classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: twolitre on December 07, 2007, 11:14:41 PM
-
???I have bought a 5T (alternator) Triumph to refurbish. It has a largely disconnected jumble of non-standard wiring and a unit which resembles a small dynamo in place of the distributor. Two coils are fitted with connections to another unidentified unit (condenser?) What is it and how should it be wired? Oh, coils and bulbs etc. are 12 volt and the coils' positive terminals seem to be wired directly to the battery positive (earth).
-
It has a largely disconnected jumble of non-standard wiring and a unit which resembles a small dynamo in place of the distributor. Two coils are fitted with connections to another unidentified unit (condenser?) What is it and how should it be wired?
Sorry but that isn't really a lot of information to go on? Would there be any chance that you could post a photo of this system? Or email it to VintageBike if you have problems doing that?
The only one I can think of similar to what you have described is one of the Kirby Rowbotham conversion kits that uses the Boyer Bransden ignition system? http://www.kirbyrowbotham.com/ignitions.php?page=2
Is the "unidentified unit" a rectangular (black, red or blue?) plastic box?
-
Thanks for your reply. The Kirby Rowbotham site does not appear to have anything similar, though the three hole mounting flange shown in Mk 3 is like the one on my 5T. I have photo's and I will try to load them. This is my first entry on this site and I have not sussed it out yet. please be patient while I try.
Jim.
-
The Kirby Rowbotham site does not appear to have anything similar, though the three hole mounting flange shown in Mk 3 is like the one on my 5T.
That three hole mounting type would be more likely to be a magneto replacement type though I think?
You mentioned that it was a "5T (alternator)" so I presumed it to be a 5TA, is it actually a pre-unit 5T? What year is it?
I have photo's and I will try to load them. This is my first entry on this site and I have not sussed it out yet. please be patient while I try.
No problem there whatsoever.
-
The bike is a 5T pre-unit. Unregistered (been in Malaya). TOMCC dating cert. says it was exported in 1957, but I think eng/frame no. 08275 suggests a little earlier manufacture. Swinging arm/alternator model ( I have not checked if it still has an alternator!), but if the distributor replacement was a mag. it would not have twin (standard coil ignition type) coils would it?
Struggling with my pics which are currently too high resolution for the system. Trying to reduce them.
-
Swinging arm/alternator model ( I have not checked if it still has an alternator!), but if the distributor replacement was a mag. it would not have twin (standard coil ignition type) coils would it?
If it did have the points/coil distributor system (which can be replaced with a mag.?) then it should only have the one coil I think, and this coil would have been mounted on top of the distributor unit for 1957?
Are you certain that the "08275" number is correctly written as it doesn't seem to fit, seeming to be from much earlier?
-
I have sent photos to CVM. Hope they are inserted. The frame and engine numers are identical and exactly as I listed them. I have no V5c as yet - it never has had one, so I have to accept them at face value. There is absolutely no evidence that they have been tampered with. The pics are two views of the distributor replacement and one of the other part which is uncoloured and in no way can be described as a 'box'.
-
The frame and engine numers are identical and exactly as I listed them. I have no V5c as yet - it never has had one, so I have to accept them at face value. There is absolutely no evidence that they have been tampered with.
Sorry! My mistake,
I think that number would be correct for 1957 after all.
In fact it would appear to be a fairly late '57 production year number? (1957 5T numbers 01797-010253) so was probably manufactured early to mid '57 as 'production' years were not the same as calendar years.
-
The 5T had a distributor with a single coil 'piggy backed' onto it and an alternator on the drive side of the crankshaft. It's a bit confusing as the distributor looks a bit like a mag and it's fitted in the old magneto position but your setup sounds correct so the chances are the rest of the equipment will be correct too. H_N
-
"sounds correct"????!!!! what was I saying? No 5Ts came with twin coils so I would presume these were a result of a 12 volt conversion. The T100 ran a mag until 1959 but that still ran a dynamo and yours sounds like neither. Could this "unit that looks like a small dynamo" be a distributor with the cap missing?H_N
-
Sorry for the delay in responding. My router overheats and sometimes needs a rest.
