classic motorcycle forum

Yes indeed - one mention in 1933 with no illustration and no specs. Worth pointing out that your "1933 DT" post has an illustration from the 1931 catalogue.

What year is your Floyd Clymer/Comerford JAP article? I see Comerford were originally called Comerford-Wallis https://cybermotorcycle.com/archives/speedwaybikes/comerford.htm so presumably the early Comerford bikes were made by Wallis, or from the Wallis design, and later Martin?

Leon

The "dirt track" bike was a very formulaic thing: the Webb DT fork in a frame of very well prescribed geometry with a single-speed countershaft, either with or without a clutch, depending on racing regulations at the time. All this stuff was designed by Australian Alan Bruce in 1928. His racing bike was taken to England in 1929 by Melbourne Rudge Agent Tommy Rogers and presented to the Rudge factory, who used Bruce's fork, geometry and countershaft for the all-conquering 1930 DT Rudge. The fork was put into production by Webb and sold on all speedway bikes up until the 1960s, and the countershaft and geometry could be copied by anyone, so a 1931 DT JAP was just a JAP engine in someone's DT frame. Martin were big manufacturers, and if I recall correctly these were sold by Commerford's - thus the reference to Floyd Clymer importing Commerford-JAP speedway bikes. The Crocker speedway bikes either used these frames, or copies of them, so while not "Rudge" they were more-or-less 1930 Rudge pattern, as were all speedway bikes. But I don't think short-track speedway was ever really big in the US, at least not as big as it was in the UK and Australia.

I'm not sure what to make of some of the Crockers that come on the market these days...

Leon

Thanks for the 12C info - I need an annotated Villiers wall chart!

Although the Sports Motor Cycle Depot was in action for about 27 months (late 1923 to early 1926), I reckon there was probably only one shipment of "Sports" motorcycles, around August 1924. They could have been someone's 1923 leftovers. Is the engine recognisably VIIC? The cycle parts were pure Sun.

Leon

Just had a nice email from the auction house - they have amended the listing. https://www.iconicauctioneers.com/1914-excelsior-junior-rec12712-1-nec-1123

Leon

In 1915 Turner Bros were headquartered in Melbourne (at 17 Elizabeth St), but were also at "Sydney, Adelaide, Brisbane, and Perth". In Adelaide they were selling their Turner JAP as well as British Ariel. (I have to say "British Ariel" int his context because we also had Australian Ariels!) But they packed up shop in Adelaide in 1917 and (I think) never came back.

I don't see adverts for Turner's Simplex motorcycle in Adelaide. I have "about 16" for the number of Simplexes - is that still about right?

In the late 1930s E.T. Fisher & Co were selling Levis in both Melbourne and Adelaide.

Cheers

Leon

Oh dear, unfortunately I don't have a copy of "Excelsior the Lost Pioneer". Here's my version:

From what I can see, pre-1920 there was a bit of two-stroke action at Excelsior, starting with an announcement in October 1914 when the firm "practically decided to make a further edition to their range of models, in the shape of a 2 1/2 h.p. two-stroke mount." Pretty sure that all models before this were four-strokes: their own big singles (not sure if Condor made these, or if Excelsior sold them to others as Condor) or JAP twins. The 1915 two-stroke was a 2 3/4 h.p. Peco-engined thing, Albion 2-speed with all chain drive and a flat tank. There was also a ladies model, with the tank cut down for a step-through bit to the rear, with belt drive. The 2 3/4 (350 cc) was sold through 1915 and 1916, when it was joined by a 2 1/4 Peco option - belt drive, either direct of with 2 speed albion - during 1916, see below. No real sales to the public by 1917, so the numbers were likely very small.

In March 1919 the first post war Excelsior was announced, Villiers-powered with Albion 2-speed and belt drive. End of 1919 the 1920 lightweight models were announced with sloping tanks, as posted high up.

I wonder does Mr Liversidge agree?

ABout gearboxes - mostly Albion from what I can see, but some 1920 models (eg the 2 3/4 JAP) were shown with the 2-speed + clutch Burman so it was definitely used. I like the bike in the auction... I suspect it's pretty original.

Cheers

Leon

We've talked quite a lot about vintage Excelsiors here, so when I saw a "1914 Excelsior Junior" for sale on ebay UK (actually just spruiking its sale at an upcoming Iconic auction) I was interested. The bike has a 269 Villiers engine and a Burman 2-speed box with ks. Very pretty indeed. "Pioneer Certificate eligible (but not included)" they say.

The only problem is it's not 1914.

When the same bike was sold in 2014 by Bonhams it was a "c1920 Excelsior" and "Offered with V5C (incorrectly registered 1914) for its Warwickshire number."

When it was sold again by H&H in 2017 it had magically become "1914 Excelsior Junior", with "PLEASE NOTE: This motorcycle dates from 1914 and not as previously stated."

Sell it again in 2023 and it's a "1914 Excelsior Junior" and "Pioneer Certificate eligible (but not included)".

For the record, in March 1919 Excelsior's first post war model was an Excelsior Villiers, with a "flat" tank, and the Motor Cycle stated, "This is the first time an Excelsior has been marketed with a Villiers engine." At the end of 1919 Excelsior announced that their lightweights for 1920 would have sloping tanks. And a 269cc Villiers with a "B" prefix would be a Mk III, built in 1920-21?

Why is memory so short? Where has the expertise gone?  Who was the genius who ignored many clues to redate the bike at 1914? Nice bike, though.

Leon

Bonhams Autumn Stafford Sale, 19 Oct 2014: "c1920 Excelsior" "Offered with V5C (incorrectly registered 1914) for its Warwickshire number."
https://www.bonhams.com/auction/21898/lot/279/property-of-a-deceased-estatec1920-excelsior-269cc-frame-no-tba-engine-no-a4634/

H&H National Motor Museum Sale, 2 June 2017: "1914 Excelsior Junior" "PLEASE NOTE: This motorcycle dates from 1914 and not as previously stated."
https://www.handh.co.uk/auction/lot/lot-136---1914-excelsior-junior/?lot=15636&so=0&st=&sto=0&au=389&ef=&et=&ic=False&sd=1&pp=48&pn=3&g=1

Iconic Auctioneers NEC Classic Motor Show Sale 12 Nov 2023: "1914 Excelsior Junior" "Pioneer Certificate eligible (but not included)"
https://www.iconicauctioneers.com/1914-excelsior-junior-rec12712-1-nec-1123?pn=1&el=21134&pp=50