classic motorcycle forum
The VintageBike Message Board => The Classic Biker Bar => Topic started by: Kit352 on October 29, 2019, 04:30:44 PM
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So, I am finally in a position to purchase my first truly old motorcycle. I have experience in bikes from the early 70's onwards but I want to try something different this time.
What I want to buy is a single seater pre-war bike. Something along the lines of a new imperial or matchless looking bikes. So with that in mind I have no idea what models or manufacturers I should be looking at. I think it's best I list my wants and needs and take it from there. I welcome all advise and discussions.
Budget- £6000 tops. I see bikes ranging from £2k and up with a majority of them around £5000 so I think my budget is good.
Must be a single seat.
I would prefer a prewar but new ones are possible too. Looks like the style I like dies out around mid 50's.
I would like one with a twist throttle and lighting. I've never ridden a lever throttle bike but I dont think I would get on well with it. Lighting is a nice add on but realistically I could build a rechargeable lighting system if the bike didnt have any. I doubt the bike would be ridden at night but you never know.
Hand shift
I'm a bigger guy at 6ft and around 110kg. I'm not sure how the power works on these old motors but I am thinking I need a bigger motor. Question is how big? Frame size may also be an issue.
Reliability and parts availability need to be pretty good. I know thats a relative statement but I dont want to buy a bike that I have no chance of repairing if something simple goes.
Where is the best place to look to buy one? I've been watching Ebay and a few other sites lately. I've seen a few nice bikes I wouldn't mind checking out but i feel i lack the knowledge to make a good decision at this point. I am planning on taking the long drive to a few dealers in the coming weeks to see some first hand.
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Your last sentence makes the most sense. Got to Verralls or Andy Tiernan and have a good look around to decide what you might like and you might be able to strike a deal. I don't see that anyone else could advise you what to buy as it's a personal thing.
That said, £6k really doesn't buy a lot in the type of bike you're looking for, so I hope you're good with advanced mechanics?
Pre-war girder/rigids were the poor relations for years but now they're sought-after, and even the mundane doesn't come cheap. :'(
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Rex’s advice is spot on. In addition go along to one of the VMCC Training Days where they provide a range of machines for you to try. You will then get a good idea of the reality and have more idea of what to look for.
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Thanks for the tips. I had looked at verralls before but they have nothing that I can even come close to affording. Andy Tiernan on the other hand has lots I could happily buy right now but i haven't been to the shop yet. I particularly like the Favor he has, the small Cotton and an AJS at the top of my budget. There are also numerous BSA bikes available as well but for now I trying to avoid the easy brands.
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Here's another tip for you then, don't touch the Favor with someone else's barge-pole, let alone your own. Small French motorbikes have been discussed many times on here and the general consensus is to avoid.
Both seem reasonable although personally the Cotton is a little small engine-wise, but that's only my opinion. The Ajay seems OK but like any unfinished resto you really need to see it in the flesh. The restorer may have passed before he completed it but that doesn't mean that it hadn't stalled before that due to some difficulty or other. :-\
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I agree on the ajs but it may not need that much to bring it back. It's something I can discuss with them I am sure.
Thats too bad about the favor but its good info. I almost certainly would have bought it if I saw it in person and not known what I got myself into.
Your comment on engine size brings up a question. In modernish bike a 125cc 2 stroke is far better than a 125cc 4 stroke. I would equal the 125 2 stroke power closer to a 250 4 stroke. Does that not hold true on the truly old bikes as well? I know none of them will be speed racers but my gut says a 2 stroke might make them more ridable in a lot of respects unless I get a large engine bike which looks to be out of my price range.
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2 strokes didn't have ANY performance until MZ in the 50s cottoned on to pulse tuning
so they were mostly basic transport prior to that (with the exception of 500cc Scotts, but they are expensive).
So forget that notion....
We were chuckling that BSA Bantams were quoting 150 mpg at some quite low average speed, which meant
that the 2 gal tank would go 300 miles - and take 10 hours to do !!!
Its perhaps worth mentioning that sidevalve WW2 bikes like the BSA M20 and Norton 16H had about 11 or 12 hp
on tap, which means they have a flat-out speed of about 62 mph give or take a few mph, and a happy cruising speed
of rather less than that. So don't expect earlier smaller bikes to be speed demons by any means, back roads and relaxed
riding are what these earlier older bikes are all about.
