "bike" an assemblage of random unrelated parts, has been on here before sometime back.
There is nothing pretty about it. :(
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Many thanks to those with" useful information,"as has been mentioned an Amal carb may be the easiest answer !(thanks Chater lea)
I have several so will look up what I have that may be compatible as the engine has inlet stub not flange.
Apparently Villiers owned JAP post WW2 and as far as I can tell from the sparse information ?the carb is correct for this engine.
I bought this as it has a nice Bsa c11 plunger frame 1954 (stove enammeled) ,forks,wheels etc in fair order even what chrome is fitted is sound.The four speed gear box selects gears nicely.
The engine is an Industrial unit as denoted by its "I" preceding the engine number I believe 1936 vintage originally fitted to an Atco "deluxe" 20" mower.
It is"as bought by me",I was not responsible for killing any machines or mowers,possibly I may( when I 've had my fun tinkering )remember that ? even return it back to its roots (c11)
After cleaning the carb and adjusting the oil pump it does (now) run and seems to be moving oil.
Once again ,thanks to those for your "helpful"assistance ,I will look up on the VMCC website ,as a paying member might as well enjoy the benefits!
Tragic ? Yes some really do need to lighten up!
Happy days
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The initial "I" in the engine number identifies the cubic capacity of the cylinder as 350cc. It has nothing to do with "Industrial" The rest of the engine number serves to identify year, type of lubrication, sporting or racing engine, deviations from standard and so on, hence the request for full information. J.A.P. always referred to this sort of engine as "motorcycle type"even though it might be used in a non motor cycle application such as a lawnmower or industrial trolley. A J.A.P industrial engine is a quite different kettle of fish.
J.A.P. fitted as standard an Amal 274/022 R to this era of 350 sidevalve single.
Forum members are always happy to assist if they can but finding out what the person wants can sometimes be like pulling teeth hence a degree of testiness at times.. It's also a two way thing. We want to get satisfaction out of the transaction as well as the enquirer. We actually do this for fun, nothing else.
Cheers,
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Fun, you call it?
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Once again thank s very much for your indulgence in my current project!
Nice to know some have the knowledge and are willing to expand mine and others in the process.
The engine / type no is IY/O 30252/MS I have nt as yet found any other marks and it lacks the usual J.A.P.
Markings,which I took as it being an Industrial engine,I "think" I read somewhere it dates from 1936?
It has exposed tappets which on later engines have a covering plate.
.I happily stand corrected!
As I said previously I have an interest in things mechanical and my late father who was a dedicated motorcycle enthusiast ,had many happy experiences with numerous J.A.P powered machines.
This is what initially sparked my interest in this project...Along with owning Rudges,and many other machines I had never heard of,Alldays and Onions and others that he had the pleasure ( ? )of.
He also tuned and briefly raced a Triumph tiger 1937 at brands and was in one of John Surtees early races at Brands Hatch ,when he too was mounted on a Tiger !
So as you see, my enthusiasm outstrips my means!
My choice if it were an option would be to own an early Triumph Tiger but being retired on a limited budget,my
" fun"comes in less "exotic"machinery....
By the way, if any better equipped enthusiasts own a lathe and fancy a project ,i m still looking for a nut for the exhaust !
Obviously happy to cover costs : )
Once again many thanks for your help.
David.
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Hi David,
You sound like the standard motorcyclist. Working with a small budget and just a few too many bikes for the finances to hand. Nothing unusual there. Join the clan.
Your engine number tells a lot but not all. IY denotes a 350cc sidevalve single of 70 x 90 bore and stroke. J.A.P made a variety of 350 sidevalve singles of varying bore and stroke each with their own identifying letter so don't be surprised if you find another 350 sidevalve with a different identifying letter. For some reason the factory added a Y to some sidevalve ID's but not all I've never seen any explanation for it. Some lists say the Y denotes a twin port head on J.A.P. OHV models but that isn't the case with a side valve engine is it, so I find it a bit of a mystery. The "O" after the / denotes the year. In this case 1938. At first J.A.P. used individual letters from a code word to identify the year of manufacture but were still making engines when they came to the end of it so then used the rest of the alphabet in a nonsense word. Blindingly clear when all written down but complete gibberish otherwise. Anyway, "O" is 1938.
