classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: andyw1260 on September 18, 2008, 11:49:56 AM
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What is going on with Classic bike prices in a downturn. On an online auction site there is a 68 T120R import. with a current bid of £6600 the reserve price has still not been met. Just looking at the pictures of it you can see it`s a bitsa bike. £60Quid wheels, no oil breather back mudguard, bolts holding on tool side cover, 69 brakes, no transfers . If you were to look the bike over you maybe would find other modern parts including metric bolts!
I believe restorers should have a set standard or maybe it`s buyer BEWARE.
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What is going on with Classic bike prices in a downturn. On an online auction site there is a 68 T120R import. with a current bid of £6600 the reserve price has still not been met. Just looking at the pictures of it you can see it`s a bitsa bike. £60Quid wheels, no oil breather back mudguard, bolts holding on tool side cover, 69 brakes, no transfers . If you were to look the bike over you maybe would find other modern parts including metric bolts!
I believe restorers should have a set standard or maybe it`s buyer BEWARE.
If people want to pay stupid over the top money, let em'.
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Metric bolts...AAARRGGGGHH!!!!!
There was a thread that got quite heated a few months ago regarding metric fixings on UK classic bikes.
I absolutely agree that some people have ridiculously inflated opinions on the value of their bikes but it has to be buyer beware. One of the most interesting aspects of buying a classic is getting to know your make and model, what to avoid as well. Some of the most valuable bikes are very easy to fake (RGS, Velo Thruxton, tangerine T120) and if you were laying out your 10 grand or whatever for one of these you wouldn't dream of buying without making absolutely sure the bike was genuine or at least knowing what aspects of it weren't. Why should it be any different if you could only afford a couple of thousand?
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[]Metric bolts...AAARRGGGGHH!!!!!
There was a thread that got quite heated a few months ago regarding metric fixings on UK classic bikes.
Rightly so, as it's both unnecessary and "cheap". Even worse when they're threaded into an Imperial-tapped hole...
Unfortunately as many have found out to their cost, people's standards of restoration differ widely, so as said, it really is important to check out a potential buy very carefully.
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I have a Gold Star DBD34 500 Replica, and i would put it up against any genuine Goldie.
Its a replica because it has a B31 frame, which is identical to a genuine frame apart fron 2 lugs welded on the bottom rear frame loop to accomadate the rear set footrests, and the frame number.
I just did'nt fancy paying an extra £4-5000 extra for 2 lugs and a CB32 frame number.
There are a lot of fake Goldies around, with re-stamped frame and engine numbers out there.
You have to be on your guard.
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I have a Gold Star DBD34 500 Replica, and i would put it up against any genuine Goldie.
Its a replica because it has a B31 frame, which is identical to a genuine frame apart fron 2 lugs welded on the bottom rear frame loop to accomadate the rear set footrests, and the frame number.
My day-to-day is a 65 Bonnie with a 66 engine, 12volt electrics, electronic ignition, concentric carbs and 69 forks. It looks, rides and sounds just like a good Bonneville should. I don't really care if some purist doesn't like it because the numbers don't match up - but having said that I didn't buy it for 'matching numbers' money.
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i think if people want to spend a fortune on a perfect museum piece thats up to them,but if you wish to ride and enjoy a bike, a basket case or not so standard bike is a good way to go. i built a 57 thunderbird a few years back wich i use on a regular bases it is matching numbers but was just a pile of bits with a lot of the correct parts missing i built the bike to my own taste with the parts i had,it has a tls front brake (its nice to be able to stop)early bonnie forks headlamp,twin 389 monobloc carbs on a iron head,rev counter, early tank pre 57 style,twelve volt electrics,slickshift gearbox and its painted non standard colours
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Looks really nice Thunderbird - I do wish mine looked as neat as yours. How do you find the TLS with the 60-62 forks?
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Thanks for your comments Henry,the tls is a vast improvement to standard brake but it is a case of gently braking as it works well i did get a bit of juddering in the forks when i 1st built the bike but this was due to the head race bearings being a little slack,i also intend to strip the forks down in the winter and replace the oil seals as one leaks a little and also upgrade the springs for heavier ones.getting back to the crazy prices i did sell my 61 bonnie about 6 years ago i owned the bike for 20 years it was matching numbers and a very standard and original bike, needed the money at the time but a regretfull sale :'( a great bike to ride and own but due to the crazy prices i doubt i will own one again unless i win the lottery cheers steve :)
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:) Things are only worth what someone pays for it.My bike is'nt a bike meant for showing,i hope to ride it all year and in most weathers [assuming it stays reliable].
I have seen too many bikes turn up on trailers to bike shows [only if no clouds in the sky] ,why own it??.
There seems to be a "purists" group and a "practicality" group of owners but unfortunately we are all open to con artists :-[
Happy riding all :)
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Here is a pic of my 350 Goldie.
This is a special which has 18inch Borrani rims, to give more choice of tyres, hence the wider gap on the front mudguard.
Why an orange tank?
Because i had a Goldie 40 years ago with an orange tank.