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To add further confusion you need to remember people were smaller a few generations back. We mainly have figures from Army medicals to refer to and they show the average British soldier in WWII was 5'7"- 5'8" tall and weighed 75kg. And they were the fit and healthy of their day. You are physically too big for something like the Andy Tiernan Cotton. You would quickly find it uncomfortable to ride for more than 10 minutes or so.
If you are two-stroke minded (and R puts up fair points about early two-strokes) then the Francis Barnett Cruiser Andy has ticks all your boxes. Within budget, single saddle, hand change, a 250 Villiers so will cruise at 45 or so on side and back roads plus has a few advantages that you aren't aware of. It appears to have a four speed box (the Cruiser was available with both 3 and 4 speeders). A 4 speed box is a monumental improvement over a 3 speed. Francis Barnett dropped the Villiers direct lighting and fitted a regular 6 volt dynamo for lighting. I can see the dynamo. It was Francis Barnett top of the range model so has all the bells and whistles of its day.
And finally, it is missing the factory fitted leg shields which for you is a big plus. Firstly it gives you a bargaining point with Andy and secondly they would drive you nuts if they were fitted. A close mate of your height and weight had a very brief romance with a Cruiser for that very reason. He constantly battered his knees on the things and couldn't sit comfortably. They are a major feature of the Cruiser but also a major nuisance to big blokes. It's worth a thought.
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I saw that FB cruiser as well and I know it ticks every box for me but I think it's very ugly. It's the lower bullet shaped area that kills me. Everything else about the bike seems perfect to me. If it was cheaper it would probably swing my vote but I think I can get something more my liking for similar money or a bit more.
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Remember that dealers need to make a profit, run a workshop / showroom, possibly deal with returns etc so your £6K is only goping to buy £4K from them.
I sold this 1931 Sunbeam Model 10 (ticking most of your boxes) a couple of years ago for £6,300. Fully rebuilt, evrything working, cosmetics nice but not concours. So they are out there.....
http://www.iansoady.org.uk/Sunbeam/Description.html
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Just let us know the result when you've bought something. If you ever do.
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I imagine I will have something to go under the tree Christmas. I just need more knowledge to buy the right one, whatever that may be.
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FFS Do what the rest of us did, buy anything and learn from your mistakes,on the job as it were.
But what ever you do, don't buy french tat.
PS, I always liked those FB cruisers, would I buy that one?... or from there?? :( it's debatable, the crimp on wiring is asking for trouble, look at where the fuel pipe runs so close to the chain.
bound to find more.
Anyway I never did like @, bloody numberplate dealer.
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FFS Do what the rest of us did, buy anything and learn from your mistakes,on the job as it were.
But what ever you do, don't buy french tat.
PS, I always liked those FB cruisers, would I buy that one?... or from there?? :( it's debatable, the crimp on wiring is asking for trouble, look at where the fuel pipe runs so close to the chain.
bound to find more.
Anyway I never did like @, bloody numberplate dealer.
I have made many, many motorcycle buying mistakes in my past and while I know I am sure to make more I would like to have as much info as possible for buying one of these. They are just out of my realm of general knowledge. I'm not worried so much about the running of them, it's the parts availability to keep them running. I dont want to end up with a beautiful bike that i cant ride because a brake pad wore out and i cant find a replacement. I have an old gsxr400 right now that suffers from something similar. I've been trying to find one rubber piece for nearly 2 years now.
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No disc brake pads on old bikes, the joy is, every thing is fixable, just don't expect it off the shelf at Halfords.
As for your old jap bike you can't get bits for that's the idea, planned obsolescence.
anyway no more from me as getting well fed up with these oozlum bird posts.
yours
Meldrew
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Hi,
I would prefer a prewar but new ones are possible too. Looks like the style I like dies out around mid 50's.
I would recommend buying a bike from a major producer, BSA, Triumph and the like where there are better spares available, although some parts of "common" popular bikes are scarce
WD bikes seem overpriced to me and prewar bikes command a premium
Buy a bike and see how you get on with it, you can always sell it on and buy another
Its easier to find bikes once you are out and about riding one.
