classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: dynamic on May 18, 2020, 09:06:47 AM
-
I hope someone can guide me finally got round to replacing the handlebar dip/main/horn switch
the new one has 4 X wire yellow/green/black/white, black works the horn
I have tried all combinations for the other 3 wires and have got the pilot/dip/main working from the switch
on pilot headlamp switch to middle all is good when I switch to main/dip the ammeter reads -4 this happens with engine running or not
I have a good charge to battery 14v + new Lucas single phase 120 w reg Lucas 47205 stator & new rotor
rear/stop lamp work fine,
4 wires to connect up what could go wrong ? where have I failed ? help !
-
The only way is to use a multimeter / continuity tester and go through each combination of wires with each combination of switch positions.
The colours will bear no relationship to what was there originally.
-
Hi Iansoady thanks for the reply
I realize the colours will bear no relationship to the original set up just very puzzled why I get a -4 drain on dip and main when pilot responds normally
I will continue with all combinations using my multimeter and post my findings.
-
If you've got pilot dip main and the horn all working off the switch then the switch wiring must be correct. As I understand your post you then have a 4A discharge when dip and main are on? Does the discharge reduce when you rev the engine? Does the voltage across the battery alter with engine revs?
If anything it sounds like a charging fault than wiring errors in the switch wires.
-
Hi rex thanks for your reply when revved with main/dip selected the ammeter stays at -4 amps
with 14 v + reading from the battery
on pilot lamp the ammeter reads 0 volts so I am assuming charging/ammeter are correct ?
-
Sounds like the ammeter is OK but if the ammeter doesn't move to the right (even momentarily) when the engine is blipped then clearly the charging needs attention.
-
I am using a brand new battery (12v 5ah 80A)
it is fully charged so I assume it will not take any more amps
as before the needle reads 0 until I switch to main/dip then reads -4ah , had another look this afternoon and "am still in the dark" ?
-
As Rex said, the ammeter should respond to revving of the engine; battery charged or not. From what you say there is not a problem with your new switch.
-
Hi,
the ammeter should respond to revving of the engine
Only if the rest of the wiring is correct
When the engine is running connect the volt meter across the battery and see if the voltage rises with engine revs
If it does and the ammeter is still reading minus then there is a wiring error, it could be as simple as the charging wire from the rectifier is connected to the wrong side of the ammeter
John
-
Hi John yes when revving the engine I get 14+ volts across the terminals with 12 + on tickover
I have a new Lucas loom installed the only wires going to the ammeter are from the loom brown/white & brown/blue
my rectifier is a new Lucas single phase 120 watt unit with a Lucas 47205 stator
so I will have another go today and post "any progress"
-
my rectifier is a new Lucas single phase 120 watt unit with a Lucas 47205 stator
How is the "rectifier" (presumably you mean regulator/rectifier) connected?
For the ammeter to show 'charge' the reg/rec negative wire (assuming positive earth?) must be connected to the ignition switch side of the ammeter which is the side with the brown/white wire.
-
Hi LAB thanks for the reply I may have fkd up here (bike is + earth) as I have only 2 wires going from the new loom to the ammeter
brown/white & brown/blue no other wires at all
I installed the new Lucas single phase 120 watt reg/rec as per the instructions ie: discard original diode & rectifier
connect 2 x yellow wire from the stator then a black neg to the battery ( new reg/rec has 4 wires only 2 yellow 1 black 1 red )
and a red pos to earth/ground so do I still need a wire from the ign. switch to one side of the ammeter ?
I am the first to admit I did not take my apprentice in quantum electronics for the Hadron collider
I have just been puzzled as to why everything works apart from the neg. amps on main/dip
I will investigate further tomorrow and post my findings
-
Hi LAB thanks for the reply I may have fkd up here (bike is + earth) as I have only 2 wires going from the new loom to the ammeter
brown/white & brown/blue no other wires at all
I installed the new Lucas single phase 120 watt reg/rec as per the instructions ie: discard original diode & rectifier
connect 2 x yellow wire from the stator then a black neg to the battery ( new reg/rec has 4 wires only 2 yellow 1 black 1 red )
and a red pos to earth/ground so do I still need a wire from the ign. switch to one side of the ammeter?
Unfortunately, reg/rec instructions often don't take into account the presence of an ammeter.
so do I still need a wire from the ign. switch to one side of the ammeter?
What you need to do is completely disconnect the black negative wire from the battery and reconnect it to the ignition switch side of the ammeter.
