classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => Identify these bikes! => Topic started by: Wavy Gravy on August 30, 2019, 11:46:35 AM
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Sorry these photos are so blurred, but I'm hoping that some one can identify this bike. I did check the registation (AYV 348) with DVLA but it doesnt show up. If its the bike I a hoping it is, I have an interesting story about it.
As this is my first post, I'm not sure if I have attached the photos correctly. If they cant be seen, can someone talk me through the correct way?
TIA
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I wouldn't know what the bike is, but it was registered in London between May '34 and Aug. '35.
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Thats part of the mystery. The bike was owned by the photographer, and I know that he did have an Aunt that lived in Croydon around that time. I'm not sure that was considered London back then. Or was it?
The two photos were taken just outside St. Helens, in what is now known as Merseyside around 1950 or 1951.
Would something registered during that period be a 1934 or 1935 model?
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My bet is its a Levis 350, I had one and they are a damn fine bike.
as for date it could be 1933 model, year of reg is not necessarily year of make,especially in the 1930s slump.
just because they lived in Croyden does not mean it had to be reg in Croyden, if Croyden was considered part of London it would have come under the old LCC anyway.
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This is out on the 'net as a twin port Levis 350, circa 1934 - they wouldn't have changed much ?
Looks like a fairly good match ? although the distinctive chrome pushrod tunnel is shrouded in darkness..
(http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/gallery/levis/1934-levis-350cc-twinport-1-920x570.jpg)
P.S. One area where they may have changed is the headlamp - the original pic does appear to be an earlier year of headlamp.
(switch in the back of it), so an earlier year bike ?
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I know quite a lot about the photos, but nothing that is really relevant to identifying the bike. Bear in mind that I know very little about bikes from the pre war era in my next comments.
There are four things that do strike me as being unusual about it though.
First, the handlebar levers. They appear to be of the later type that is common even today. My original guess as to the bikes age was based on these, so I would have dated it as being closer to WW2 than the registration date.
Second, the headlamp appears to be chrome. From other photos, it seems that this is unusual, most being black. As suggested, it could have been changed at some time.
Third, I cannot ever recall a rigid framed bike as not having a rear mudguard strut that comes roughly 45 degrees away from the hub. No doubt there are some, and if there are, I'm certain someone on here will know. Perhaps that will help to identify it.
Fourth. the exhausts seem a little short. When I have trying to identify the bike, similar systems are always longer.
Years ago, I was told that the bike was a 328cc OEC Twin Port. I've since discounted that one. Then, I was told that it was a 1938 Sunbeam Model 9. That does not seem to be correct either, especially if the registration is from 1934 or 5.
One thing that may be relevant. In June, 1951, the owner of the bike wanted to take the little lad in one of the photos (his nephew) to Chester Zoo. That would suggest to me that it was a 5 or 600cc engine. Mainly because to take a child of that age with him would suggest it had a sidecar. I couldnt really see anything smaller being used as an outfit.
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The second photo seems to show that the bike has a full cradle, twin-downtube frame. This rules out lots of common things, and suggests something a little unusual: maybe Stevens, AJW, perhaps OEC (known for their unusual frames!) or even something continental.
Add to the weird frame the weird cylinder head, with the casting extending out the front with the exhaust ports angled down. Mmm... nothing comes to mind immediately. Some searching required.
Leon
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Too easy? OEC looks very likely. The OEC here is the 1934 250, and has the cradle frame and funny head required. I suspect that you can see the OEC rear springing in the first photo?
Leon
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I do agree, the 250cc OEC does look very likely. I had actually discounted them previously due to the frame. Other than some competition models, I'd never noticed one with a duplex frame. As I wrote previously though, my knowledge of pre-war bikes is limited to say the least!
There are two reasons that I am trying to identify this bike correctly. First, in 1951 it was ridden from just outside St. Helens, Lancashire up to Forres in Morayshire, Scotland and back with my Dad as passenger. Second, a few weeks later, the bike was crashed, possibly due to a steering fault. As a result of injuries from the accident, the owner passed away in hospital about two weeks later.
Edit: Was there a larger version that looked identical that would have been capable of pulling a sidecar?
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Like you say, you don't know much about pre war bikes, which show inthat you are putting too much emphasis on vague items like the levers, and the chrome lamp.
people change their bikes from the minute they buy them.
pre war nothing was fixed in stone and a buyer could specify what he liked, after all, some bikes had inverted levers after the war even, viz sunbeam S7.
I a pretty certain, having owned a couple that is a Levis 350, quite capable of carrying two adults. However Levis made 500 and 600cc bikes.
This is a Levis 350, I can read the name on the tank, the long stroke of the 350 is evident in its skinny cylinder, it carries its dynamo in front a la Velocette which is right for mid 30s. I don't think its a twin tube frame shown there. Nor can I see the distinctive OEC rear suspension, plus your one has only one pushtod tube. Levis own engine not a bought in JAP.
