classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: Paulo Fonseca on February 16, 2021, 03:22:39 PM
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Hi,
I'm Paulo from Portugal and I'm starting to bring an old raleigh to life. The bike was dismantled when I receive it.
This bike should have a Sturmey Archer 3 speed gearbox.
My gearbox looks different from others. The lever/gear changer is very different from the ones I found in other similar bikes, they have a U shape attachement, mine it has 3 inline holes.
Looking at the images, would you say this is a Sturmey Archer 3 speed gearbox? Or it's a different brand? Or they change the leveron the bike?
Gearbox serial: BS 44835 AE
Bike frame number: L5304 (Strange L on the number and strange location of the serial number)
Engine NUmber: M14715
(http://nocomments.eu/shared/1.jpg)
(http://nocomments.eu/shared/2.jpg)
(http://nocomments.eu/shared/3.jpg)
(http://nocomments.eu/shared/4.jpg)
(http://nocomments.eu/shared/5.jpg)
(http://nocomments.eu/shared/6.jpg)
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I've found some information that shows that exists a Sturmey Arches BS Type in 1928 with serials like mine
http://www.southwalessectionvmcc.co.uk/Library/Tech%20files/sturmey%20archer%20gearboxes.pdf (http://www.southwalessectionvmcc.co.uk/Library/Tech%20files/sturmey%20archer%20gearboxes.pdf)
Year / Type / Serial
1927 / Bs / 38000
1928 / Bs / 44000
1929 / Bs / 50000
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Can you make this gearbox work with what you have ?
Boxes then didn't have a positive stop mechanism, so someone may have been updating/improvising ?
Does this bike look familiar ? Bit small to see good detail though.
If you zoom in, it looks very much like what you have ?
Or this previous thread
http://classicmotorcycleforum.com/index.php?topic=4832.0
(https://buyvintage1.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/1928_raleigh_01.jpg)
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http://suprememotos.com/uploads/postfotos/1928-raleigh-model-15-deluxe-250cc-unrestored-oily-rag-full-working-order-9.JPG
http://suprememotos.com/other_makes/15038-1928-raleigh-model-15-deluxe-250cc-unrestored-oily-rag-full-working-order.html
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Can you make this gearbox work with what you have ?
Boxes then didn't have a positive stop mechanism, so someone may have been updating/improvising ?
Does this bike look familiar ? Bit small to see good detail though.
If you zoom in, it looks very much like what you have ?
Or this previous thread
http://classicmotorcycleforum.com/index.php?topic=4832.0
(https://buyvintage1.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/1928_raleigh_01.jpg)
Hi again,
Yes, the bike is the same from that post o mentioned. I inherited the bike and now I'm going to restore it
I'm trying to put everything together to find whats missing, but it'a my first time, so I will have to search external help.
I have many pictures from bikes like mine but any of them have the same gear changer system that mine have.The lever its very different.
Are saying that they didn't have any gear lock mechanism? And this could be an improvment?
The gears shaft is drilled. I think to pass a pin that will activate the clutch.
On the other bikes there seems to be a "screw" that will rotate and push the clutch. I don't have that mechanism
(http://nocomments.eu/shared/details.jpg)
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Hi Paulo,
Your gearbox is Sturmey Archer and is basically correct for a 1928 250cc Raleigh but who knows what has been done to it over the past 90 years.
I suggest you start by getting together the various spare parts manuals available. Search both the VMCC Library and the English National Motorcycle Museum book shop for copies. Sturmey Archer produced many variants over the years to suit various manufacturers so you need to collect a few different spare parts lists to follow these things through. Photocopies are cheap and carefully studying these lsts is a good way of spending a winter evening. It makes the job much easier in the long run.
It will drive you crazy at first but it will stop you making expensive and time wasting mistakes.
The Sturmey Archer 3 speed box is not complicated. It is simple but you have to learn its little tricks.
It works best if restored to standard factory condition. It does not need "updating" or "improving".
There are also other helpful publications you may find useful. If you are just starting to learn about vintage motorcycles you will find you need to build up your own small library.
