classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: Rex on May 08, 2019, 06:37:35 PM
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There's a lot of knowledgeable blokes on here who know about pre-war Villiers-powered tiddlers, so anyone know about a Coventry Eagle "Super Sport" 1931 175c? Appears to be up-together and a runner, and although would probably struggle with the rice pudding skins it has a certain charm. Any thoughts?
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Very lovely - no doubt 33d6 will explain the fine qualities of the 175 cc Super Sport engine. It's pretty special. The c1930 Villiers Super Sport, or the larger 6 port Levis, have surprisingly lively performance, particularly if the rider is not carrying too much "excess baggage". The light weight of the machine itself is undervalued. What a joy it is to have a machine that can be wheeled around, put on and off its stand, and started with ease.
Enjoy!
Leon
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Yes, Leon, I've seen two of these recently. A restored one in the Sydney Powerhouse Museum and an unrestored one in the South Oz Birdwood Museum. The Birdwood one is incorrectly described as having a 150cc engine but it's not. It has a 175cc Super Sport and is identical to the Powerhouse bike..
The major snag with this model Cov Eagle is not the engine but the accompanying two speed gearbox. This is either a major handicap or a riding challenge depending on how you feel on the day. It's fine in top gear but the drop in ratio is so great you are reduced to walking pace the minute you have to change down. I have exactly this issue in my same era Sport (not Super Sport) powered Excelsior. Depending on mood and company it makes for either a fine hill climbing challenge or a bleeding nuisance. Excelsior offered an alternative three speed box which I have in the workshop but not installed in my bike as its top and middle ratios duplicate the two speed box with an ultra low bottom gear underneath that. You can then climb any hill but have to take care you don't fall asleep whilst doing it. Unfortunately these inappropriate ratios are a common problem with many British lightweights. The engine is never a problem the gear ratios are.
Albion knew this and produced their first lightweight four speed box in the early 30's but most manufacturers were reluctant to take it up. Eventually they did offering it as a posh extra. Cov Eagle were doing this by 1934 or so but by that time Villiers no longer made the Super Sport so you only got it in a Cov Eagle fitted with a 'cooking' 150 or 250. Pity about that. Still, lesser engine or no, the overall package with four speed box was better than the earlier version and was faster point to point if not in outright speed.
Finally, the Villiers 175 Super Sport engine was a little ripper and in it's day held every record for both outright speed and endurance in it's class. Every distance record up to 2000 kms and every time record up to 24 hours. They are still the favoured vintage Villiers engine today.
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A couple of pics
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Pretty little jigger, isn't it. And technically much to cast an eye over.
So have you bought it, or still pondering ?
One thing I would comment is that open primary looks like trouble, a more substantial
guard to keep clothing and boots/toes out of that primary chain and clutch looks essential.
Or you'll need to lay in a stock of boot repair materials... ?
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Marvellous! And definitely a riding bike, not a show pony. With the various mods and tweaks I see the owner and I are very much on the same wavelength. He would find much the same on my Excelsior. Look at em.
Transverse 'coffee pot' silencer with single outlet. My preference is for a smaller diameter and shorter tail pipe but domestic harmony requires the tail pipe extend past the foot rest. Oily footprints on kitchen floors aren't popular.
No external oil pipes. I suspect this engine isn't "pure" Super Sports but may be a hybrid built up with a Mk12C bottom end and Super Sport top end. One can do this with all standard Villiers parts without any fancy modifications thus gaining the joys of Super Sport riding without being twitchy about the original Villiers automatic oiling system. Petroil may be crude but it's practical.
One can go a step further and use the special Mk12C bottom end Villiers made solely for Cov Eagle. This has a drive side crankcase modified with mountings for a proper enclosed primary chaincase should an owner wish to go down this track thus meeting R's concerns above. How do I know these things? Because the Cov Eagle owner is riding his and the 33d6 example is still on the building bench.
It has a three speed gearbox fitted. I discussed that in my earlier post. Not a great improvement over the two speed but it does ensure it will not be defeated by any road on any hill.
It has the most practical carb set up with the carb needle adjustable from the handlebars rather than the cheaper and awkward to use rod adjuster fitted directly to the carb. It also has a later model 6E air filter fitted. This makes riding so much easier.
I could go on about the use of modern handlebar levers rather than the original inverted, et, etc, but why? To my mind the owner has built up a very practical and willing bike. I think it's a little ripper.
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Its a pretty little bike,which is not often said about CE s.............the racing primary means you will never need to trim your toenails.
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Someone offered it as a P/X on an Enfield I'm selling, but I wanted second opinions on whether it was a pile-o-parts thrown together or something approaching a desirable bike.