Nothing to say about the actual number. As with common industry practice that is the unique number for that engine. It is what it is.
Finally we come to the suffix letters, those after the number, MS in your case. These denote any minor changes from standard specification but these are legion. To my knowledge no one has ever listed the myriad minor changes from standard that each purchaser required for the particular engine use they had in mind. Yours for example has an unusually bent inlet manifold. Does one of the suffix letters refer to that? Who knows.
The exposed tappets are a nothing. It's just an obsolete practice which J.A.P never bothered to up date on engines used in non-motorcycle applications. They are very good for impressing the natives.
As far as seeking out an enthusiast with a lathe who may be able to assist I'd suggest looking up your local model engineering club. You are far more likely to find a lathe owner there and like as not quite a few ex-motorcyclists as well. They may very well enjoy being sucked into a fun project.
Finally, I like the idea of a 350 sidevalve in a "C" series Beesa. Theoretically it should give you a lot more grunt but be aware that sort of J.A.P engine was built for durability and reliability not power. It was deliberately built as a plodder. Soft cams, low compression, small carb and so on. That said it probably has good potential to see off any C11 you come across once you get it properly sorted. Phil Irving's 'Tuning for Speed' will be compulsory reading. Particularly as you say you have a few spare engines.
Cheers,
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,i m still looking for a nut for the exhaust !
Do you have the dimensions, particularly the thread form.
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The interesting bit is missing from the pic...........I assume the mag is run at engine speed from the timing side mainshaft....so the motor appears to be from an Atco .with a extension for a crankhandle...........looks like you might need to keep your leg and the chain separated..........Funny thing ,I was given half a dozen Japs from rail trolleys......only singles ,unfortunately,but they all had a ugly addition to the timing case for a crankhandle.....So I left them for the scrappie.I did snafle a 750 twin ,fortunately,who d a thunk theyd ever be selling for princely sums.............are so many people restoring Autotrucks.?
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Thanks 33d6 that information is very useful has been noted.
I have no expectations of breaking any speed records,just an interest and curiosity to try something a bit off the beaten track!
As much a part of this hobby is as you say not the destination but finding out and researching what it is !
Funny you should mention "Tuning for speed " I still have my father's copy and wish I were as skilled as he!
Once again many thanks for your help .
Regards David
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Hello,
I read on another forum that it is 2" 20tpi ,not sure if that's correct but it s the only reference I have found at this time.
Thanks for your reply,regards David
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There is a bit of JAP stuff on ebay from time to time............every now and again someone converts a V twin to OHV and offers the SV bits for sale.......although the exhaust nuts are pretty rare............I would think you would have to make your own........20 tpi does ring a bell......Im pretty sure the motors only use two different pitches 26tpi for all the nuts and bolts,and 20 tpi for the intake spigot and exhaust nuts...........Its actually a very fine thread for cast iron,but seems to hold up OK.
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I read on another forum that it is 2" 20tpi ,not sure if that's correct
2” x20 TPI is possible though I somehow think it’s a little on the large side.
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i checked the thread on a 750 sv twin,and its 1 3/4",and thats a 70mm bore barrel............Ive also got a 85mm bore barrel,checked and its 2"....thats a 500sv.
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Yes,I thought it sounded a bit on the large side!
I will check it out later ,thanks for your reply,David
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Have nt had time to remove existing exhaust stub but approximately 1 5/8ths ?
I will remove it tomorrow and get a better idea,
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Is this the one
http://www.vintage-motorcycle.com/index.php?language=en&site=4&pid=24&id=26427&limit=0
If so then it probably is a 2” dia thread.
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Hi All
The OHV JAP engines use the 2in, thread even the 250cc
The British Only one linked to is priced at €99 :o :o :o
I already suggested "Meetens" who have old stock of JAP and Villiers industrial engine parts for the exhaust nut
or whittle one up on the lathe ;D
John
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Yes,that's the one I found ! Looks like I better start a fund?
After seeing their prices ,that was what prompted my request if anyone has an old useable one they might sell?not worried about the finish as long as thread is usable .
Exhaust is 1 3/4" .
I had the head/ barrel off today,bore looks sound slight wear but rings and piston all sound.Plenty of oil evident,so I have reduced the pump setting as it s still quite Smokey.