I have had a 1955 5t before and I am quite familiar with the standard ignition set up. I was also a fully qualified motor engineer until age overcame me! The distributor replacement in no way resembles an 18D2. There is no cap - HT leads are straight from coils to plugs and the body of the unit is almost 3" in diameter and overall is about the same size as a medium can of baked beans. There are two low tension leads coming from it as far as I can see and these seem to go to the other unidentified unit.
I have so far been unable to find any motorcyclist or mechanic who is familiar with it. I've certainly never met anything like it in 50 years in the motot trade.
-
Henry (I hope that's OK). If it does not contravene the terms of this site, could you email me at jamesrambler@hotmail.co.uk so I can send photos direct? If you include your phone number I could perhaps explain better directly. I suppose here is no chance you live anywhere near Chesterfield?
-
The T100 ran a mag until 1959 but that still ran a dynamo and yours sounds like neither.
The original setup for a 1957 5T Speed Twin would have been a (DKX2A?) distributor from 1953-on, and a single 6V (Q6) coil and RM14 (very early type was RM12) alternator was used from the 1953 (RM12) model year-on.
The twin 12V coils do certainly appear to be part of the electronic conversion, hopefully the photos may throw some light on what the "unidentified unit" is, unfortunately the description uncoloured and not a box doesn't give us much to go on, nevertheless there is a fair chance that the origin of the parts can be identified, and even if it can't be, then it shouldn't be that much trouble to figure the correct ignition wiring layout for it once we know exactly what we are dealing with?
-
Unfortunately we are a bit hamstrung. The photos don't seem to have worked. Describing the thing that is 'not a box' would be like trying to describe a pair of binoculars to someone who has never seen any. A picture is worth a thousand words they say, but the pics are not working.
-
so I can send photos direct?
If you would care to email copies of the photos to me (click my email icon at the far left side of this message) then I could post them up here for you.
-
A little bit more. If I could find any maker's name or part number it would obviously help. I can find nothing on any visible surface and I am reluctant to dismantle things because I may have trouble if I disturb the timing.
-
Oh dear! I am not exactly the best with computers. That method always results in qa messege 'host not recognised. I have no idea why and I do not know what to do about it. I only succeed with straight forward emails.
-
Here's another system from BT-H. http://bt-h.biz/twin_mag.htm
It is a self contained magneto replacement unit, so runs without any need for battery power and this type may also fit the distributor mounting?
I'm not saying this is the one, but are there any similarities to your own?
-
That method always results in qa messege 'host not recognised. I have no idea why and I do not know what to do about it. I only succeed with straight forward emails.
OK, I will email you.
-
Rather similar, except for the square section in the middle. It looks a little shorter and min has NO HT leads from it, only two low tension leads which looklike they may be 14/.012 (or 14/.3 if more modern).
-
OK here are the photos from twolitre:
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b73/Les3066/November07_003.jpg)
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b73/Les3066/November07_004.jpg)
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b73/Les3066/November07_007.jpg)
But I'm not sure we are dealing with anything 'electronic' here (the parts look far too old?).
The unidentified item could be some kind of ballast resistor? (I will have to check on that)
-
Or as you said, the unidentified item could be some kind of double condenser unit?
I did get it into my head that this conversion would be some kind of electronic setup, but from looking at the photos there's nothing to suggest that at all really?
As you said the bike has spent some time in Malaya then this system may have been cobbled up from anything to keep it running?
The cup shaped part of the distributor looks like some kind of cover held in place against the primary drive inner casting by that spring clip? Does that part come off?
-
The 'spring clip' is merely a support bracket bolted to the inner primary chain case. If the unit does come apart it will probably be from the other end by undoing the hexagon (quick thread?) screws.