I like BSA's for several reasons,(some sentimental as my first real bike was a BSA)
parts remained common (enough) to transplant across lots of years
A BSA B31 from 46 to 50 would fit your requirements and your budget ?
The 46/47 ones have a different gearbox to the later and bits for the early boxes are scarce
The one Andy has for sale has something "funny" going on with the rear guard on it, which maybe a bargaining point
John
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I've looked into a few old triumphs and it looks like parts are a huge issue with them. I do like them though.
I know bsa is probably my best bet and they are certainly in my price range but I'm not crazy about them. I do like the bantams though which is the bike that got me into looking for a much older bike. Too bad it doesnt have a hand shift. Plus prices have really gone up recently it looks like.
Is it wrong I really like this bike? Other than being French and brown and most likely to small for me it ticks all my boxes.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1950-ALCYON-TYPE-23-125cc-TAX-MOT-EXEMPT-GIRDERS-HAND-GEAR-CHANGE/362757625343?hash=item54760a15ff:g:3X8AAOSwWH1b61hR
It seems I like French bikes too. A good amount of the bikes I like turn out to be French after I look into them. There is also an old Peugeot listed that I also really like but it has no v5 and I feel is well overpriced even if it did have one.
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yes that'll do you, grab it quick its a bargain, ticks all your boxes.
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Beware, mini-me, your tongue might poke all the way through your cheek! :)
I'm not sure everything is OK with this bike: the fork spindles look like Whitworth bolts and the bronze under the gearbox is, well, a lot of bronze. The other thing is that this bike will be physically small. But as mini-me says, if you want it go for it. Budget for lots of time and money if you want it to ride.
In the hierarchy of things, wouldn't a British bike with a 197 Villiers be a better bet? Or a British 350, like the B31 suggested earlier, AJS, Ariel, 3T Triumph etc?
Personally I don't change my bikes very often, so for me time spent deciding exactly what will suit is time well spent.
Cheers
Leon
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Some interesting browsing:
https://online.handh.co.uk/m/view-auctions/catalog/id/113/?page=1
https://www.brightwells.com/classic-motoring/leominster-classic-vintage/leominster-classic-vintage-motorcycles-28th-november-2019/catalogue-classic-motorcycles-28th-november/
Ariel? Douglas? Excelsior Talisman? Plenty of good buying...
Leon
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The AJS equivalent of Ian's 1931 Sunbeam: https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1148783
I'm getting hooked...
Leon
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Hi Kit352
The Triumph factory was blitzed during WW2, they relocated to Meriden and a new factory, so the availability of pre war spares dried up
Any low powered 2 stroke and 4 stroke will be a danger to you in modern traffic :o
I would regard a 30's/40's or 50's 350 ohv 4 stroke as offering the minimum performance required to maintain a safe speed in today's traffic
In the Auction linked to the 350 Rudge will perform well although a physically small bike for a large rider
You might find an Ariel 350 from the 40's more attractive than a BSA ?? regarding budget again?
500's command heftier prices regardless of make
John
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A tidy 500?
https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1165473
Leon
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I'm a sucker for that 350cc OK Supreme in the H&H auction myself. Proper vintage that one, not pretend vintage. Rideable as is but not quite right so hours of fun fiddling and faffing. Would keep me amused for years and years but then again, I'm not hoping for a land speed record or whipping off a quick Continental tour over a long weekend. I just want to chuff down back roads looking for a good country pub. Pub collecting is serious business.
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I'm not sure everything is OK with this bike: the fork spindles look like Whitworth bolts and the bronze under the gearbox is, well, a lot of bronze.
Allied to the new repro headlamp, the toshed-over tank and front mudguard and the nice little Ebay Chinese tyre pump means that Pierre has put parts together for resale, and it rings those alarm bells.
We could all suggest and post links until Brexit finally happens and still be no nearer what it is you want in a bike. Have you no clarity yet with regards to what you want?
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He doesn't want a bike at, all it's a wind up, E's aving a larf innit.
I suspect he is one of our previous discontent french bike fans on here.
Or, those on here who frequented Real Classic site may recall that legendary timewaster and fantasiser NBAY? [no bike as yet]
Whatever answer he got, he'd refute it and then ask another silly question, and another, and another, in the end someone offerd him a free bike, he still came up with a reason not to have it.
