55' 350 Goldie wheel spokes question.

[Kennij]

Hi All, just joined the forum a couple of weeks ago.
I'm usually just a reader. To the matter in hand, I have had this Goldie for a fair number of years, in boxes.
Had the frame blasted and I then painted it. Then we moved house, had to build a garage, etc, renovate house, so it stayed in the boxes. Anyway, have now started on it.
I cut out a couple of spokes since I need to rebuild the wheels, it has the later conical ? hub laced in, A65 ? It was a bit of a cafe racer, and I am going back to the 8" hub. It has a Dunlop WM 1 alloy f/rim. Now, when I took out the bit of spoke and nipple, it had a cup washer between the rim and the underside of the nipple head. Very narrow, more like the outer periphery of a cup. I have never seen this, or heard of it before. Something to do with spoke movement, or corrosion.  Any thoughts.
Regards.

[cardan]

Hi Kennij,

These washers were used a lot on bicycle wheels, to spread the load from the nipple. I've also seen them used on vinatge steel and alloy motorcycle rims  for the same purpose, so if you have older alloy rims it might be a good idea to use something similar. However on a dimpled rim, properly drilled so that each spoke hole points towards the appropriate hole on the rim, nipple washers should not be necessary.

A couple of warnings. Nipples come in 0.025" steps in diameter, so make sure your new nipples are a good fit to the holes in your rim. Tighten the spokes carefully and uniformly and by hand. It's surprisingly easy to damage a rim or hub with over-excited used of an electric screwdriver!

Cheers

Leon

[Kennij]

Thanks, Cardan.
I surmised that it was for loadspreading, although given the width of them, I don't see it very being effective. The rim is dimpled. I have ordered spokes and nipples from Central Wheel Components here the UK. Told them what I have and left it to them. Have'nt done a wheel in donkeys. Three to do, this bike and an Arrow front.

Ken.

[cardan]

Practice makes perfect! Enjoy. Don't forget to oil the nipples - the thread and the outside - for smooth tensioning, or use anti-seize if you're going stainless.

Cheers

Leon

[Kennij]

Stainless, brushed, it is.
Question is, do I need them. I would also have to make them. I think not. I think there would be better load-spreading, full nipple base to rim, than having a narrow band with less area intersposed between. And without cadmium, or stainless, there would be corrosion.
Regards,

Ken

[iansoady]

As said, if the dimples and nipples are the correct profile, it would be better to leave the washers out

[Kennij]

Update.
Had a closer look at these bits today. The nipples to take the dished washers are .065 ish smaller in dia. than the standard nipple you would normally use. Same gauge of spoke. Standard, as I would call them, are .302  9/32"and the ones from this rim are .250. The head is also a smaller dia. 0400" to .439" and flat topped. Though with the washers fitted they are actually wider. .490. So I would surmise that the smaller dia. nipple in the 9/32"hole in the rim gives more misalignment leeway, if it is needed. They can waggle around a bit to change angle to be spot-on, but with the washer, there is the same, or more,seat area.
Anyway, enough. I'll wait for the new spokes/nipples coming and take it from there.
Thanks for the contributions.

Regards,
Ken

[cardan]

Hi Ken,

There is a well-known expression that describes a 0.250" nipple in a 0.300" hole, but let's just call it wrong. Sounds like the washers under the nipples were there to stop the nipples falling through the rim!!

I enjoy building wheels, and I have a bit of an eye for them. A properly-built spoked wheel is a lovely thing, but badly-built wheels are everywhere. Two of the common problems are wrong nipple size and mismatched rims/hub combinations. A variation of the latter problem is when the rim has been laced to the wrong sides of an asymmetric  hub.

Hopefully your new nipples will be the correct size for the holes in the rim. Before you start building the wheel, use a spoke with a nipple attached to look at how the dimpling and drilling on your rim suits your hub: push the nipple hard into the hole with your thumb and the spoke should point quite closely to the hole it is to go in on the hub flange.

Cheers

Leon

[Rex]

True, wrong off-set and even slightly bent spokes are all too common, but if the OP gets the spokes and rims from one supplier (CWC?) then there'll be no problems or need for those washers.
Very therapeutic, is wheel building.

[iansoady]

..... except when you get the wrong dimple / hub relationship first time and have to start over again......

[Rex]

I guess we've all done that and had to start again.
Didn't put us off though, did  it?
"Character-forming"  is the expression.

[iansoady]

In that case my character must be well formed.

[Kennij]

Hi Leon and all.
Thanks for all the comments.
I think we will just accept the situation and move on.
 BUT, these dished washers, self- alignment devices, load spreaders, are made for the job.
As Rex says, CWC should provide the goods, and as Iansoady commented, yes, I seem to remember falling into that one a time ago.

Regards to all.
Next up, my petrol tank.
Ken.