It is probably charging as it is connected now but because the negative wire is connected to the 'wrong side' of the ammeter it won't show 'charge'.
-
Here is the wiring diagram for a similar Podtronics reg/rec with an ammeter.
The Lucas reg/rec connections for positive earth will be the same as shown with the reg/rec negative wire connected to the ignition switch side of the ammeter
https://www.oldbritts.com/17_17104.html
(https://www.oldbritts.com/image/podtronics_b.jpg)
-
thank you LAB your input is much appreciated
I will re run the reg/rec wire to the ign side of the ammeter and hop fully resolve this situation and post my findings
PS I did receive this advice from another site just now sure describes my electronics skills
-
:)
The original rectifier negative would also have been wired the same so there should be a brown/white wire at the original rectifier harness position that can be used for the reg/rec negative (black) wire connection.
-
I had all afternoon on the elecs. yesterday I ran the black neg wire (from reg/rec) to the ammeter brow/white side
and still have the same problem tried it on the other ammeter terminal terminal no different
still getting 14+ on the battery terminals when revved
although I have noticed when revved the ammeter stays at 0 it does not move at all ?
I have boyer ign fitted which has been fine for 1 year, with the new loom I have the points/condenser/diode/rec wires
these I have just insulated for now
ammeter is a new pattern item just wondering could this be giving an incorrect reading ?
also contacted the V & A museum regarding acetylene lamp details ! any input gratefully received
-
I wouldn't assume the ammeter is working properly, I recently had one that only showed a discharge and wouldn't move above the 0 mark into the + zone. It came from my box of electrical parts which is stocked from garage clearouts and the like so I've no idea of it's age or provenance I'm afraid. I didn't bother to open it, after substitution proved it was faulty I threw it.
REgards, Mark
-
thanks for the reply Mark I'm going to get another ammeter although this one is new it is a pattern part so I will replace with a genuine
item if only to eliminate a possible dud unit.
-
Hi
Once the battery is fully charged the charging stops the regulator switches off
turn the lights on for 10 min to run down the battery a bit , then start the bike and watch the ammeter
To test the ammeter just reverse the connections and the needle should read backwards, ie show charge with lights on and engine off..
John
-
Hi John thanks for the reply I have tried swapping round the ammeter terminals and yes I then get a reading of + charge ( engine off)
still a bit" lost" on this problem, here in North Wales we still have travel restrictions so I have not yet had the bike on a decent run
to see if my - 4 amp reading on the ammeter changes at all
I will do your suggested battery run down today and post my findings
-
I'm a bit lost too.
Turn the lights on and it shows a 4A discharge? Start the engine and what happens? The needle stays at 4A discharge or moves right to indicate a charging current? :-\
-
Hi Rex with engine running with main/dip on when revved the ammeter just stays at -4 till I switch to pilot then the ammeter stays at 0
and does not move even when revved at this time I am still getting a 14+ volts reading across the battery terminals ?
I'm still a bit lost
-
So from that it appears the problem hasn't changed from previously. It still seems that the ammeter works but there's a problem with the charging. I'm assuming that the 4A discharge is a steady needle reading and not fluctuating at all with engine revs?
-
Hi Rex with engine running with main/dip on when revved the ammeter just stays at -4 till I switch to pilot then the ammeter stays at 0
That suggests the ammeter is working.
I am still getting a 14+ volts reading across the battery terminals?
Could you confirm that the reg/rec negative is only connected to brown/white and not still connected to battery negative in some way?
-
Hi Rex/LAB yes still have a -4amp reading when engine is revved needle does not move at - 4 with no fluctuation
originally I did have the reg/rec neg wire straight to the battery terminal with red to earth (as per Lucas diagram)
I then ran the rec/reg neg wire straight to the ignition side of the ammeter with the brown/white wire this made no difference to my
situation still reading - 4 amp even with engine running or not
I have noticed with engine running if I use the rear brake the stop light comes on with the ammeter moving very slightly to neg while
the pedal is depressed when released the ammeter returns back to 0 ?
still looking into an an acetylene conversion just waiting for technical help from the V & A museum
-
The brake pedal is operating the stop light, hence the ammeter movement to discharge. No issues there.
So clearly you have no charging at all. Back to basics then, is the alternator generating? Sound connections to the rectifier?
-
I think he has the ammeter incorrectly connected. It's showing the battery discharging but not charging therefore the "live" side of the charging circuit is probably connected to the wrong side of the ammeter ie the battery side. It should be on the load side.
