classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: beesa on April 21, 2008, 04:24:53 PM
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hi everybody
can anyone please give me some help, I have been asked to help a friend refurbish a triumph motorbike, I have very little information about the bike as it has spent many years up on the east coast of south africa and has had the frame modified in a very rough and ready way. The only identifcation I can make is the bike's engine number which is H20809, I believe that makes the model a 1961 vintage it is 500cc capacity and is a 'unit' construction, can anyone come up with further details on the information above, secondly I have been given another challenge!! in the form of a box of bits, a triumph motor bike again, and again the only identifying information I have is the engine number which is HG60917 and that it is a T120 5speed and I believe that the capacity is 650cc and again unit construction can anyone in the forum give me any history on these two 'old ladies' and can I still get parts, is it possible to refurbish them, are workshop manuals and parts lists available and anything else I should know would be greatfully received.
what I should also add is this refurbishment project is happening (hopefully) in south africa these bikes are with me in sa so I would also like to know if it's possible to get parts shipped out to sa
thanking everyone in anticipation
regards mick
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Those identifications sound right.
Both good bikes, and spares are readily available, as are manuals.
If you can do basic mechanics, neither should really be a problem (local mods and years of abuse aside) to renovate.
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Looks like your T120 is a July 1972 model. I've had parts sent to Europe from the UK for my Triumphs so I can't see any reason you can't get some bits sent a bit further. HN
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If you need any spares for your Triumphs, let me know what you are after (drop me an email) and I should be able to help.
Cheers
Nigel Wynne
www.vintagebike.co.uk
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thanks to Rex,Henry Norton & Nigel Wynne for info
regards beesa
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can anyone give me more information on "oil in the frame" triumphs, when did they come into production, workshop manual, are they available and any other useful stuff thanks
beesa
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1971, Haynes do one. Handle very well, but ugly as sin.
Loved in the US, laughed at in the UK.
Most reliable Trumpet I ever owned.........
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hey Rex
this pile of bits (I do mean pile of bits in the most literal sense at the mo its just half a dozen full boxes) with an engine number 'HG60917' T120 5spd the build date has been put at july 1972 would this be an 'oil in frame' model from the factory? is the Haynes manual comprehensive enough for a complete beginner (no real in depth knowledge of Trumpets only what I remember from 40 years ago!) and as I asked before the spares are readily available, can you give me any good addresses :-[of suppliers who might ship overseas
thanks beesa
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Date sounds right (mine was GG- a June 72)
This was OIF, and I find Haynes to be adequate all-rounders, but I'm sure the factory manual (or even the Kim White CD) would be better.
Spares are probably the most available of any classic (beats Jap-crap by a mile), and for spares suppliers you need to Google it.
IME spares suppliers ship world-wide now, but there may be someone close to you.
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Some good Triumph parts suppliers:
http://www.lencraigandsons.co.uk/
http://www.tms-motorcycles.co.uk/
http://www.tri-corengland.com/index.html
http://www.btinternet.com/~hawkshaw.motorcycles/
I do not personally recommend the Haynes Unit Bonneville manual, as much of the information in it is only relevant to the pre-OIF models. Significant changes were made to the later T120 & T140 models, however the Haynes leaves out a lot of important information relevant to the later models, which can leave owners somewhat puzzled when they find their bike is different to what is in the Haynes book.
I do suggest you get a copy of the factory manual that covers the actual production year of the bike, and these are sometimes available from the parts suppliers, or from specialist motorcycle technical book suppliers, such as:
http://www.brucemain-smith.com/
http://www.andover-norton.co.uk/JRP/jrabout.htm
And I would suggest that you also get a copy of the correct model parts book as well?
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Yeah, it's definitely worthwhile getting the relevant parts book. For detailed descriptions and general information the books below are pretty handy although even these have some conflicting information. Also be warned, none paint a particularly good picture of the early oil in frame bikes.
