classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: NewComet on October 04, 2007, 12:43:45 AM
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Hi folks,
I have just joined this forum.
My grandfather was the maker of New Comet motorcycles in Birmingham, UK, from about 1905 to the early 1930s. His name was A.H. Haden. Four generations, beginning with A.H. Haden's father as far back as 1869, were involved in the family business until 2002 when my brother had to close it due to so many changes in the market and world economy.
My brother and I are setting about the task of writing a short book about the history of the business and would be glad of any help from anyone.
We have a number of photographs but only a small handful of documents; very little family knowledge about the history of the business was handed down and we have had to fall back on trade directories and whatever we have been able to glean from the internet (which we find is of varying accuracy).
We do know that apart from the New Comet period and the sidecars which were developed at the same time, the major product was components, mostly for cycles and motorcycles but other vehicles too.
We were involved with Regal motorcycles and Precision. We had wins in South Africa early in the century and in the TT Races in 1920 and 1921, and gained a world record at Brooklands in 1921.
We are looking for any sort of help, such as knowledge of the cycle/motorcycle industry in Birmingham, or in finding models of Haden-made motorcycles which still exist.
It would be great to hear from anyone. I will attach one or two photos later.
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I suggest you contact the VMCC http://www.vmcc.net/ if you have not already done so?
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Thanks, L.A.B!
We are not members, but I see from the website you supplied that they have a library open to non-members and it has a couple of items directly relevant to New Comet. It's a good start!
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I've just sent a message direct to the original poster about this topic. I wonder if I'll get a reply?
Nick
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I don't know! Easier to research now than in 2007. I've done a lot of work on one of our local firms - Lewis in Adelaide, South Australia. Lewis might have been about the same size as New Comet, and there is effectively an infinite amount of information! http://earlymotor.com/lewis
Just a very quick look at Australian papers of the day shows that we had New Comets out here.
Cheers
Leon
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There is at least one surviving New Comet listed in the VMCC Register. If the owner is still a member it is possible the VMCC may pass on a request from you to the owner.
Cheers,
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Thanks for the info: looking around 1913/14 era, especially for any images.
The surviving New Comet is in the National Motorcycle Museum, and the frame is a bit different to the one I'm trying to ID.
Nick
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the one I'm trying to ID.
Why not throw a pic of it up here.
This forum has quite the success rate on id-ing old bikes from pics etc
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Nick,
As I commented above, there's a lot of work to understand even a small company like New Comet. For example, Grace's Guide has an interesting page http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/A._H._Haden with a photo of a "Comet Precision" motorcycle (the name used by New Comet in 1912 only, it seems).
When I see a weird petrol tank like this - almost pistol grip - I usually think of a local bike (in Victoria, Australia) that was branded "Leitch" (local builders in Hamilton), but which was identical to a Grandex Precision. Now the Grandex page at Grace's Guide http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Grandex mentions some stuff that echos what was going on at New Comet. Prepare yourself for a link between New Comet and Grandex! Perhaps a supplier in common?
I assume there are New Comet images in The Motor Cycle of the day?
Cheers
Leon
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http://dogdragons.com/dogdragons/does/nec14/nec-classic14/1914newcomet/1914new-comet.html
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Thanks for chipping in everyone.
The drop tank in the photo is interesting - Jack Woodhouse was part of Regal, with Ernest Smith. New Comet dip in and out of the Blue 'Un, as do many of the smaller makers who fitted the Precision motor.
Leon - I've been trying to 'understand' Elliston & Fell/P.V. for years, but with very little information to go on.
Conversely, these Sun-lug/Precision-engine bikes have quite a lot of info about them: both Brown Brothers and New Comet published a frame drawing which is made up of generic parts (accompanied by a list of lugs, tubes etc), and there's a New Comet page with the footrests, brake parts etc.
I think it's all Sun parts, and various permutations turn up surprisingly often when you look out for them.
Overlaying the front part of the frame over my snap it matches - but that essentially just means it fits a 500cc Precision motor.
The rear drop-outs fit an Armstrong hub rather than a Sturmey, which narrows it down a bit: Regal offered that combination.
The eccentric lug for the starter is a peculiarity.
Grateful for any thoughts.
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Hi Nick,
We have lots of frames that look like this in Australia: mostly/all Sun lugs and pretty conventional geometry. The photos below show two local frames with Sun lugs. The upper bike was rebuilt from a very original machine and is a c1920 Carbine-MAG twin. The lower bike is a Lewis, c1917, built from Sun lugs when Chater Lea stuff ran out during the war. The origin and date are confirmed by the frame number and period reports in the newspapers. Note that the c1917 uses D section tubes for the lower rear frame (as did most earlier Sun frames) where-as the later Sun set uses round tube.
The cross-over on the rear engine plates and the lug on the right rear stay for the brake shoe points to hub-clutch or hub-gear. What makes you think Armstrong?