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The duplex frame can just be seen on the photo that shows two adults on it.
I do agree, people do change their bikes from the second the get them. The ones I own prove that! As long as I have been riding, swapping levers, headlamps etc. has always been popular. I would doubt that someone would remove the rear mudguard stay though. Unless there was a reason behind it, such as fitting a passenger seat.
Please guys, dont for one minute think that I am trying to start some kind of argument. To get to the bottom of this has become quite important to me for some very personal reasons.
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you are right, twin frame tubes on the second bike, so therefore two bikes need ID-ing.??
I am still with Levis onthe first pic.
yes after a 2nd look its two bikes, second bike has small tool boxes ,not on the first, possibly a tank panel can be made out?
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I've got both a 350 and 500 Levis, and neither of these bikes in the photos is a Levis.
Levis used a single front frame tube as already mentioned, but it connects to engine plates at the TOP of the crankcase.
In the top photo the front frame tube can be seen continueing to a much lower level.
The exhaust ports do project on a Levis, but not like in the top photo, also the pipes leave the head fairly horizontally, before curving down, and the bend projects in front of the frame tube when viewed side on. None of these features in the top photo.
The petrol tank is the wrong shape, and the blurry maker's transfer is too far forwards.
Hope this helps ;)
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The engines used in the OECs in 1934 were branded OEC, but I assume they were made by Blackburne. Some catalogues suggest there was a 350, which may have had the same layout as the 250, but the 500 ohv did not have the same distinctive exhaust port and exhaust angle. Pity there aren't some better photos.
Cheers
Leon
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I did find one more photo yesterday. I'll scan it and post as soon as I can. Its not much clearer than the others, however. I'm currently looking for others that may be better. Stay tuned... :)
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OK, here's a twist. Motor Cycling tested this OEC Model 34/6 in their issue of 29 August 1934. It's a duplex steering model, so the frame is quite different, but the 198cc engine (presumably Blackburne) is like our mystery bike.
The twist is the rego number: AYV 347 compared with AYV 349 on the mystery bike.
There's a story in there somewhere.
Cheers
Leon
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No story at all, number issued from the same block of numbers as issued to large dealers selling new bikes.
That "178cc" OEC has a 350 AJS engine gearbox and chaincase.
OEC used last years engines from AMC in their bikes; sometimes AJS sometimes Matchless. Some OEC like the one in the cocked up article in Classic Motorcycle some years back clearly showed 70% of the bike, frame, engine, oil tank and other bits came from Plumstead.
OEC factory on the south coast was little more than a lock up garage.
I'm still not convinced that pic 1 is not a Levis, and its definately two different bikes shown.
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Here is the other photo I found. I hope this can help with the identification.
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Better detail there, but not much better, can't you play with contrast and brilliance to bring the detail out?
confirms the bikes in the first two pics are two different bikes, this one is not a Levis though.
engine has the look of an early 30s AJS or even a Stevens, pushrod tubes are reminisente of Sunbeam but its not that.
Stevens also had that duplex downtubes widely spaced, set back timing case with screws, check out Stevens motorcycles.
Exhaust angle isn't quite the same tho' and looks like push on pipes.
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Better detail there, but not much better, can't you play with contrast and brilliance to bring the detail out?
If someone could tell me how to do that with contrast, brilliance, I'd give it a try, assuming I have whatever is needed of course.
When I found this photo, there was another one with it. Not of what appears to be the two bikes, but of the other that went along on the trip to Scotland. The photos appear to have been taken at the same time. I can post that if asked, but it appears to me (unless I am sadly mistaken) to be a 500cc Norton. Either an ES2 or a Model 18. Whichever it is, it has the Roadholders. That corresponds with part of what I was once told about the trip. It doesnt seem to correspond with the bike pictured. If it did, then the photo of the bike with the little lad on it would be a Sunbeam. I think that its already established that it isnt one of those.
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you should have some kind of photo management on your computer, Paint or what ever
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This is the best that I can manage, and its not much of an improvement. From what I can see, there are two external lugs on the timing case. They dont seem to fit in with some engine photos I have found online, neither does the "angle" of the case leading up to the magneto (or is it a magdyno?). Parallel pushrod tubes can just be seen as well. Any help to anyone?
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Looks like a Matchless engine to me.
Cheers,
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To take it a step further, like everyone else in the early 30's Matchless were fitted with 'sloper' engines so the timing cases were at a slightly different angle than when fitted to a vertical engine. When selling their engines to smaller factories as they did in the later 30's they would fit the early 'sloper' timing case on the later vertical engines to give them a different look. The parts were entirely interchangeable. The earlier 'sloper' cases could also have a different (and 'b**y' awkward) type of exhaust valve lifter mounted down on the timing cases which accounts for one of the vague odd lumps you can see.