Triumph Bonneville by Steve WilsonTriumph Motorcycle Restoration Guide by David GaylinBonnie by J R NelsonTriumph Twin Restoration by Roy Bacon
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sorry to labour the point and it sounds like I'm a real 'thicko' ahh can I ask (again) about the 1961 500cc unit construction machine, engine number H20809
is there an identification number/letter series eg TR something and what would you suggest as the most comprehensive workshop manual to buy/use, simple questions ok but I'm a bit of a 'KISS' person and just want to make a good job of the refurbishment for a close friend, I do have reasonable workshop skills but have not worked on triumphs before
thanks in anticipation to all you fellow bikers
beesa
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As it is a 1961 (unit) then it is going to be either a 5TA 'Speed Twin' or T100 'Tiger 100' model?
There ought to be an engine prefix that would identify it (either 5TA or T100)?
Here are some 1960 models that would be similar to the 1961 model
Speed Twin:
http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/Bike%20Directories/Triumph%20Bikes/pages/Triumph-Speed-Twin-60.htm
1960 Tiger 100:
http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/Bike%20Directories/Triumph%20Bikes/pages/Triumph-Tiger-100SS-60.htm
The information given previously about spare parts and manual suppliers would still apply, I think.
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[is there an identification number/letter series eg TR something
There should be (never seen one that hasn't) a prefix to the engine number to identify the model.
If you did have TR as a prefix, you've got a TR5A/C Trophy, on of the rarest Triumphs ever, and potentially worth big money. A one-year-only 1961 bike, and the first ever Triumph unit competition bike as ridden by Triumph works riders.
Production numbers seem to vary between 300-691 depending on who says it.
Does it have the "distributor" engine still?
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hi guys thanks for the response, I have found the engine number prefix "5TA" then the H20809 so that makes the original bike a 'Speed Twin" is that correct? and yes there is a distributor behind the engine barrels on the right hand side
another question please, there are three wires coming out the bottom of the engine, seems to be located between gearbox and clutch housing these I assume to be from the alternator, they would go to the rectifier/regulator unit hey can anyone tell me which terminals the wires connect to, I assume two would be the ac input to the rectifier but the third I don't know, but there again am I correct about two being the rectifier ac input?
again is there a "best' workshop manual for this model triumph, I just don't want to buy one and find I could have got better when I'm so far away from the UK
thanks and cheers everyone I'll be waiting!!
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hi guys thanks for the response, I have found the engine number prefix "5TA" then the H20809 so that makes the original bike a 'Speed Twin" is that correct?
Yes, that should make it a Speed Twin.
there are three wires coming out the bottom of the engine, seems to be located between gearbox and clutch housing these I assume to be from the alternator,
Very likely, what are the colours of those wires?
they would go to the rectifier/regulator unit hey can anyone tell me which terminals the wires connect to, I assume two would be the ac input to the rectifier but the third I don't know, but there again am I correct about two being the rectifier ac input?
There should be a rectifier, and two alternator wires go to it, assuming the three wires you have found are light Green, mid Green and dark Green?
The light and dark green wires can connect to either one of the rectifier outer terminals (3 terminals?).
However, this is where it gets a little complicated, as those early 6V alternator systems used the ignition and lighting switches to regulate output, by switching in the extra alternator (mid Green) wire for lighting, which according to the wiring diagram I have, mid Green goes to terminal 16 of the PRS8 combined ignition & lighting switch.
is there a "best' workshop manual for this model triumph, I just don't want to buy one and find I could have got better when I'm so far away from the UK
thanks and cheers everyone I'll be waiting!!
I couldn't really say for sure if one would be better for you than another? As they all seem to leave out some pretty vital pieces of information at times!
Maybe the Haynes would be the better option for you as they show things step-by-step with photos (sometimes not very good photos) although the Haynes manuals often try to cover too many model types in the same book, which can sometimes be confusing.
http://www.haynes.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=27112&langId=-1
The original factory manuals were really meant as reference books for motorcycle dealer workshops, rather than to be used private owners, as is more common these days, so tend to be written in a way that assumes the person reading it has had a certain amount of experience and training.
There's also the American Clymer manuals, and these are normally very good for the enthusiast.
The particular manual you require covers many different models of British bikes, and I have no idea how much of that manual space is devoted to the 5TA model. And it's really meant for 63-on unit 500 models.
http://www.clymer.com/Book.aspx?bid=637&title=Clymer+Collection+Series+-+British+Street+Bikes
However the Owners' Instruction Manuals of that period are somewhat of a mini-manual in themselves, so can be useful.