Normally I don't consider any bike below a 350 (and even a 350 reluctantly) so it would probably be more ornament than use to me. The seller seems to have gone cold on the idea anyway.
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Or maybe not. It appears that he's had loss of Internet for the last couple of days. Spoke to the old boy on the phone and he confirmed it's a fully functional oily rag bike and has been used on various runs.
So, the old tricky subject; what would be a fair price in the UK for this bike..any suggestions? Sadly it's devalued price-wise by being a '31 which makes it post-vintage rather than vintage.
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Can't help with your price Rex. Got no idea of UK values but I suspect I'd be very much tempted to buy if I lived there.
You'll be amused to know I've blown your photos up and had as good a nosy as I can and the engine is as I suspected. A Super Sport top end on a Mk12C bottom end. I could just see the initial G of the Mk12C engine number hiding behind the carbie float bowl. It's a well known way of building yourself a Super Sport nowadays. I also saw the bike has no twistgrip but a two lever Villiers throttle fitted. Top lever to raise and lower the needle for starting and best running and the lower as the normal throttle. This is by far the best riding set up for a pre war Villiers as it allows you to give hand signals and to change gear without the engine shutting off as you do it. You learn to execute a fast hand change before the engine can over rev with this set up. Also encourages you to change at exactly the right moment.
Finally it allows you time to give a relaxed and obvious hand signal as you bowl up to an intersection. (Not that everyone understands them nowadays.)
Why anyone would want to trade in such a cutie for an Enfield is beyond me but then again I'm always surprised at how many can't change their riding style to get the best out of early bikes. Maybe he's one of them.
I'd like to know the end of the story.
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I intend to go and see the bike early next week, and thanks partly to the enthusiasm shown on here I may (all being well) end up getting it.
The story goes that the old boy who has it now got it when his old mate (who was a long term owner) partially stripped it and then passed on...seems to be a sadly familiar tale.
The throttle control is a new one on me but I'll give it a whirl. I have a Chief with hand change, foot clutch and grip A/R, and had some hand-change bikes in the past so if they could do it back in 1931 I'm sure I can too... ;)
Supposedly comes with "loads" of engine parts too, so it'll be interesting to see what they might be.
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Well, it now lives in my garage. Doesn't look to be too molested though the seller's use of Nylocs here and there will need rectifying, as will the crazy angle of the rear carrier/basket. There's no lighting coil in the mag-dyno and the lights aren't wired up, plus the light switch is seized solid. The clutch has been relined by Villiers Services but will need further attention as it feels strangely spongy and it drags.
Got most of a spare engine with it, plus a box of about 200 Villiers carbs.
Pleased...so far.
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Nice one. Watching your progress with envy. :D
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The flywheel magneto being minus lighting coils is typical of early 1930's motorcycle electric lighting. The Villiers system only produced alternating current and could not be used for charging a battery as it was. The technology to do this was not yet available to the motorcycle world. To get around this so as to provide a steady beam of light rather than the Villiers flicker several manufacturers(including Coventry Eagle) fitted a 6V dc dynamo driven off the engine shaft by an extra sprocket. This gave means to charge a battery. Very easy to do as it was all standard bicycle sprockets and chain.
The type of dynamo then available was equally primitive as the current produced was unregulated and fluctuated all over the place blowing globes and boiling the battery. This was "controlled" (note quotation marks) by the rider with a half charge resistance fitted in the headlight switch. One glance at the headlight switch will reveal whether you have an original switch fitted, Rex.The half charge resistance is very obvious.
All of the above is high drama if you want to explore the excitement of early 30's lighting but the advent of modern electronics means the original Villiers system can be updated very easily and is by far the easiest way to go. Be aware that Villiers flywheel magnetos were made in paired sets so the brass flywheel and the backing plate share the same lengthy unique number. Just finding another back plate already fitted with lighting coils and using it in conjunction with the flywheel you have is not as simple as it looks.
Welcome to the Wunnerful World of Williers.
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All of the above is high drama if you want to explore the excitement of early 30's lighting but the advent of modern electronics means the original Villiers system can be updated very easily and is by far the easiest way to go.
I'm intrigued. Is there a link to any info on this?
The Coventry Eagle has the frame number 14210, engine number GYF 9828, and spare engine number KZB 595. Any information to be had from that?
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Hi Rex,
I don't know of any links relating to 1930's electrical systems. They don't excite many people. It's back to old fashioned books. About the best I know that gives a broad overview of everything available back then and how it operated is "Modern Motor Cycles" written by Arthur W Judge and published in 3 Volumes by The Caxton Publishing Company, Limited. Clun House, Surrey Street, London, W.C.2 somewhere around 1933. It predates all the modern identification rules used today so I can't be precise about the publication year. Volume II goes into some 120 pages of detail about British electrical systems of the day and covers all makes. I've never found anything better.
