Help please to identify very old motorcycle from photo

[AdrianfromOz]

Hi,
A friend has been researching old family history, and is looking to identify the make and model
of motorcycle shown in the attached photo.

The photo was found in the NLA (National library of Australia archives)
The inscription underneath reads:

CM Dyer on his motorcycle, about 1910 (AOT, PH30/1/8183)

Apparently CM had quite a military history (in the U.S ?) and was prominent in motorcycling in Tasmania, Australia.

Any  help would be extremely appreciated.

[cardan]

Hi Adrian,

The engine is a Minerva twin and the frame set is Chater Lea (from the UK) so we are looking at a locally-made machine of about 1908, no doubt assembled by one of the many manufacturers (mostly small) in Tasmania. I'm pretty sure I've seen this photo before, and it's likely that the name of the machine is known - I'll have a look when I get the time.

Cheers

Leon

[AdrianfromOz]

 Hi Leon,

Fantastic! Thanks very much. I will pass on the info.
(after I seek out some Minerva pics online... my friend is not a bike man as such).

Cheers, Adrian 

[wetdog]

try here also http://earlymotor.com/

[AdrianfromOz]

Thanks! One of the links led me to:

 http://users.senet.com.au/~mitchell/lewis/motorcycles/html/models.htm

There is a model half way down the page which looks very similar.
Maybe except for the forks and what can be seen of the frame. 

[cardan]

Guilty as charged - all that guff is mine.

Although the bike is similar to a Lewis-Minerva twin (built in Adelaide in South Australia), the difference in the fork is important. Both the Lewis and the bike in the photo use the same rigid part of the fork. The entire rigid fork, including the bracing bridge at the front, is Chater Lea (UK). Lewis used the Simplex front spring attachment, which used a leaf spring and two vertical sliders, whereas the bike in the photo uses the Chater Lea rocking links at the bottom of the fork, controlled by little coil springs behind the fork.

Back to the photo. The same photo appears in Rob Saward's book "A to Z of Australian-made Motor Cycles", where it is captioned "R B Sutton with his 4 1/2 h.p. Sovereign Minerva during the 1908 TAC Reliability Trial from Launceston to Hobart."

The Sovereign was assembled by Wearne and Geard, of Launceston, Tasmania.

Sutton? Or C M Dyer? I'll contact Rob and we'll try to get to the bottom of it.

Leon

[R]

That picture does appear, uncredited, in pics of entrants in the TAC Reliability Trial Launceston to Hobart  November 1907.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NzTk0lcQ-Kk/SKbZLO7ibsI/AAAAAAAAIrE/JYAWrWsS7jo/s587/f%25207%252018.jpg

Mr CM Dyer on his Sovereign Minerva was recorded as having retired in that event.
He was recorded as Entrant No 30 in that event.
Examiner (Launceston, Tas.) Tuesday 12 November 1907 P5

And gets numerous mentions in the Launceston Examiner in 1907 and 1908.
Including his picture in the Nov 1907 "Courier Annual" - which doesn't appear to be online ?

Mr C. Martin was No 27 in that event, enterered on a Minerva 4.5 hp.  (Mr Dyer was 3.5 hp)

Amazing what you can google these days...
hth.

[AdrianfromOz]

Thank you guys! My friend is very appreciative indeed. 

[cardan]

Great stuff. We'll have to keep an eye out for more Dyer and Sutton photos to make sure understand exactly who was riding what in which event! Tasmanians were keen on motor sport and so there were numerous trials. I wonder in what year the photo was actually taken. No doubt we can find out.

One of the traps is that locally-assembled Australian bikes were often referred to by the name of their motor; thus a 4.5 h.p. Minerva could be a locally-built bike (like the Minerva-Chater Lea "Sovereign" in the photo) or it could be a "real" Minerva, 100% Belgian made and imported to Australia. Differences? Yep, but you have to get into the fine detail of frame lugs, fork design etc.

Isn't it great to be able to access old photos and newspapers on the internet?

Leon

[R]

The Veteran Car Club of Australia (Tassie) has other pics of that 1907 Trial.
http://www.vccatas.org.au/photos.html
With more pics of entrant No 30. Looks like it was Nov 1907.
Assuming they attributed the pics correctly...
The Illustrated "Courier Annual" for Nov 1907 lists it has a pic of CM Dyer on a Sovereign Minerva.
Along with pics of other bikes, and Tasmania in general. Doesn't seem to be online though ?

Mr Dyer is listed as Triumph 3.5 in events a couple of years later, and Mr Sutton on a Sovereign Minerva 3.5.

Amazing these things can be googled these days, a few years back that would have required a trip to that library,
and a long search through dusty old bound papers.

[AdrianfromOz]

Thanks!

Guys,
My friend David emailed me the following: (CM is no longer just CM lol).
Cecil Munroe Dyer. He was David's great grandfather.

The Havelock bike picture is attached, together with one of
G King, C Marting and C M Dyer outside Cooleys Hotel.
These were found in the Tas govt archives.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Adrian,

This is all great, full name  Cecil Munroe Dyer He became the inventions officer for the Army just before  WW2 was a car and truck tester and set up car agencies across Victoria.

In my searching found this one below  a shot of the Havelock bike it is also very similar and is a Tassy bike also.

 Thanks Adrian,
 David

[AdrianfromOz]

The Tas govt archives link. A few motorcycle pics in amongst them.

http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/default.aspx?detail=1&type=S&id=PH30