Gradually increasing the running time now i know the pump is working,hopefully turning clockwise on the pilgrim pump does reduce flow? it seems to be running/starting a bit more reliably now.
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Funny isn't it. As with David I looked at the price of that new stainless steel exhaust nut but instead thought they couldn't be making much selling them at that price. To make things on my lathe I duck and weave buying cheap lengths of stainless from a bloke who deals in factory remnants, odd job lots and so on. I can't get it any cheaper. Given the diameter of bar stock required to make that size of nut is far too large to slide through the head stock of my lathe I'd also have to pay to have the bar stock cut in to appropriate lengths to suit. To make an exhaust nut for each of Davids engines I'd have made a severe dent in that 99 pound just to get the material to start.
All of this assumes I have managed to find a hexagonal bar stock of the right size. Reality is I wouldn't and would have to use round bar and mill the hexagon on as well. Another operation requiring another machine and taking more time and effort.
Of course a modern machine shop would use a CNC machining centre to combine these operations and could churn out exhaust nuts ad nauseam. Unfortunately to purchase and set up an machining centre of the size needed runs in to six figures. Just a tad beyond my budget.
What I'm trying to say is that I find a J.A.P. stainless steel exhaust nut at 99 pound to be very reasonable. Luckily they rarely wear out. Most are lost by careless owners.
Finally, Pilgrim pump. Screw the adjuster out to increase flow, screw it in to reduce it. This assumes no internal wear.
Cheers,
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Unfortunately I have to agree, making one out of mild steel or brass would be slightly easier but still involve a fair bit of organisation before any machining was done. Another problem would be that to ensure a good fit of the nut, whoever makes one would Be better off having an exhaust stub to use as a gauge.
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Agreed. I wouldn't attempt to make something like that without being able to try the thread for fit.
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Ah well,it was a thought.
For my purposes an older slightly battered nut would be acceptable/preferable as it's only a bit of fun, and a new one would show up the rest of it!
l will hold off on that for now as it's coming up to the auto jumble season,my brothers always commenting on my " eagle eyes"you never know!
David
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Hi David,
Do you think we could have a few photos of the whole bike? So far we are running on imagination and good look at it all would be terrific.
Personally I think you have the beginnings of a really fun special. One which could keep you entertained for years and be good enough to ride all over the country should you wish.
Any chance of a photo or two?
Cheers,
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Come on chaps, it's not that hard. I made this for the Sunbeam using thick walled tube:
(http://www.iansoady.org.uk/Sunbeam/images/exhaust%20nut.JPG)
Used a Chinese 3,5" lathe. Admittedly getting the thread right was tricky but my turning is hardly expert standard. The slots were cut with hacksaw and file.
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Hi All,
I have a couple of sv JAP engines, one in a little OK Supreme 285cc on that engine the exhaust threads
had mostly rusted away, I had to make a new exhaust pipe anyway as the original was missing
I just made a sleeve that was a push fit up over the stub and welded this to the pipe, a little sealer and all is fine ;D
The second JAP is on a Howard Rotovator :o 600cc, that also now relies on a pipe clamped over the stub :(
So for a "ratty" special there's no need to spend €99 on an exhaust nut thats too big anyway
John
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I suppose it depends on your intent. Just a bit of fun or something you want to show off a little. All options are reasonable but in the end it's what the owner wants isn't it. I confess something about this particular combination of engine and bike appeals to my inner idiot but I've no idea why.
Cheers,
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Hi all,
Thanks for your input,as I mentioned previously my late father always spoke fondly of JAP engines he had owned.
I was offered a beautiful 're built 500cc Ohv engine complete with mag and carb several years back,but it's owner insisted he wanted £500( well worth the money)for it.Sadly at that time work was slow and my slightly lesser offer (400)was nt accepted,he said a " friend " was going to get him his 500 pounds.
Next time I spoke to him the " friend" Had told him he only got 350 pounds for it.....
Hence years later my purchase of this as a project,it is a JAP engine albeit not the one I would have liked,but it is giving me something to play with!
I will post a few pics on here when it's looking a bit more presentable,as so far I 've just been getting it running better and checking the motor out.
The existing exhaust/stub? Is currently just pushed into the exhaust port and retained by a bracket welded to the pipe fixing to an engine mount bolt.It does seem to work so for now at least I 'll live with it.