(http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc331/GoldstarDBD500/Goldie1.jpg)
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nice looking bike goldie allways fancied a goldstar myself.
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After seeing these two bikes (both wouldn't look out of place in a bike show) I've decided not to post a picture of my dirty, tarnished, scratched 65 Bonnie. :-[ I'm sure you'd put some of the 'absolute originality' fanatics to shame.
Following on from Thunderbird's comment, I also have an early Bonneville (59) which one day I'll get around to restoring. The stupid thing is it's worth more than my car and other bike put together, even as a pile of rusty, dented parts.....
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its not what you ride henry its the fact that you do ride it even if it is scratched and dirty,mines only bright and shiny because its newly built,59 bonnie lucky man :)cheers steve
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This is my Norton Big4 bought for £15 in 1972 it used not a trailer queen
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r183/brucebig4/S1030428.jpg)
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Bruce,
Your bike is brilliant and in many ways more 'real' than a restored bike. I suspect that you would never part with it as it owes you at least £15.
If you had the money and/or OCD you could make your bike better than new but you would probably be scared to ride it! I have no problem with people that want to restore bikes nor do I have a problem with those that either don't want to or can't.
Don't let REX see your rear view mirror as that looks suspiciously Japanese!
Cheers and I hope you have another 36 years with your Norton.
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It gets used a lot hence the mirror note the towbar for a small trailer and also I have fitted a car dynamo to it which gives me good lights and loud hooter.Over the years I have been to the south of (http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r183/brucebig4/img018-1.jpg) France Switzerland,Germany,France Belguim,Holland on it
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This is my Norton Big4 bought for £15 in 1972 it used not a trailer queen
It looks all there. A restorers dream.
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Nice pics Bruce - nice bike too. You're a bit eraly for 'Featherbed Lane though aren't you? Maybe you should look for something like 'Garden Gate Close' (or was that the plunger frame....?) How about 'Rigid Road' ? ;D
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great to see bikes like this in regular use bruce so much character would be spoiled if restored. :)cheers steve
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I`ve been reading these comments on crazy prices with interest and as stated already they are only worth what some ones going to pay for them. There is some over priced grey porridge out there, but I can remember being offered a DBD 34 back in 1974 for a crazy £1,000, I bought a new suzuki for £340.
This is not an attack on the fantastic hand crafted personaly built machines that are loved and cherished by the owner,but when it comes to the gold star the real thing was also hand built by the competition department at Small Heath. The genuine thing comes with a dyno test record, they run like a swiss watch, the sweetest thing to ride, fantastically exhillerating on twisty roads. We also shouldn't forget it was the most successful production racer Britain ever produced.
There are two sides to the coin, the cost of good restoration is now very expensive and I would say there are also some under valued bikes out there.
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We also shouldn't forget it was the most successful production racer Britain ever produced.
Fans of 'Slippery Sam' might have something to say about this, haha.
I agree that old bikes are only worth what people will pay, though. When all's said and done, you can pay 120,000 pounds for a scungy old brough capable of 100mph (!) but will never be taken to said speed because the owner will be too busy polishing it and showing it off ... or you can spend a sixth of that price and get a modern japanese 500cc that will do 130mph in second gear AND will do it safely, reliably and without leaking oil hahaha.
I suppose the difference is that whilst japan makes hundreds of thousands (millions?) of bikes every year, there's only a limited amount of A10 frames being chopped to look like goldstars per annum - but with modern 250s doing better speeds than most british bikes it does beg the question 'why?' when someone tells you they plan to 'hot up' a british motor for the road...
that snortin sidevalve looks great, by the by
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When all's said and done, you can pay 120,000 pounds for a scungy old brough capable of 100mph (!) but will never be taken to said speed because the owner will be too busy polishing it and showing it off ... or you can spend a sixth of that price and get a modern japanese 500cc that will do 130mph in second gear AND will do it safely, reliably and without leaking oil hahaha.
If a high top end and modern reliability is all that's required, then it rather misses the point to buy a old British bike..... :D
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I like my old Bonnie because it's loud, it shakes, it smells of petrol and oil, (it only drips a tiny amount) and it's got that deep, rich aura of history surrounding it that just makes it nice to be on. That's asides from the fact that it's actually good fun to ride and has easily reached limits that give the rider some involvement beyond being just a means of transport. It comes apart like meccano so I can tinker with it in my spare time and every now and again this results in an improvement, which is satisfying and heightens my feeling of involvement again.
Remember, a Bonneville or a Gold Star will both exceed the speed limit by about 40 MPH - they just won't exceed it 'comfortably', which, for me is the whole point ;)
If I had a Brough I'm not sure I would want to risk wrapping £120,000 around a lamp post either........
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When all's said and done, you can pay 120,000 pounds for a scungy old brough capable of 100mph (!) but will never be taken to said speed because the owner will be too busy polishing it and showing it off ... or you can spend a sixth of that price and get a modern japanese 500cc that will do 130mph in second gear AND will do it safely, reliably and without leaking oil hahaha.
If a high top end and modern reliability is all that's required, then it rather misses the point to buy a old British bike..... :D
But there is one thing that Japaneese bikes will never have which British bikes ooze,
That's character and indevidualality.