Matchless or AMC as they were by then sold their engines to both OEC and Ok Supreme at this time and possibly one or two others. Of course they had been making engines for Brough Superior and Morgan cars through the thirties also.
Cheers,
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Looking online, I found just one photo of an OEC with a Matchless engine. The 35/3 model. It does look like a good match for the photos.
I do have quite a bit of info regarding Matchless motorcycles, but nothing as detailed as 33d6 posted.
Any comments anyone?
Before I forget, thanks for your input everyone.
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Best to just consider it as an unknown old bike? :-\
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Yes the last pic is likely a girder fork OEC...........now on the subject of girder fork OECs,there used to be picture of one with a Suzuki engine in it.....and it clearly showed the detail of the upper frame tubes ,under the tank......Now the reason I ask ,is I have a 34 OEC duplex,and Ive a hankerin to remove the duplex front and add a girder fork frame........incidentally,OEC allowed for this ,the frame is joined at the midsection ,top and bottom,and the rear part usable on either ...........and I might add,OEC duplexes are common in Oz ,so im not desecrating a rarity.
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I live 5 minutes drive from the OEC factory, so maybe I could go and ask them about the bike?
Between the wars the factory used to make a big deal about employing disabled Naval veterans and they were rightly praised for their actions on this.
What they never said was that they paid those veterans the same wage as all the rest less the amount of their disability pensions, so all the workforce ended up being paid the same regardless.
Heaven forbid anyone should get a little extra for being disabled in the service of their country.
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the "two lugs" are screw holes, probably about 8 round the case, nothing else.
If thats the best you can come up with as a 'useful clue' I'm done with it.
Face it you'll probably never know.
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the "two lugs" are screw holes, probably about 8 round the case, nothing else.
If thats the best you can come up with as a 'useful clue' I'm done with it.
Face it you'll probably never know.
If you think about it, the two lugs may be something that can identify the engine. Some manufacturers used bolts/screws outside the "gasket line" as this one does. Matchless were one of them on some engines. Others have screws inside the gasket line. Others even have the screws in the middle of the case. Some JAP's for example.
From what has been said, theres a reasonable chance that this is a Matchless engined OEC from about 1934 or '35. Which exact model, I've no idea.
Maybe I will never find out what it is, but on the other hand, maybe I will. One thing is certain though. I dont want this to be the first thing that beats me in over 55 years of riding/repairing motorcycles.
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This is not a Matchless engine of that I'm sure, like this its more of an older AJS/Stevens set up.
They aren't lugs, they are recesses for the screw heads, like I said, they will be part of a set of 8.
If you been on bikes for 55 years, as long as I have that is, surprised you aren't familiar with older brit stuff.
Given you my input, that's it.
BTW, you have not commented on my assertion that first set of pics is two different bikes,come to that nor has anyone else.
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I'm not quite sure why this has turned into such a controversy!
All the photos show the same bike, which is a c1934 OEC, fitted with an engine that was branded OEC but was made elsewhere. 33d6 has explained that the engine came from Matchless, with a custom magneto drive case for the customer. When Matchless used the motor it was a "sloper".
As I pointed out above, the 250 and 500 cc variants of this engine are different in the way that the exhaust ports are arranged on the cylinder head. The smaller version has a larger gap between the cylinder and the port, as shown in the 1934 OEC catalogue. One of the original photos shows the silhouette view, indicating the smaller engine. There was a 350 version that was probably the same silhouette.
The latest photo shows the engine in detail, including the funny exhaust lift mechanisim that 33d6 refers to. It also shows the toolbox high on the back in the OEC position.
A very clear photo from Motor Cycling in 1934 shows a similar OEC (albeit with the optional Duplex steering, and labelled 198cc) with a rego number only 2 digits different from the "mystery" bike. Mini me explains that there is nothing interesting about this because dealers block registered batches of bikes. In this case, a batch of OECs no doubt.
The mystery is solved. The bike is a small capacity OEC, dating from 1934.
Cheers
Leon
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These photos might explain why I think the bike is likely a 250 (or maybe 350). Imaging sliding your flat hand vertically up the front of the cylinder. On the smaller engine there is a gap between the cylinder and the exhaust port that your hand could slide into; on the larger engine there isn't.
From the rather unclear side-on photo, I'd say the engine looks more like a 250 than a 500.
Leon
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And presumably this is the origins of the engine, here in the 1931 Matchless D/S 250cc.
The drive for the maglita is on the drive side, but other models used a magneto chain case with bossed screws, but showing "Matchless" rather than "OEC".
No doubt 33d6, who knows more about Matchless than the rest of us put together, could add more to his comments above if necessary.
Cheers
Leon
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If you look ,there is a little lever on the timing case ,this I think was a half compression device,and was not fitted on the 1935 year Matchless,they using a conventional valve lifter......33d6 will correct this......a distinctive feature.........and OEC went bust in 1934 ,and were bailed out by Glanfield Lawrence,which was the start of the Matchless connection.