People wasted a lot of time trying to encourage and help him.
One of his excuses was that he was a tall heavy guy, same as this bloke.
for myself I am about to block him so I don't have to read his nonsense. So he can spout off at me all he likes. 8)
It's one of the weird things about old bikes, when I was in the trade I got them all the time, 100% fantasy, sort of mechanical wet dreamers. Ignore him.
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Frames has been welded in at least two places, from the scorch on the front down tube and mudguard it would seem welded in situ.
Likewise the bottom of the fork has seen heat.
whats wrong with those girders? that they are not painted? I reckon it was tele forks replaced by girders for the hand 'shift' hard tail retro afficionados that plague the old bike movement these days.
Even odds what will break first,the forks or the frame, crap steel in france in those days, all that melted down whermacht stuff.
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He doesn't want a bike at, all it's a wind up, E's aving a larf innit.
I suspect he is one of our previous discontent french bike fans on here.
Or, those on here who frequented Real Classic site may recall that legendary timewaster and fantasiser NBAY? [no bike as yet]
Whatever answer he got, he'd refute it and then ask another silly question, and another, and another, in the end someone offerd him a free bike, he still came up with a reason not to have it.
People wasted a lot of time trying to encourage and help him.
One of his excuses was that he was a tall heavy guy, same as this bloke.
for myself I am about to block him so I don't have to read his nonsense. So he can spout off at me all he likes. 8)
It's one of the weird things about old bikes, when I was in the trade I got them all the time, 100% fantasy, sort of mechanical wet dreamers. Ignore him.
I have no idea what your talking about and I think it would be best if you did block me. I have done nothing but ask questions and give responses . It seems you already have it out for me simply by asking for advise. I'm not taking advise from you anyway as you seem to be a little off, maybe a lot off.
In response to others I have seen some non-ebay auction bikes but since I have no idea of the buying process or how the whole thing works I have ruled them out. I figured buying from a dealer or known person would be far safer.
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Beware, mini-me, your tongue might poke all the way through your cheek! :)
I'm not sure everything is OK with this bike: the fork spindles look like Whitworth bolts and the bronze under the gearbox is, well, a lot of bronze. The other thing is that this bike will be physically small. But as mini-me says, if you want it go for it. Budget for lots of time and money if you want it to ride.
In the hierarchy of things, wouldn't a British bike with a 197 Villiers be a better bet? Or a British 350, like the B31 suggested earlier, AJS, Ariel, 3T Triumph etc?
Personally I don't change my bikes very often, so for me time spent deciding exactly what will suit is time well spent.
Cheers
Leon
Thanks for pointing out the flaws to that bike. I knew it probably wasnt going to a good choice for me anyway but I do like mostly what it offers. That shape and style with most of its features is what I am after. An old simpleness to it.
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The AJS equivalent of Ian's 1931 Sunbeam: https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1148783
I'm getting hooked...
Leon
I like this one too but lack of lighting is a little bit of a worry. I need to research more on being able to put at least some lighting on it to make it a touch safer to ride around.
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A tidy 500?
https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1165473
Leon
If only it had a hand shifter. I really like the ajs and matchless brands but they seemed to modernize much quicker than others and ditched the hand shifter quite early. They seem to sell really quickly with the hand shifter, at least the ones I've seen.
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I think you should do a bit more research Kit so as to understand why and when various bikes got verious goodies.
Lighting was optional right up until the mid 30's or so and full electric lighting was the most expensive system although the very very cheapest also had it. (Villiers two-strokes.) Early lighting of any form is not very good but can be made so.
Todays style positive stop foot change appeared in the late 20's and was optional until the mid 30's or so. Even then hand change remained on the cheaper or non sporting models in a range. Some buyers preferred hand change.
Some makes stayed with hand change well after the rest of the world had moved on. There is no logic to it all.
Speedos, horns, rear vision mirrors, pillion seats and pillion footrests were also considered accessories for many years hence two bikes of the same make could be wildly different but both be correct. Slowly these things became a legal requirement but the bike factories still classed them as accessories and charged buyers as such.
Some factories went their own way with oddball thread sizes or unusual mechanical arrangements. Douglas and Velocette spring to mind here. All are fun. All have their own peculiar charms. None are dull.