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I forgot about this site. www.sturmey-archerheritage.com , it has a useful 1929 illustrated spare parts list you can use. It's a good start.
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Most Sturmeys of that era you'd expect to see a clutch worm to activate the clutch pushrod.
Has yours been changed to something different ?
This is Norton rather than Sturmey, but the concept is the same.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZbWWtyk/clutch-worm.jpg)
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I forgot about this site. www.sturmey-archerheritage.com , it has a useful 1929 illustrated spare parts list you can use. It's a good start.
I've allready order raleigh and sturmey archer manuals.
I allready knew sturmey archer heritage. I've used it to identify my bicycle gear hubs.
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Most Sturmeys of that era you'd expect to see a clutch worm to activate the clutch pushrod.
Has yours been changed to something different ?
This is Norton rather than Sturmey, but the concept is the same.
As far as I can see my clutch actuator is different. Please see the image bellow and tell me your opinion.
(http://nocomments.eu/shared/sa-gears-case.jpg)
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It does seem to be different.
Now, the question is is this a previous owners's modification, or were some built like that ?
Albion had a lever that pivoted down, and pushed the pushrod to actuate the clutch.
Do you have a pivot point that could do similar.
Or has that previous owner started this modification, and not finished it ??
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Sturmey Archer also built the FW box with a lever arrangement rather than the worm action release. I happen to have both types of box in my shed. My Model R Matchless has an FW box fitted whilst my T/4 “project” has the same BS box as shown here. It has the worm action release fitted. I’m quite familiar with both.
Personally I think the current arrangement shown is a completely “foreign” add on and nothing to do with Sturmey Archer at all. It appears well made but nothing to do with Sturmey Archer. I also think no original Sturmey Archer part has been altered in fitting it so that returning it original as it left the factory is just a matter of re-installing what was removed without any fuss or having to re- make any piece. To me it shows a high level of trade skills. ——- but it’s not Sturmey Archer.
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Dear 33d6 and dear R, thank ou so much for your help.
I took some photos, and as you can see, the cluch lever and the gear changer mechanism feet very well in the gearbox. They could be from other bike, but they look made to this gearbox.
Looking at the patina, they look very very old.
33d6, what parts from my images do you think that don't bellong to a SA gearbox? Just the cluch and gear changer mechanism or you also include the inside parts?
Another strange fact it's the location of the bike serial number. It's on the frame neck, not under the seat.
(http://nocomments.eu/shared/sa-lever.jpg)
(http://nocomments.eu/shared/sa-leverii.jpg)
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Ah, If you've got all those bits for the clutch activation like that, then its looking good that that was made and supplied like that.
Sturmey Archers sure came in a lot of varieties....
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Nicely made, but not by Sturmey Archer, and certainly not in 1928 when foot change was not even common at the Isle of Man TT race! That said, someone has gone to a lot of trouble, and personally I'd keep it as part of the bike's history.
The other option is to convert it back to how it was (worm clutch and hand change).
Leon
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and certainly not in 1928 when foot change was not even common at the Isle of Man TT race!
I see what you mean, I hadn't considered that aspect of it.
Wasn't Harold Willis (Velocette) credited with the invention of the positive stop mechanism
- reputedly after studying the action of a farm reaping and binding machine.
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Nicely made, but not by Sturmey Archer, and certainly not in 1928 when foot change was not even common at the Isle of Man TT race! That said, someone has gone to a lot of trouble, and personally I'd keep it as part of the bike's history.
The other option is to convert it back to how it was (worm clutch and hand change).
Leon
Why do you say it's a foot change? The bike came with a hand lever (also different from the usual sturmey archer, see the pictures above)
If I manage to put everything working, I will leave it as it is.
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If not foot change, where does the linkage go??
Leon
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I agree with Leon.
That is not an original Sturmey Archer gear hinge and clutch operating system but as would Leon I’d keep it fitted on as it is a real part of the bikes history.