On looking again at my photos, it seems to me that the flanged part may have been fabricated (not very professionally) from a distributor body (possibly Delco) which might suggest that the cylindrical part was intended for some totally different engine/use.
Jim
-
So the next thing would be to identify the wiring, as that was your original question.
This bike has apparently been converted to 12V, so I would expect the coils are likely to be 12V items, can you identify them?
From your original description the system appears to be wired positive earth, so I would expect there to be a Neg wire connected to the distributor from the battery (via an ignition switch?) and a wire to each of the coils if there are double points in that distributor?
If there is a single points set in there, then it could be operating as a 'wasted spark' system with two 6V coils wired in series, both coils producing simultaneous sparks at the plugs for each crankshaft revolution, one of the two sparks being alternately 'wasted'.
If the unidentified unit is a condenser pack then I would expect wires from it to connect to each one of the points wires at some point between the points and the coils?
-
Thanks. I think I will have to put this 'on hold' for a day or two while I do some dismantling. Obviously there must be a trigger somewhere (ie. points or a substitute) which might be a clue. I did wonder about a 'wasted spark' setup as you mention and also about energy transfer. I'll try to get the cylindrical part off and trace what wiring I can. As I said the wiring is a jumble. Wires twisted together with no trace of the original harness and no attempt at rational colour coding. Many circuits are disconnected or have wires missing.
I do intend to rip it all out and rewire with a new harness as a start (which will no doubt need modifying) and if the worst comes to the worst reverting to a more standard setup if I can locate a distributor or suitable alternative.
Jim.
-
Hah! Now I feel a right idiot!
Removing the cover on the 'baked beans' tin revealed two sets of points independently wired to the two coils via the strange unit which must obviously be some kind of patent twin condenser. If L.A.B. is kind enough to post the pics. (which seems to be beyond my capabilities) the set up will be clearer. Note the disconnected wiring and wonderful (economic?) method of connecting wires to the contact breakers, This may be the standard Malayan method. All wiring connections are a variation of this method, but some are enhanced by yellow plastic insulation tape.
Now. Does anyone know where I might obtain a correct Lucas distributor for this bike? I feel a retrograde mood coming on.
Jim.
-
If L.A.B. is kind enough to post the pics. (which seems to be beyond my capabilities) the set up will be clearer.
Jim,
Thanks for your email, and it really is a pleasure to do this; -so here they are:
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b73/Les3066/10_December07_003.jpg)
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b73/Les3066/10_December07_004.jpg)
Jim said:
"I have also included a pic.of my 1959 5TA imitating a 5T just to show that my other bikes are in rather better condition."
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b73/Les3066/Sep06387.jpg)
And:
"Also one of two of my Triumphs fifty years apart. I'm sat on the on in the black and white photo (i Don't look like that now!) I wish I still had the one with me on it."
Sorry the photos below are rather small, (perhaps Jim could send a higher res. image version?), as I suspect Nigel would like to add one or both of them to the photo section?
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b73/Les3066/Triumph_then_and_now.jpg)
-
Thanks for your interest and help everyone. I think it is time to sign this off now.
Just a historic comment. YRA 46 in the black photo was only two years old when the photo was taken in 1957 in Douglas IOM during TT week with a 'PURMA' camera (historic in its own right). If you look carefully you will see that it has only one mirror. It had two when it left Ramsey, but the other vibrated off at well beyond recommended maximum revs. climbing away from Ramsey Hairpin. Shortly afterwards the bike had just over 100 mph on the clock between Brandish and Hillberry with TWO up! The pillion passenger insisted on buying it after that. I know 5t's could not do that, but when Bill Lomas had it for sale about a year later in his Clay Cross Shop at a rather inflated price he said "I don't know what has been done to this bike but it is far far faster than it should be". He would not believe me when I told him it used to be mine and that it was 'bog-standard'.
I would give my eye teeth to get the bike back, but I imagine it is long gone.
Regards to all Jim Walker.