-
Yes, and with the engine running its putting 14v across the battery.
So the battery would be charging. But has bypassed the ammeter ...
If you switch the lights on, engine not running, does the ammeter show a bigger discharge ?
-
a EUREKA moment in the garage again re run the reg/rec neg wire to the ammeter this time connecting it to the left side terminal
with the brown/blue loom wire and the brown/white to the other ammeter terminal still showing -4 amp discharge
next I connect the brown/white & brown/blue wire to the left terminal & the neg from the rec/reg to the right terminal
ignition on ammeter shows 0 amps switch main/dip on and we have a slight drop on the ammeter less than 1 amp
start engine and the ammeter reads + 4 amps when revved :D also getting a healthy 14.9 volts at the battery terminals when revved
t'would appear we have a result :D so a massive THANK YOU to you all chaterlea/ ianssoamy/LAB /TGR90B mark M/ R / REX
for taking the time to give your inputs I have certainly been "a bit lost" this last week once again thank you all very happy of Criccieth
-
a EUREKA moment in the garage again re run the reg/rec neg wire to the ammeter this time connecting it to the left side terminal
with the brown/blue loom wire and the brown/white to the other ammeter terminal still showing -4 amp discharge
Brown/blue and brown/white connected to the same terminal would bypass the ammeter.
next I connect the brown/white & brown/blue wire to the left terminal & the neg from the rec/reg to the right terminal
Swapping the wires over reverses polarity across the ammeter. Discharge will show as charge and vice versa so it sounds like something still isn't right especially if brown/blue and brown/white are connected to the same ammeter terminal.
-
Forget left and right for the time being. The live lead from the regulator should be connected to the load (ignition, lights etc). The other one should go to the battery probably via the ignition switch.
The ammeter will then show the difference between what the alternator is supplying and what is being drawn by the various loads. It's actually quite simple.
-
thought I had cracked it so am I to understand I'm getting a false reading on the ammeter ? I have 14.9 volts across the batt. terminals
ammeter is responding to engine revs just fluctuates on zero on tick over & to + when revved
do I need to re route one of the 2 loom wires to the ignition switch ?
PS glad I didn't cancel my acetylene lamp conversion kit just yet !
-
thought I had cracked it so am I to understand I'm getting a false reading on the ammeter ? I have 14.9 volts across the batt. terminals
ammeter is responding to engine revs just fluctuates on zero on tick over & to + when revved
do I need to re route one of the 2 loom wires to the ignition switch ?
PS glad I didn't cancel my acetylene lamp conversion kit just yet !
I don't know what is going on there but the diagram below is, I think, correct for your T100 and shows how the brown/blue and brown/white would normally connect to the ammeter and the original brown/white charge wire (arrowed) from the rectifier is shown going to the ignition switch (although the exact connection position isn't important as long as it is on the switch side of the ammeter).
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tyPhXpj/Ammeter2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
-
Hi LAB thanks for the diagram the reason I got a new loom is because over 50+ years the original wiring had been "Modified " before I even got to it, almost all the wires were red or black when I first got it
so I will go and do more head scratching and post my findings
-
That diagram shows 2 brown/white wires off the same rectifier connection, one of which disappears off the bottom of the diagram. !
Where would that go to ?
This may have some bearing on what is going on here ...
-
That diagram shows 2 brown/white wires off the same rectifier connection, one of which disappears off the bottom of the diagram. !
Where would that go to ?
This may have some bearing on what is going on here ...
No, just the wire to the Edit: original Zener diode. The Zener has been removed according to dynamic in a previous post.
-
here is my set up stator is a new Lucas single phase 120 watt
I have at the moment the brown/blue & brown/white to ammeter left
rec/reg black wire to ammeter left
I have just been down our lane (total mile) and the ammeter is reading +4 with fluctuation main/dip on or off
battery still reads 14.9 + when revved was on 12.3 volts before ride and 12.9 upon return
at the moment I am still a bit lost and always grateful for any input
-
If a short ride gives an increase from 12.3 to 12.9V then clearly the charging side of things is working.
Obviously if the charging is satisfactory then the ammeter will show that too, assuming it's wired in correctly.
So do you get a variation from "engine off, headlamp on" to "engine on headlamp on", ie is the ammeter showing both a discharge and charge?
-
I have at the moment the brown/blue & brown/white to ammeter left
rec/reg black wire to ammeter left
I assume you mean one of those two is on the right?
Brown/blue and brown/white connected to the same terminal simply can't be correct.