I am hoping to get a straight inlet to replace the curved one and a stub fit 1" Amal to suit,I have a few Amal carbs but they are bolt on and I don't have welding gear to alter the inlet to take them.
The other similar JAP engines I 've seen ,have a long induction tube to take the carb clear of fouling the mag.
Just another thought,would a different mag make any difference ?
Obviously the one fitted is I believe from when the engine was possibly originally from an Atco 20" deluxe mower ?
Would a different mag (as used on motorcycles with JAP engines)make any difference?
It keeps me occupied and there is always a c11 side valve motor option,or a c11 Ohv bored out to 290cc using a Hillman imp piston....should keep my interest going for awhile!
Cheers
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Hi Mobike,
A manual advance magneto would give better performance than the fixed wico
Lawnmower engines tend to be run at one speed so fixed ignition works
A rotating coil mag would be better running at half engine speed too, high revs can damage them
Be careful trying to unscrew the inlet pipe, the one on my sv and others I have seen are Left hand thread
I do not know why this is ???? and cannot see a reason why???
John
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Unfortunately ,ebay has inflated magneto prices beyond reason.........you used to be able to get BTH and Lucas mags from engines like Listers and Petters for $2 each at swaps once ,now everyone is asking $200 each for dud mags,than never been within 100 yds of a motorbike...........same with JAP sidevalves .....used to get them with scrap machines ....Ive got a couple of very nice 500 and 600 sv s used as starting engines on Rustons and Dormans.....pure bike engines used to rotate big diesels to start............then there the Autotruck 750 twins ........and the Autorail 1000s...........I remeber when the Messageries Martimes wharf next to the customs house closed ,the autorails were just run off the wharf into the river for laughs.
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Hi all,
Yes the price of mags is pretty high ,I do however have a spare mag for my B31...
I will look it out tomorrow and look at it with " new " eyes! Unsure of the rotation on both so need to check that first.
Thanks for the warning about the thread on the inlet manifold John,,I m always wary of disturbing anything that has potentially not been disturbed for a long time!
Might not have spotted that one as it's tightened well into the head!
I have removed both turrets from the head and also the plug/bolt on the left side,which all came free fairly easily,so perhaps been off in recent times.
The plug/bolt on the left side of the head was presumably for a decompressor in another use?
As mine has one on the crank case obviously that position isn't required.
Another interesting thing I turned up on the net,apparently JAP moved the plug position to the rear of the head and it improved performance and top speed performance.I think it was for a T.T. race.
I really enjoy sifting through all the information out there!
The head on mine has a "flat " area at the same position but it has nt been machined.
My aim is to just get it rideable and see how it feels before I start throwing any money at it.
If the engine performs reasonably well,I have a 1946 girder fork / rigid rear it would look very good in.....(dont panic!not altering it in any way as i may one day restore it to standard!)
On the subject of fitting a different engine in a motorcycle as in Bsa frame /JAP engine how does that work with DVLA?
Do you just make an application and they take it for what it is, or is it more messy?
Thanks again for your help and interest.
Cheers David
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The DVLA aren't too bad, the problem will be getting some sort of acceptable dating certificate for it. If the person doing the dating cert makes a big deal of it being non-standard and a recent build then the DVLA can get funny.
Forget the VMCC for a dating cert. When they request pics of the forks, gearbox, hubs etc you know you're knackered from the start..
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Thanks Rex,it did come with a dating letter from the BSA owners club dating back to 2015.
But it must have had a standard engine fitted back then as it is a different number?
I ll have to look into that in more detail,
Thanks David
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Our Dating Officer for the REOC tells me Dating Certs are now only good for one year. Although l can’t see why, if a thing is identified one day why would it be different the next? Anyway, beware!
REgards, Mark
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Yes it does seem a bit picky!
Still I guess it keeps the system going!
I have contact details of someone that deals with such matters so will have to have a chat !
Cheers David
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For the curious !
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You wont be allowed to have an exposed chain drive like that.....it contravenes the machinery guarding laws,let alone MOT.......I know its exempt MOT,but still an unsafe machine,no matter how old...........i suspect you will have to organize a mag drive from the LHS engine primary sprocket........which many vintage bikes did have............being a tin chaincase ,it will be easy to organize.