It all depends on what mechanical abilities you bring to the table or have the aptitude to learn. Do not rely on what you have learnt about bikes back to the 70's. That is a handicap, not a plus.
Doing a bit of research first will be beneficial.
Cheers
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Just popped up at Andy's. I like everything about these 2 bikes other than the small engine sizes. I'm also assuming the frames are very small.
http://www.andybuysbikes.com/bikeshtml/07352ctn.html# I really like this one. Cant find much info on it though.
http://www.andybuysbikes.com/bikeshtml/07351mtg.html seems very similar to the above one.
Where is a better place to do research for old bikes like these. I've only really had good luck at the lars Anderson museum library but that's mostly looking at technical information and maybe some history. It doesnt really help much with actually determining if it's a good purchase.
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That Montgomery has clearly been recently restamped, and as it's not DVLA registered that will be a red flag to the DVLA inspector when he examines it. The Carlton had had a recent makeover too (Red rims? Really?) and the front mudguard is a poor fit.
Personally I would rather see honest rusty bits and missing mudguards etc than pay a premium for something that's been assembled for resale.
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It so happens I’m working on a 1939 Montgomery Terrier at the moment and I can definitely say the frame has been re-stamped. The proper numbers are lightly stamped vertically high up on the right hand side of the front down tube. You have to do a fair amount of cleaning to find it.
They are not a replica of the engine number which is correct.
The engine number of the Carlton shows it to be a post war production between 1946-48. I haven’t yet looked up what it was originally fitted to. It is far more of a lash up than the Montgomery which really is as cheap and nasty as it looks.
Both are powered by the 9D Villiers and there are various sneakiest about them that you need to know about them to get the best out of them. You are too big and heavy to get any sort of performance.
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You also need to ask yourself why you actually want a hand gear change? They can be a bit intimidating especially when you need to change down for a roundabout etc and find you need 3 hands working in synchronisation. Of course if it's merely because you like the look of them I'll shut up.
I liked the Sunbeam I referred to above but to be fair, although its performance was quite sparkling the brakes were poor and the hand change made every trip more challenging than it needed to be. Living in suburban Brum meant I had several miles of busy roads, junctions, traffic lights etc before I could give it its head which was somewhat tiresome. A later bike with foot change and working brakes like my Norton ES2 is a much more useable proposition.
Oh and I just wouldn't bother looking at 2 strokes. You could get a perfectly serviceable just post-war AMC 350/500 for £4,000 or so. That would give you decent performance with relative ease of riding.
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He's in the USA, where the museum library he refers to is.
you are all being taken for a ride chaps.
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My reasoning for the hand shift is pure nostalgia. I've always wanted one on my Harley but couldnt do it. If I am going to go old school I'm going to do it right. Hand shift in my opinion is one of the things that makes these old bikes great. It's really the only thing I wont budge on. I would prefer a tank mount unit vs the side saddle one but I think either one is fine.
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He's in the USA, where the museum library he refers to is.
you are all being taken for a ride chaps.
This is getting old with you. First I'm French because I like French bikes now I live in America because I have visited an American museum several times. You really need to ask questions before blindly accusing with absurd and quite frankly nonsensical guesses. I dont know what's wrong with you but you really need to stop. Everything with you is all accusations or false information. I thought you were blocking me? Please do so. People are allowed to travel and like foreign things. Your life must be so sad to act like this and for that I pity you.
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So you're not French or a Yank. That narrows it down a bit. I know one thing for sure, you're a keyboard warrior or serial poster; whatever the term is.
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Can't see it, What did he say then?
Would I accuse him of being French? Did I? Nah,French have more sense that to buy such tat thats why they send it here for mugs.
Hand shifter? no brit uses that term, and mostly know how to spell advice, well on this side of the pond anyway.
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He could of course mean "please advise me". But I agree this thread has run its course.
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It should never have got this far. I have known lots of this kind, both on the net and in my days in the trade, they used go round bike shops wasting time asking questions for the sake of it.
But what really gets me about them is that people give them so much of their time and knowledge in a genuine effort to encourage them but not really realising what these idiots are up to. Notice how when this guy gets a response to a question, he'll evade the content of the answer and go off on another tack.