"Modern Motor Cycles" is not easy to find and not cheap when you do. I would suggest going to your local proper library and talk to a trained librarian (not a volunteer). They should be able to locate a library holding a set. I'd be amazed if you were allowed to borrow them so plan on an extended library visit to have a good read. If you're a sweet talker they may do an inter library loan so you can read them at your local library without too much travelling.
As far as the wee beast is concerned I'm well pleased to tell you it has a place of honour in the VMCC Register of Machines. Its Register number is 10685 and both frame, engine and reg numbers are as you quote. I have the 1st and 3rd editions of the Register and although it isn't in the 1st edition published 1969 it is in the 3rd edition published 1992 so it has been around in its present form for at least 30 odd years.
Its nice to know this info confirms my earlier advice that the engine is a composite Super Sports top end on a Mk 12C bottom end. Effortless to do with all standard Villiers parts just by re arranging how you assemble them.
The spare engine with the prefix KZB is a 196cc Super Sport made 1929-40 and usually used as a replacement for the 175cc Super Sport. Absolutely no difference in performance from the earlier 175. I have no idea what the extra 'B' at the end of the prefix KZ refers to. Villiers would make minor alterations to their engines to suit various makers and identify them accordingly but many of these identifications have been lost over time. These minor alterations never affected engine operation or repair in any way so are never much concern. The classic example was in 1933 when Douglas mounted a 150cc Mk12C Villiers horizontally in their Douglas Bantam. As the engine was now horizontal the crankcase drain had to be re positioned to suit, otherwise it was halfway up the crankcase. These engines have an extra 'H' after the standard engine number GY prefix so are numbered GYH****. It was nothing that affected the operation of the engine nor its maintenance. As you can imagine these little nonsenses get forgotten over time. Your KZB seems to be one of them.
Do keep us informed. You have the makings of a little ripper of a bike that is much under rated. Just learn to wring its neck. Take no prisoners!
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Thanks for the detailed reply mate. After a lifetime working with Amps and Volts the original Villiers lighting set-up holds no fear, but I'm interested in the modern electronic upgrades you alluded to.
Getting the lights working isn't really a priority, but if I get hold of a lighting coil I'll wire it all in, but if they're difficult to obtain then LED globes front and rear fed of a Cyclon battery (hidden in the toolbox or whatever) would be more than adequate.
First job is to sort the dragging clutch. The last bloke had a reline by Villiers Services but clearly it now needs setting up better as it drags enough to stall the engine and there's a ton of slack in the cable/lever too.
According to info found on the Net, it started life as either a G24 150cc or a G25 200cc. Shame that some sod sold off the original 2-letter four-number reg number though.
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I'd have thought that getting rid of the ton of slack should go a long way to reducing the clutch drag.
I look forward to many stories of trials and tribulations....
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Most of your dragging clutch issues arise from accumulated wear in in every component between the handlebar lever and the clutch. All it takes is a little wear in the clutch lever pivot, the lever pivot on the gearbox plus the 1/4" round it pivots on and so forth through the whole mechanism for all the clutch lever movement to be taken up before it lifts the clutch. You can also bet the adjuster screw in the gear box lever is half worn away making it fussy to align properly.
The clutch pushrod is also noted for boring a recess in the clutch plate which also upsets things. None of it is dramatic wear. Just minor wear in everything that can wear. Its the accumulation that causes the problem.
Later Albion clutches have a mushroom head on the short piece of pushrod that bears against the clutch so you can eliminate that wear point. Nowadays I make all new including a new pushrod and re bush every pivot to get optimum performance at all points. Luckily Albion boxes are idiot simple and so easy to work with. Makers used Albion because they were cheap and unfortunately when you shave costs to the bone to make things cheap it doesn't leave generous allowances for wear. Then again, sort it now and you will never have to do it again in your lifetime.
Finally, modern electrical upgrades. Essentially the original set up was so basic that a modern upgrade merely means a modern solid state rectifier so the battery can get a full charge plus a modern zener diode arrangement to ensure a happy battery plus LED lights. Nothing super dooper and exotic. Merely bringing the electrics up to what is regarded as everyday stuff now but exotic space age stuff when viewed from a 1931 perspective.
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I look forward to many stories of trials and tribulations....
I don't quite know how to take that Ian.. ;)
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In the spirit was made of course.....
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Villiers seem to have invented the flywheel magneto around 1920........think of how many have been made in the century since ..........even now the solid state ignition on little engines is still a flywheel magneto,just has no mechanical parts...I have an antique pump with a Mk 10 /100cc 4 stroke on it,the spark was so weak it couldnt be seen in daylight,yet the little motor starts and runs reliably,and has been used industrially in the years since.Bit smoky tho.