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It could be quite fun but at the end of the day I wouldn't spend the time and effort necessary. But each to their own.
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Each to their own, to me its junk.
At Shepton there was an Ariel Colt with a modern engine in it, which was neat tidy and roadworthy, the very opposite of this pile of tat, wich does no-one any favours and just takes the piss out of historic vehicle exemptions.
Lets hope its just for limping around a backyard somewhere. Not the road.
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To those that are mortally offended by my subject matter,I have a 51 500 ajs and a b31 fitted with a 32 competition engine,both in very good restored condition!
I have owned the project for a week!
Of course bare chains etc need attention and I am already sourcing possibilities.
Based on some comments I suppose putting a 47 competition engine in a 54 plunger frame is pointless too?
This is a "bit of fun,,,," remember what that is?
Just a little of my background,I nursed my late wife through cancer from start to the end.Even to the extent of keeping her at home to pass away as "she"had requested,against her own family trying to palm her off to hospital even though it was me doing "all" the caring!
So if "My bit of fun offends you" why choose to read it?
I have never been a sheep and followed the crowd,I leave that to others...
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Each to their own, to me its junk.
At Shepton there was an Ariel Colt with a modern engine in it, which was neat tidy and roadworthy,
At a run last year someone turned up on an Ariel Arrow with a Honda CD200 engine fitted. Nice job, and you had to look twice to even notice the change.
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The JAP engines your father enthused about were not cooking ex agricutural engines but entirely different hot stuff.
I am not mortally offended but I do spend time trying to help inexperienced motorcyclists out, by passing on almost 55 years of knowledge mostly hard won,often expensively. That is advice I used to get paid for.
When confronted with such a pile of kack, not just yours, there are lots of others, I wonder why I should bother, because it will never be a viable motorcycle.
I have been told you also feature it on another site, I am surprised that miserable bunch tolerate it there.
I sympathise with the loss of your wife, although what its got to do with here I don't understand. My first wife spent 13 years as a bedriddren doubly incontinent cabbage, so I share similar grief.
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I agree Rex,there are many "Specials" out there,some not to my taste or possibly yours..But motorcycles and other vehicles have been converted and adapted since they were first madeFor me part of this hobby isnt just about whatever machine i may ride,but to me this hobby encompasses "all" aspects and I don't pre judge someone because they have a passion for Lambretta s,though to me personally they do not appeal!
I can appreciate a Brough Superior or such as much as a Bsa Bantam...
T he many early machines had their beginings using engines etc produced by others.J.AP. engines being a good example,they were used by many from Excelsior to Brough superior!
I am retired on a limited budget ,have had British motorcycles since the age of thirteen ,own a 51 500cc AJS ,a b31 /32which i ride regularly and grew up with a father and elder brothers all riding British motorcycles.
Since buying this project i have spent many hours researching the J.A.P company their engines would often be the topic of conversation my father held them in high regard,along with others he owned,Rudge,Matchless,many more I have forgotten ,Alldays&Onions being one i had to look up having never heard of them!
My late father race tuned (himself) a 1937 Triumph Tiger at Brands Hatch and was in the same races as John Surtees when he made his debut there,also mounted on a Tiger.
For me the "small investment "made buying this project was barely what "I " could pay for the Bsa c11 rolling chassis,which was what I bought the engine was an added interest.
I already have two engines which were made for this machine.
I am not naieve enough for One moment to believe that because the engine was made by JAP it is a racing engine,far from it!
It has the "look" of older machines and it will probably end up in my 1946 girder fork/rigid rear Bsa c11.....
It will give me hours of enjoyment just tinkering and doing " what I want" with my time and money!
It will be used and enjoyed.
It would be nice to see what machines the doom mongers on here own(if any?)
I feel sorry for those that are so fixated in their own ideas,they think anyone else's ideas are not valid .
The VMCC and other clubs say this hobby of ours is doomed as it is only the older folk interested,no wonder if like me they come on here and other forums , genuinely enthusiastic and seeking " helpful advice" from more knowledgeable
? people and get pointless derogatory comments,perhaps those who run this site should consider this?
On a lighter note many thanks to the genuine enthusiasts that have passed on their "useful" knowledge.
I now know more about Pilgrim pumps and no doubt will be asking more questions,if my words are not for you pass by,it's what I shall do ....