Read it all, he's a big hefty bloke,allegedly, yet he keeps on coming up with piddling little two strokes to consider, answer all that he come back with another prospect. Not once has he selected the sort of bike he specified in the OP.
He's using Tiernans stock list, isn't there enough choice there? why not ask Tiernan the seller these questions? Because he don't really want a bike.
He pisses off people who will stop bothering to try to help genuine newcomers.That's my real grief here.
Like 99%of the blokes who take the time to answer him I'm happy to give advice, experience free of charge, pissed off getting my goodwill abused.
Next poster who comes on here with some shagged out foriegn 2 stoke, and we've had a few, I promise I'll ignore him.
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Your point about changing tack has hit the nail on the head mini-me. You see it on so many trouble shooting posts and it's a dead giveaway IMO.
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Can we discuss brexit instead? ;) :o :o :o :o
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Just popped up at Andy's. I like everything about these 2 bikes other than the small engine sizes. I'm also assuming the frames are very small.
http://www.andybuysbikes.com/bikeshtml/07352ctn.html# I really like this one. Cant find much info on it though.
I had a thumb through the show issues of The Motor Cycle looking at Carlton. In late 1936 the 1937 model was described, and more-or-less that same description and illustrations appeared in late 1937 and late 1938. No obvious changes. A "major" feature of the bikes were the legshields, missing for the bike on sale now. Finish was black and chrome.
I could find no mention of the "doubled up" rear frame on Andy's model. And what are the springs? A sprung parcel rack? I wonder if this model Carlton had some special application in mind - perhaps something war related?
Cheers
Leon
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Strengthened rear frame, and sprung rack. For carrying ...a radio set? ...a delicate pillion passenger? ...
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So someone asks for advice then does the opposite. I think that’s standard human nature. They don’t want advice. They want approval. We’re all grumpy old men and can’t be bothered to play the game. Mini me just has the shortest fuse.
By the way. The Carlton engine was originally fitted to a DOT three wheel delivery thing. It’s okay, only Villiers nutters like me would notice that but I do like to know these things.
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I should clarify. They want approval of what they have already decided to do, not advice on what they should do.
Cheers,
PS I agree Léon. What on earth was going on with that Carlton? Why the weird and wonderful pack rack and strengthened frame. The mind boggles. If it was something interesting I’m sure Andy T would have mentioned it in his sales blurb.
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Agreed Mini-me has got a short fuse, after years of having my goodwill abused I can spot one of these fools very quickly. There are a number of giveaways in the subjects chosenand how they ask and respond. Piddling french two stokes area common denominator.
Wasted far too much time over the years,the net has made it worse. >:(
There is sadly an element around old bikes that attracts them.I expect most of us as youths spent saturdays wandering around bikeshops drooling over stuff we couldn't afford, hoping someone had put the wrong price tag on that desirable bike,but this amount of daft questions would have had us of the premises very quickly.
I love my older bikes,had years of fun with them, learnt a lot,met some good blokes,wasted a lot of money inthe process, one day I will have to pass them on, but to who? not some idiot dreaming about a hardtail blobber hand shifter that thinks girder forks are a fashion accessory. I'd rather be buried with them.
I like to pass my experiences on to a budding motorcylist that will continue the hobby, Not some sad poser. [they make Harley-d for those ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D]
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Just to end all this I've settled on a nice prewar Douglas aero with the hand shift and girder front end from a seller in Scotland. Has everything I've been looking for and a steady supply of spares. I had to up my budget a bit but I had him throw in a french 125cc Peugeot as well which I quite like. I've been running around on that and find it to be a wonderful bike. I dont understand the hate for them but I suspect it's just british bias. The douglas runs well enough but isnt as fun as the Peugeot. It's like a slow rumbling tank. Not at all nimble like the peugot. I think the douglas may need a bit of tuning which will keep me off it for a while until I figure it out. Seems to run well enough so it's probably just me being paranoid but I will look into it anyway just for piece of mind. I am having a friend scan manuals and notes from lars Anderson for it and send them to me so i can double check settings and components. There library is massive for these old bikes. Lots of private notes and comments on some as well in regards to tuning and racing.
The little peugot has gotten a lot of comments when I bring it up to newlands corner. I cant wait to bring the douglas there.