Mark2: Re the restored "New Comet". Maybe it is New Comet (c1912), but without knowing its provenance I'm always healthily skeptical. I know of too may bikes restored from bits that have names affixed by whim rather than research. The bike uses the earlier style lug from the engine plates to the rear fork which is Sun or a copy of Sun.
The frame number, its location on the frame, size and font might give a clue?
Cheers
Leon
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Thanks Leon - the more I look about here the more I spot too.
The back end of mine is all D-tube, as per the 1913 Brown Brothers page (which shows a frame with a pedal bottom bracket), and also has the front chainstay lug shown in the bottom image you posted - which, again, appears in the image of 1912 Sun lugs on page 107 of Rob Saward's green book, and is appropriated by a New Comet leaflet with 'Haden's Motor Sets' added to the bottom of image (it's described as being for machines without pedals).
Another page shows the cross-over linkage - there are variations of this though - Suns and a Precision had the crossover about halfway down the rear engine plate, and a 'below centre' brake shoe. There's a Regal outfit with the high-level crossover and 'above centre' brake shoe, and one of the Regal Green images from the time has the same high-level cross-over.
An image of a ladies' model Regal from showtime 1913 indicates that it has the same rear stays as mine - the 'eye' for the starting handle, and no provision to attach the carrier to the seat-stays (most had a 1/4" stud that went through the cross-piece where the mudguard bracket fits - my frame has a thin cast 'web' and no attachment points).
Why Armstrong? They all had a flatted spindle, 7/16" across flats: the larger Sturmeys (JA and JS) all had a round spindle, which I think was 9/16" diameter, and just wouldn't go in the drop-outs I have.
Plus, I've dropped a restored one in, and it goes straight in, with enough room for a torque arm on the drive side (as shown on the 1913-for-1914 Hampton which appeared in the press of the time).
Looking at the lists of machines for 1913 and '14, the Sturmey hub was the most common offering with the Precision engine (only a small percentage of machines offered in the UK had the Precision engine).
But, from small ads, it appears that 1913 Regals were offered with the Armstrong gear.
Haven't found a number yet: even if I did, I'm not sure there would be any records to check it against.
Nick
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was the water cooled precision engine regal green fitted the Villiers free engine hub ? also has flats on the spindle
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I've not found any mentions or images that indicate that was the case, but thanks for the suggestion.
Regal-Precision and Regal-Green bikes were listed as distinct entities in the lists, but presumably they all came out of the same works, be it Ernest Smith & (Jack) Woodhouse, or AH Haden's.
As far as I can tell, for the 1915 season both Regal and New Comet/Haden had 'proper gearboxes' and all-chain drive, the penny having dropped about hub gears in the press across the second half of 1914.
I think Armstrong got hoovered up by Sturmey towards the end of 1914. Sturmey announced that their 1915 range would include hub and countershaft gears (the CS box getting properly unveiled right at the end of 1914), but it's possibly difficult to imagine too many clamouring for the hub option for too long.
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there where a few gearboxes about by @1913 all chain and ariel where one and would have been close to them being in selly oak , did they make there own gearbox ? or buy in maybe Bowden
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There were - a few 'early adopters' had them by then, but the info I have from the time indicates that the first Regal and New Comet gearbox models used the Jardine gearbox, made in Nottingham, which was an early 'accessory' countershaft box.
Anyway, the rear stays on mine are set up for a hub gear (dropouts are described as being for 'change-speed hubs', and the 'eye' casting with the eccentric accommodates a pedal crank and small chainwheel which connects with the freewheel on the end of a hub.
I shall have to keep looking out for any New Comet images, to try and spot a match.
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I have funny Jardine stories... I have a 1915 Australian bike with a 4-speed Jardine which has been a bundle of laughs.
Jardine were unusual in that they supplied a lug to suit the particular bike to which the box was to be fitted.
Australian bikes often used the starter handle for the hub gear mounted on the off-side chain stay. I'll take a photo in the morning.
Leon
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Jardine seemed to be leaders in the field of countershaft boxes, and then to fade from the market.
Too expensive? Too complex?
Lots of folks used a 'starter' involving a short run of chain - but as with just about anything at the time which was a 'fad', there's a myriad of different ways of doing it - lugs under the chainstay, lugs above the chainstay, a few with the starter on the saddle stay, bolt-on apparatus rather than braze-on lugs (presumably to 'update' an existing design with the minimum of effort).
There was even an article in the Blue 'Un about them, with the usual line drawings - it seemed to be the next step on from the conventional bottom-bracket pedals, and another step away from the cycle heritage. By 1915, stuff without a proper gearbox was starting to look a bit 'old hat' though.
The only machines I've seen the 'eye' casting on are a very nice 1914 Precision v-twin, and a Sun-Precision, which places it forward of the brake lug, for a longer chain run. edit: and the Regal ladies model outfit for 1914...
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you might find this interesting , but I am bias being from the area http://www.historywebsite.co.uk/Museum/Transport/Motorcycles/mc.htm#RtoZ