Author Topic: Norton 16H. Wrong gear lever?  (Read 2160 times)

Offline iansoady

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Re: Norton 16H. Wrong gear lever?
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2018, 10:25:35 AM »
Yes, I only discovered that fairly recently. Although as you say Burman merely manufactured them and had no input into the design.

What is also maybe not well known is that the "AMC" box fitted to later Nortons and (oddly) AMC bikes has essentially the same internals as the lay-down and even the doll's head boxes - indeed, many parts from the earlier models still fit the latest ones.

Of course a gearbox designed for a 20-something bhp single was struggling with 50 or so from the 828 Commando especially when fitted with the larger gearbox sprocket.

I've always thought the Norton boxes of whatever era (except maybe the earlier ones with the external linkages) had the sweetest action of all the common makes.
Ian
1952 Norton ES2
1982 Moto Guzzi V50

Offline Tidyrob69

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Re: Norton 16H. Wrong gear lever?
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2018, 10:18:16 PM »
Thankyou R.
I'll keep a look out for a dolls head box.
That's interesting iansoady, I guess it kept the cost down not having to tool up to make new design internals.

Offline R

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Re: Norton 16H. Wrong gear lever?
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2018, 04:35:24 AM »
Be a little cautious about expecting/attempting to swap internals between early and late boxes ?

The tooth form changed somewhere along the line, so it was always recommended to change gears in pairs - and also not mix old with new. And the bushes went from solid bronze ones to sintered bronze, so the installation and running clearances are 2 separate instructions in the manuals.

There may not be a lot of difference, but if there is.....

Offline iansoady

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Re: Norton 16H. Wrong gear lever?
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2018, 03:45:30 PM »
Yes, caution is always worth while. I must admit I was thinking more of things like the camplate and plunger, bearings and selection mechanism rather than gears themselves. And of course mainshafts differed by application.
Ian
1952 Norton ES2
1982 Moto Guzzi V50

Offline 33d6

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Re: Norton 16H. Wrong gear lever?
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2018, 11:10:48 PM »
The Burman connection makes sense when you look at it. As with many other makes Norton were happily using Sturmey Archer gearboxes in the early 30's when Raleigh (owner of Sturmey Archer ) decided to get out of motorcycles all together and concentrate on their bicycles. One of the directors of Norton, Gilbert Smith was a director of other firms as well. I believe he was a director at Raleigh as well. He not only got the four speed Sturmey Archer box for Norton he also had the connections to get Burman to make it. Motorcycle gearboxes were but a small part of Burmans business their bread and butter business was steering box stuff for the car world.

Making gearboxes and gearcutting was a fairly small world back then and I suspect quite a few firms took in each others washing at various times.

Personally, I can never find out much about Albion Engineering although they made gearboxes for everything ranging from lathes, army tanks and ships to very small motorcycles. Somehow their history seems to have just disappeared.
Cheers,

Offline R

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Re: Norton 16H. Wrong gear lever?
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2018, 11:39:42 PM »
Graces Guide has 2 or 3 lines about Albion Eng
https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Albion_Engineering_Co
Name and address, a starting point ?

Would the motorcycling weaklies have ever covered them ?

We diverge...

Offline Tidyrob69

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Re: Norton 16H. Wrong gear lever?
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2018, 03:12:25 AM »
Thanks for the advice. Can i not fit a complete dolls head box (inc casings) in place of the SA?

Offline 33d6

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Re: Norton 16H. Wrong gear lever?
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2018, 06:21:08 AM »
Of course you can fit a dolls head Norton box. That is what a 1946 16H is meant to have. We have just been distracted by the earlier box which just predates Raleigh stopping production.
If you really want to get your head around the subject I would suggest you buy a copy of "Norton Motorcycles 1928 to 1955" First published by Temple press in 1959. Bruce Main-Smith & Co later got a licence to reproduce it in the 1980's so there are a fair few copies floating about. You will learn a lot including how to look after the engine and front forks.
I had a quick look on abebooks.com and found two copies for sale, both in the UK.
Cheers,

Offline Tidyrob69

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Re: Norton 16H. Wrong gear lever?
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2018, 05:21:14 AM »
Ah ok thanks 33d6, the talk of changing internals for matched parts confused me a bit. Yes i'll look for a dolls head box as it sounds more user friendly from a maintenance and riding point of view.
I'll get a copy of the book, thanks for the advice.

Offline john.k

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Re: Norton 16H. Wrong gear lever?
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2018, 02:53:39 AM »
The postwar Norton SV s have certainly come in from the cold......Go back to the early 70s,and you could not give one away......literally...and I tried....As a teen ,I remember the local council had a fleet of big4s with the upright"tombstone" boxes.Horrible things ,with long gear pedals,and outside linkages...The "rat gang " had them ,sidecars filled with foxterriers waiting for the chase.And the mosquito spraying gangs also had them......Which brings us to the early SA gearbox......at that time,you could buy a new ex WD Norton gearbox for 2 quid.....So to fit a SA would be unusual,but maybe the owner didnt want to spend 2 quid,maybe he didnt have it......Back to the present and 2 has turned into 700,which is what I see asked for WD boxes now......but the SA box was also fitted to B/S bikes,so what is it worth now.......10% of what a B/S is worth.....Could be sitting on a goldmine.......Incidentally,the Norton boxes were made almost entirely by sub contractors during WW2,as Burmans were pressed making 1/4 million CPs,and also making the precision gearing for A/A sights,not to mention steering gears.

Offline R

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Re: Norton 16H. Wrong gear lever?
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2018, 09:55:30 PM »
Would you happen to know who those sub-contractors might have been.
Or where this might have been mentioned ?

Offline mini-me

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Re: Norton 16H. Wrong gear lever?
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2018, 10:06:13 PM »
I'd have thought that early box would have a value in excess of a WD16H one?

Offline john.k

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Re: Norton 16H. Wrong gear lever?
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2018, 01:00:57 AM »
Far in excess,if its the same as a Brough gearbox........add as many 0s as necessary.....I remember havin a S/A box for sale at a swap meet,a guy offered me some paltry sum.....he also had a SS100 on display there.......I said .....Your broungh is worth 30,000....that means this box is worth about 10% of that....3000.....take it or leave it.....The dearer the bike,the more miserable the owner.

Offline mini-me

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Re: Norton 16H. Wrong gear lever?
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2018, 08:35:54 PM »
Far in excess,if its the same as a Brough gearbox........add as many 0s as necessary.....I remember havin a S/A box for sale at a swap meet,a guy offered me some paltry sum.....he also had a SS100 on display there.......I said .....Your broungh is worth 30,000....that means this box is worth about 10% of that....3000.....take it or leave it.....The dearer the bike,the more miserable the owner.

Don't get me started on such a subject, I have several bottles worth of tales of that ilk; Certain Makes are notorious for their tight wad owners; Vincents at the top, Velocettes 2nd.
At jumbles Vincent spares need to be nailed down or they get nicked.

I did get my revenge on Vincent spares after I quit the trade, very sweet, too long for here and on Velocettes by exporting every OHC part I could lay my hands on to France where a guy took all I could send, no arguments.

Brough owners in the main deserve all they get, I was once conned out of 4 heavyweight SA boxes but count it as a lesson learned, I must have had around 6/7 Broughs through my hands when in the trade, a pain to sell in the 1970s and as for getting paid for work done........ one guy I asked to meet me at the Chelsea bridge tea stall, because if he didn't pay my bill I was going to heave his SS100 into the Thames, he paid.