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The Haynes manuals are pretty good for wiring diagrams etc. although if the bike is to be ridden regularly it may be a good move to uprate the electrics to 12volt and perhaps (dare I say it?) electronic ignition.
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can anyone please help me with the 1961 engine triumph alternator output wiring identification, 3 wires exiting engine where/to what terminals on rectify/regulator do I conect them do I need to identify each wire? is the unit three or single phase thanks
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can anyone please help me with the 1961 engine triumph alternator output wiring identification,
I have already given that information? If what you have doesn't match that, then please could you say why it doesn't match?
3 wires exiting engine where/to what terminals on rectify/regulator do I conect them do I need to identify each wire?
Again, I have already given that information? If you've found something is different then please can you say why it is different? Yes, you do need to identify each wire.
is the unit three or single phase thanks
The original 1961 alternator would have been single phase, with two output wires going to the rectifier and a third separate output wire going to the ignition/lighting switch.
There were no actual three-phase Lucas alternators until 1976 (RM24).
Just because there are three wires that doesn't necessarily make it three phase.
However it must be understood that anything on that particular machine could have been changed over the last 47 years.
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Beesa, I think you really need to get a manual. Your questions would be answerable instantly if you had the info in front of you.
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hi guys
many many apologies to everyone, what a 'pillock' I am did not thinking to look for the SECOND page!!! hey it's terrible getting old 'senior moments' seem to come on a very regular basis how am I going to manage to refurbish this trumpet if I can't manage my correspondence
thanks everybody again for your advice and help and I'll try to do better in the future (navigating my forum page)
beesa
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hi everybody
anyone help me with this problem or give me some pointers please
Triumph Trident 1969 engine number:- C02753t150t
when it was running centre cylinder exhaust pipe was cool to cold, left unit not too hot right extremely hot, the bike was then given to 'someone' for service work including tappet adjustment, oil/filter change, carbs cleaned and I think an attempt at checking the timing was carried out (not too sure there) anyway the bike refuses to start now and I've been asked to look at it (for a friend)
can anyone give me a few pointers, as I've said before I'm an enthusiast with a mechanical background, but nothing about tridents, twins ok tridents zero
thanks everybody
regards sidecar
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Sorry, but from what you said, I'm not sure if you've actually looked at the bike yet, as you said you have been "asked to look at it", so may not have actually done so yet? Were those symptoms described to you, or did you mean that you have actually looked at it?
It's a bit difficult to say what the problem (or problems) could be, other than it could be either an ignition, carbs or engine problem?
I can only suggest that you have a look at it and check the normal things like plugs, ignition timing, tappet adjustment and carbs etc.?
And then come back here once you have more of a rough idea what the problem could possibly be, or at least be able to tell us what things you have found it not to be? And what modifications have been made, for instance, has an electronic ignition system been fitted (if so, what type?) etc..
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thanks L.A.B.
as you wrote, the symptoms have only been described to me and I have not seen the bike yet, the bike should be with me tomorrow then I will be able to get a look at it.
I will check out the items you have suggested then come back to you, thanks for those pointers
Will be back in touch as soon as I can
regards sidecar
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For specialist Triumph/BSA triple advice and information I would however suggest that you register with the Triples Online website, as any questions you may have will soon get the attention of many highly experienced and helpful triple enthusiasts on the forum there: http://www.triplesonline.com/
If you need to know anything about Triumph and BSA triples then Triples Online is the place to ask.
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thanks L.A.B.
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Beesa, maybe I can help with electric diagrams, done a A65T OIF while ago, very similar. Curently buzy with a Triumph T110 pre-unit. Regards, Barend
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hey Barend
thanks for the message, any information on the "OIF" models would be much appreciated, wiring diagrams especially, do you have any pictures/photos of the bike in it's original form, the one I have is in several cardboard boxes at the moment, but here's the engine and model number HG 60917 T120 5 speed
regards beesa
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Hi Beesa,
I did a rebuild of the '71 A65T, started with no knowledge of British bikes, previously only done Japanese. Usefull was a parts manual for the bike, and a Haynes workshop manual. Build up a library of pictures from bikes that gets advertised on e-bay, normally the seller would place a number of photos from different angles, became very usefull in getting detail during the rebuild. Drop me an e-mail at barendj@lantic.net, based in Richards Bay, South Africa. Regards, Barend