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I dont think you can compare modern sports bikes with old british iron they are worlds apart,if you ride an old british bike you do it for the enjoyment, not for the speeds modern sports bikes do, my old thunderbird is more than capable of exceeding the Ton plenty fast enough for me. i think part of the enjoyment is the maitanance side,british bikes are very easy to work on,reliability comes with use and getting to know your bike,modern bikes can be complicated and expensive to put right.getting back to crazy prices i think (example £120,000 brough they become just an investmat tool)
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A Brough SS100 went for £150,000 this month at Bonhams - obviously global recession doesn't affect all of us!!!
It's sad to think that a bike like that is just too valuable to ride on the road. To do so would be a real pleasure for the rider (worry asides) but maybe just as importantly it gives people on the streets a chance to experience a unique part of our history that's otherwise forgotten by the majority. Most people on the street know what a Honda is but would they have heard of a Brough Superior (let alone what they stood for or were capable of in the context of the times)?
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Brough superior certainly were a rolls royce of motorcycle in there day and were expensive when new and deserve a high value for what they are, but as prices do go ever higher it puts other more exotic bikes out of reach to the every day enthusiast the people that have have kept these bikes going over the years and have done so for the love of there machines.The fact that that prices are still rising in are current financial climate will only fuel the investors wanting financial gain and a good return and take more machines out of the public domain and into private collections.
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There are some nice looking bikes here! Does it matter if they are not original?
I hate to see over-restored 'show' machines running away with awards at shows, while other excellent bikes reflecting 'as produced' condition are ignored.
I also do not see any problem with uprated parts or accessories, especially if fitted with extra safety in mind. I believe the Montague Motor Museum refuse over restored exhibits though they will accept added accessories or modifications which could legitimately have been done during the machine's normal life and use. A policy I wholeheartedly endorse.
My own 1957 Triumph 5TA (to be found somewhere among Nigel's photographs) is a personal choice mixture of of 5T and 5TA parts to resemble a 5T I had fifty years ago. For which I make no apology.
Incidentally, the bike is going on a 60 mile run this evening, which will bring the mileage over the last week to around 160 miles. I seem to get more praise and respect for using it than I would expect from showing it!
Build the bike you want and use it! Don't get bogged down with ££££'s
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And so back to andyw's original comment - maybe these high end bike prices really are pushing up the value of the more popular bikes. Even bitsa unit Triumphs of suspect heritage.
There's only one solution of course - keep ridin' em!!!!
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its good here others getting some miles under there belt on these old machines, mine is used every week local bike night thursdays mixing with the modern bikes i also go on there planned rideouts every month,also doing 160 mile round trip sunday two stroke and classic bike meet i dont tend to do the shows as i enjoy the riding,its great to see the smiles on peoples faces when they see theses old bikes on the road, thats what its all about for me :)
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I think many of you missed my point; that being that if the world were black and white and price reflected value in terms of reliability, speed, comfort and economy, then old British bikes would be worth and cost nothing because they have long been superceded by modern machinery. But, for whatever reasons you care to name, the market defies this logic and the scarcity and desirability of the grumbling old bangers will continue to inflate the prices.
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Yeah, it's all about perceived value - It's like if you had twelve thousand pounds to spend on a motorbike would you buy a DBD34 Goldie or a 996(?) Ducati? They're both very pretty, somewhat temperamental and uncomfortable and neither can really be used as everyday transport.
Ignoring the the fact that the Goldie will hold its value it would be a tough decision for me if I had to choose between the two.
:-?
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I don't think many repliers missed the point. I think most, like myself were trying to offer a better way of looking at it.
Rightly or wrongly many old things - often worth little in terms of raw materials - get latched onto by those who think they are an investment for the future. How much would you pay for a picture of a bowl full of marigolds which cost almost nothing to produce? The tragedy is that the artist who produced it died almost a pauper while others make vast profits from selling the painting when he is long dead. A lot of these expensive classic and vintage bikes will likely rarely see the light of day, being kept for investment and (hopefully as far as the buyers are concerned) a profit. I imagine a lot of those high price buyers have never ridden a motorbike.
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I don't think many repliers missed the point. I think most, like myself were trying to offer a better way of looking at it.
I agree, but it is frustrating when you'd love a classic brit bike but simply can't afford an 'original' - hopefully the ebay bike Blue mentioned at the start of this thread ('bitsa' Bonnie for 'matching numbers' price) isn't the start of a trend.
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very well put twolitre,you go back 30 years many of the old bikes were worthless in money terms but were of value to those with an interest in restoring them.
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you ve only got to look at prices some people are asking on here they think of a number and then add a 0 on end most of them would be asking too much if they knocked the first digit off
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All the time bikes fetch those prices, then what you stated can't be true; they ARE worth only what they'll fetch on the open market, and that's true of nearly everything.
A late model TR6 made £1200 on Ebay last week or so, and that hardly prices any potential classic owner out of the market. As me old granny used to say, "you have to cut your cloth according to your means" and it still holds true. 8-)