Australian Acme...how old am I?

[Greencan]

Evening All...

Although I have already sent off an email to the Chaps in library, it's since occurred to me that maybe people in Oz also read this forum...so with that in mind I would be grateful if anyone who see's this might help me date this engine and thus help me date the wee motorcycle it's in.


Regards, Greencan

[JFerg]

A picture would be really helpful.....

[Greencan]

I'm sorry but l thought l had posted the photo correctly.
I can see it without logging on via my phone

Anyway, if it helps l think the engine is either an 8-D or 9-D Villiers, engine No: 351/13920

Cheers

[33d6]

The engine number prefix 351 identifies the engine as a postwar 9D made between 1946 and end of production in 1949. Pre war and wartime 9D engines used the AA - AAA prefix depending on specification but Villiers changed to a different identification system for postwar engines.
Unfortunately as with much Villiers production it is very difficult to pin down a precise year of manufacture but certainly your engine is postwar, not prewar.
Cheers,

[Greencan]

Evenin' All...

Ta for that 33d6...Is this information solely dependent on the numbers stamped on the gearbox end plate?

An amount the various bits-n-bobs that accompanied this bike including another engine which is a largely complete (but disassembled), this engine does have a completely different magneto / ignition system and only has 3 pole in the flywheel...the manifolds are not chromed like on the engine in the pic...and yep ya guessed it the bit that's missing is the gearbox end plate...which lead me to speculate the VIII-D theory. (Yes the engine in the picture has the 6 pole flywheel...I have since removed the cover plate for a look see)...thinking that the gearbox plate had been replaced...but it has not...the engine in the picture if it had been dismantled it was before 1960 (know Hx to then).

Sorry if this getting a bit drawn out but I was given this bike as being pre-war (I think you have already correctly surmised this).

The Frame number leans towards this (only has 4 characters...the other frames that came with it all have 5 and the two example of the (post-war) Bennett &Wood head stem logos can still be seen)...but until I can obtain information to corroborate this (proving a tad difficult)...I simple won't know...maybe never know...or will I?

Maybe I can still try dating the Olympic Patrol tyres ...which still hold 20PSI

So open for any Ideas from 'bike-sleuths' with knowledge of Aussie 30's-40's Acmes, welcomed.

Cheers, And ta again

[33d6]

Yes, the information is dependent on the numbers shown on the gearbox end plate because those are Villiers own engine numbers.
As for your other engine being different there is no surprise about that. Villiers would make multiple variants of the one engine for all sorts of reasons lost in history. For example a friends 9D powered Excelsior has a smaller inlet manifold and a Midget carburettor fitted. He gets rather fed up when he can't even keep up with other 9D powered bikes. As another example, I have a 1E engine having an extended plug boss so it requires a long reach 18mm plug. All other 1E's I have seen only use a regular 18mm plug. Who knows why Villiers did all these things. There may have been a good reason at the time but its long been lost to our generation.
Finally, to stir the pot a bit, have you considered that the person stamping the frame numbers could have missed a number on your frame? Forgotten the first digit? I say this tongue in cheek of course.
Cheers,

[Greencan]

Finally, to stir the pot a bit, have you considered that the person stamping the frame numbers could have missed a number on your frame? Forgotten the first digit? I say this tongue in cheek of course.

Well put that Man ..I'll just have to stamp an extra numeral on it...if that's never been done before, eh

One day all will be revealed...in the mean time I will enjoy this wee bike that's been locked up in a central Victorian shed since about 1961

Cheers again, Dick

PS look closely and you can see those 4 digits, just under the seat...that is if I correctly hyper linked it from photobucket

[33d6]

I know it's been sometime since the forum discussed this bike but I recently found a little more Acme dating info and thought I'd post it. In fact this info was under my nose all the time but you know how it is, you hunt for things and don't look at what's staring you in the face.
Anyway, I have a big book, ex Victorian State Police, and this book was issued to country police stations to help identify all sorts of vehicles including motorcycles. The section on Acme very clearly states that the engines in all postwar Acme had 351/ engine number prefix (we already knew that) and (this is the clincher) that all postwar frame numbers had a 'C' prefix. So, although we could spot slight differences between pre and postwar machines these were nothing that a later owner couldn't have done  on a lazy Saturday afternoon anyway but the 'C' frame number prefix is in a different catyegory.
I'm sure the motorcycle world is relieved to know how to positively identify an obscure Australian lightweight but from such little acorns great oak trees have grown, etc, etc. (You can see I need a beer after all this can't you.)
Cheers,

[cardan]

Interesting. This Acme http://www.classicmotorcycleforum.com/index.php?topic=3729.0 has the 351/ prefix on the engine number, but the frame number starts with "B". Does the "B" imply prewar? War years?
Never easy!

Leon

[33d6]

Frustrating isn't it. With the 351/ prefix the engine can only be postwar but was this bike assembled in the immediate postwar era from remaining prewar components hence the 'B' frame prefix or is it a re-engined prewar bike? Does the 'B' prefix mean something entirely different?  Who knows.  Until very recently very few people would recondition a prewar Villiers engine. It was far cheaper to replace it with another used one and sometimes you could even be given the replacement.
Civilian Villiers engine production stopped in 1940. Who knows what cycle parts Bennett & Wood had in stock at that time. There are so many possible scenarios.
Cheers,

[esometisse]

There are so many possible scenarios.

.....and it doesn't really matter, or does it?
This is one fine looking motorcycle and fairly rare too so I wouldn't lose too much sleep over the fact that its history of origin will probably never be fully reveiled.

Cheers
Andy

[rogerwilko]

Was there really anything Aussie about this bike, or was it just a bunch of imported parts with am Aussie tank transfer like all the local bicycles?

[R]

Was there really anything Aussie about this bike, or was it just a bunch of imported parts with am Aussie tank transfer like all the local bicycles?

The histories of ACME and Bennett and Wood all refer to them building these in Sydney.  And Bennett and Wood were building bicycles for the local market, so frame building etc was a skill not unknown to them. Tanks and mudguards though may be a different matter. ?   Earlier on in this thread, no comparable English bike could be found that matched it - although there was mention of some earlier ? B&W tie-up with Norman (was it ?).

The motorcycle industry in Melbourne in prewar WW1 times up to the depression era  had them building complete motorcycles, including engines and copy gearboxes in some cases, so motorcycle building in Oz is a not unknown industry. 

The trouble the local industry had was keeping up with developments from overseas ?  Motorcycles were constantly evolving and improving designs - and stagnating designs were the death of many a small maker.  If they bought in enough parts to keep the unit costs down, they didn't sell enough quickly enough to not get caught with excess inventory of now obsolete stock ... ?

[33d6]

What you should look at is other parts of Australian history.  Duties, tariffs, excise, purchase tax, freight costs, etc. Back then importing individual parts attracted far less taxation than did importing complete machines plus of course a kit of parts took up far less room in a ship than a complete machine so freight was cheaper. At that time it made good business sense to import kits.
Then of course assembling the kits created work and so it goes on.
The Acme may just be a bunch of imported parts with an Aussie tank transfer as RW says but its a visible example of several facets of our history. A lot of the Acmes importance lies in the reasons why it exists.
History lesson over, my main whinge is about other Australian bikes made to meet the same criteria. Years ago I stuck my nose in the air when offered a Simplex and later on a Utility. When did you last see examples of either. I can gloomily say I have a 100% record of knocking back every golden opportunity offered me.
Cheers,