It would be more helpful if you could describe the ammeter terminals as 'positive' and 'negative' rather than 'left and right'.
Edit: Or, with the brown/blue and brown/white connected that indicates a discharge when the ignition and lights are switched on then the ammeter terminal with the brown/blue is the 'battery' terminal and the other is the 'switch' terminal.
-
Hi at the moment this is how my ammeter is connected both brown/blue & brow/white are on the + terminal
the black wire from the reg/rec is connected to the - terminal
if I try to connect either the brown/ blue or the brown/white to the - neg terminal with the neg wire from the rec/reg
I just get the original problem of - 4 on main/dip
now with engine running with the above set up main/dip on or even no lights at all I get a constant +4 on the ammeter with slight
fluctuation on the needle
whilst riding the short distance today the needle still stays at + 4 all the time
I do understand I need the reg/rec wire to the ignition side of the ammeter to complete the charging circuit
but any other combination I try just gives me the - neg reading on the ammeter
I'm sure this reads as translated Welsh to all but this is my situation at the moment
also there are no other wires connected to the ammeter
-
I disconnected the wires to the main/dip leaving just the pilot connected upon start up ammeter is reading + with slight fluctuation
I have changed the ammeter wiring to (correctly) brown/white & reg/rec to + terminal and brown/blue to - terminal
a quick ride and ammeter is reading just +
at the battery terminals I have 14.9 when revved
also left the pilot/rear lamp on for 1/2 hour and got a slight - on the ammeter ( a . 7 amp drop)
another quick blast and ammeter is on +
so I think charging system is all in order
I know my previous wiring was "unconventional" but it was the only way I could get main/dip to work
headlamp looks to be original 1968 item (sealed beam) is it possible I have a faulty headlamp somewhere in the unit
has anybody else ever experienced this situation ?
I am going to order a new h/lamp and see if this cures my lighting "strange phenomenon"
-
What you need is a Terrot, or some other old fench tat.
In all my years as a motorcycle mechanic, I have never known anyone make such a fuss over a job thats should take less than two hours.
I could make a harness from scratch in that time.,and often have.
-
He is indeed making a meal of it and I wonder whether he really exists.....
-
He posts,therefore he must........... ;)
I can't be arsed to read back through all this, did you say your alternator has 4 wires? wrong. just because its new don't mean its a good thing.should be two only.
Flatten your battery,or almost,start bike turn lights on, rev engine if they come up bright all is well in north wales . bugger the ammeter its unnecessary for the runs out you'll do.
-
just asking for some help thanks for all your input
-
How much do you need?
you have 4 pages of help for a problem that probably does'nt exist,and now you think replacing a headlamp will solve an ammeter problem?
I been a bit harsh perhaps, but I think you are chasing a problem that does not exist, these ammeters have always been inccurate and unreliable,which is why later British biked mostly did away with it.
Disregard it and ride the bike.
Bear in mind labour charges from a bike mechanic these days are around 50 quid an hour you had your moneys worth of free advice on here.
-
I have now changed my new pattern ammeter for my old original unit and guess what I have a normal working main/dip/pilot system
when revved needle swings to + pos then on tickover fluctuates at 0 battery still reads 14.9 at the terminals when revved
so I relied on the pattern ammeter being 100%, looking forward to a ride out later (only 1 mile of course)
-
Hi mini me Yes I fully agree I have had sound advice on here & fully agree I have been a class A drama queen
maybe just maybe I will in future "R T F M"
-
no dynamic, not a drama queen, just,well, just................... a bit welsh .... ;)
so I relied on the pattern ammeter being 100%,
I have been involved with motorcycle just short of 60yrs,in trade and out of it, learnt early on never to trust pattern spares, these days with no original kit its worse[that stuff in lucas boxes isn't proper Lucas,]
Years in the motorcycle trade tends to make most people a bit cranky.
now get on it an ride it.
[Ps I have a welsh grand mother, a daughter married to a welshman, my best mate is welsh, so I can say what i like about wales and sheep!! :o :o :o :)]
-
I think this lockdown is getting to me "same old faces day in day out"
-
i have a handbook in spanish for it if you want :D
-
Driving instructor to Welsh lad "can you make a U turn?"
"Make it turn? I'll make it's flippin' eyes water."
-
had a pleasant ride on my T100 then time to cut the lawn on my ride on mower ............
-
excellent ;D
-
What did I say???
REgards, Mark
-
Like a ray of light shining through the gloom.