Someone showed real skill to do the alteration and I would be proud to show it off. It really tells a story.
It may not be a foot change as you expect it to be but it dates from an early period when no one really understood foot changes so no surprise it’s not quite right.
Best of luck with it all.
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If not foot change, where does the linkage go??
Leon
I'm not sure if I put it in the correct place.... I'm just guessing.
The linkage part that goes down its solid, doesn't bend.
I've found the "gear locker pin", see the new image.
It's also curious that the gear lever midle hole and size, fits well in the gearbox case. I have to spend more time with this puzzle :)
Does this gearbox as neutral position?
(http://nocomments.eu/shared/sa-strange-parts.jpg)
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If not foot change, where does the linkage go??
Leon
Look what I've found. This looks to be the pedal to change gears...
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Yep. And once again it looks to be nicely made.
Leon
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We see you have posted a pic elsewhere asking the brand of this lever.
https://i.ibb.co/wh0qwJx/33.jpg
There is probably more vintage (and veteran) expertise here than anywhere else on the planet. !
Lets see if anyone can fathom what this brand may be - its pretty far gone.
SA were fond of putting their mark on their (handchange) levers.
http://www.motomaniastore.com/media/img/parts/1637d33f3641ee979951a4c9b67fff3e.JPG
Who else ??
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We see you have posted a pic elsewhere asking the brand of this lever.
https://i.ibb.co/wh0qwJx/33.jpg
There is probably more vintage (and veteran) expertise here than anywhere else on the planet. !
Lets see if anyone can fathom what this brand may be - its pretty far gone.
SA were fond of putting their mark on their (handchange) levers.
http://www.motomaniastore.com/media/img/parts/1637d33f3641ee979951a4c9b67fff3e.JPG
Who else ??
Hi R, I've been a fan of this forum for several years, and I continue to be, but I need to try all possible alternatives to identify this unusual change.
The mechanism may even be a single piece, but the lever has a brand, so I believe it has been mass produced. It may not even be from an English bike, so I was even thinking of posting in the topic of European bikes ... What do you think?
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Fair enough.
I think that posting in Euro bikes here will get about the same readers.
Can you beadblast the lever to see if the logo comes up any clearer. ?
It looks like a little rust and corrosion has muddied the waters.
This may merely damage it further, so know when to stop !
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Does it say WINCO? If so, it's off a bike so rare I can't even find a photo of one. 1920-22 they say, but they didn't advertise in the Motor Cycle or exhibit at the Show.
Leon
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Hi Paul,
The hand lever is a seperate piece. You can't be sure it is an original part of the whole mechanism. All that trademark identifies is the lever itself. It is not a good indication for who manufactured the rest.
I agree the change is well made and has all the indications of a commercial operation but I see it as an aftermarket accessory and probably nothing to do with any gearbox manufacturer. Eventually one day the information will just fall into your arms but I wouldn't let it distract me from getting the bike back on the road.
Cheers,
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Does it say WINCO? If so, it's off a bike so rare I can't even find a photo of one. 1920-22 they say, but they didn't advertise in the Motor Cycle or exhibit at the Show.
I will try to "clean" the lever a little more. See the new picture attached with a draw of what I can see (white line) and what I think I can see (blue line)
We would all like to find a "treasure" but that should not be the case :)
The hand lever is a seperate piece. You can't be sure it is an original part of the whole mechanism. All that trademark identifies is the lever itself. It is not a good indication for who manufactured the rest.
I agree the change is well made and has all the indications of a commercial operation but I see it as an aftermarket accessory and probably nothing to do with any gearbox manufacturer. Eventually one day the information will just fall into your arms but I wouldn't let it distract me from getting the bike back on the road.
I very much appreciate the process of researching and discovering the history the story behind each piece.
I think the lever could be part of the change/kit because otherwise it wouldn't have a lever or it would have the original Sturmey Archer lever.
This bike had a different life... ehehe
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you won't believe it, I think I was photographing the brand up side down
now, does it say anything to you?
tomorrow I try to photograph in daylight