Author Topic: Unusual UK registration numbers: P2-AB and AE-P2  (Read 3169 times)

Offline cardan

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Unusual UK registration numbers: P2-AB and AE-P2
« on: September 21, 2019, 03:35:16 AM »

Does anyone know the origin of these unusual registration plates? Trade plates of some kind? The first bike is a racing Douglas, just pre WW1, and the second a rather nice ABC from a couple of years later.

Thanks

Leon

Offline mini-me

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Re: Unusual UK registration numbers: P2-AB and AE-P2
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2019, 05:38:33 PM »
possibly french reg?

no tenglish i'm sure

Offline Rex

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Re: Unusual UK registration numbers: P2-AB and AE-P2
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2019, 08:03:57 PM »
I agree. Not a format that was ever used in GB. Even back in the veteran period it would have been the A1 or AB 10 type format.

Offline john.k

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Re: Unusual UK registration numbers: P2-AB and AE-P2
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2019, 07:01:53 AM »
The rider is said to be A Alexander ,as IIRC mentioned in the Douglas book........I have always been amazed the ohv motor even ran,considering the lack of cooling fins on the exhaust ,especially the rear cylinder.....must have run on alcohol,much alcohol.......I also seem to remember the plates being the source of much pontification in years gone by,without any conclusion,ever since the book came out.

Offline cardan

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Re: Unusual UK registration numbers: P2-AB and AE-P2
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2019, 07:44:54 AM »

Thanks so far.

It's the Douglas I'm interested in: in Jeff Clew's book "The Best Twin" he labels it as "The very first ohv-engined model, as ridden by Alfie Alexander at (the beach races at) Weston-super-Mare (in 1913)". It might be Alexander, but this is one of the bikes for the 1914 TT, which were first seen at Brooklands at the end of Feb 1914. Their public debut was at the 1914 TT in June, only a couple of months from war. There were (at least) three earlier ohv-engined Douglases, the first of which had a engine built by Granville Bradshaw at his Brooklands workshop in late 1912.

So there is a link between the two bikes, and between Douglas and ABC at the time.

This morning I found another ABC (a 250cc Firefly prototype) with a similar plate: P3-AB. I'm 99% certain we're in the UK, and in the period 1914 - 1916. Possibly at Brooklands where ABC were based.

Any idea of what a trade plate of the period looks like? Although there are only three examples here, could there be a code for the manufacturer (AB for ABC, AE for Douglas) and the "plates" labelled P1, P2, P3...?

Cheers

Leon

Offline cardan

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Re: Unusual UK registration numbers: P2-AB and AE-P2
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2019, 08:24:56 AM »
Here's another: AB-R6 on a BSA. So clearly my "AB is for ABC" theory is wrong!

The photo comes from A. B. Dumas' book Victorian and Edwardian Cycling and Motoring from Old Photographs (bought in the bargain bin at Myer Melbourne, Friday night shopping, c1978, I recall!) and he thinks it's an early trade plate.

If so, what is the code?

Leon
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 08:26:28 AM by cardan »

Offline mini-me

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Re: Unusual UK registration numbers: P2-AB and AE-P2
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2019, 11:23:48 AM »
I doubt very much those are UK or Trade plates.

Trade plates had a red back ground, the ones I used also had a triangular license holder. Further more they were never painted on. Nor were they need on the front of a bike,the whole idea was that they were a temporary useage, not permanent.
In the era of those photos most Uk reg were still on two letter and  3 or four numbers format.

The hyphen was often used between letter and number, but  never to seperate letters, and indeed is illegal today and back then; number plate lay out has always been strictly set out in law, and despite todays fad for personalised reg plates, if set out in an unorthodox way are an MOT fail.

The was no "code" the digits relate always to the issuing authority, not the make of the bike.

I still think you are barking up the wrong tree, they re most likey french, both Douglas and ABC had strong french connections in the early vintage era.

Lastly I have for years had a strong distrust of information spread in some books, especially since one of mine own bikes appeared in a marque history accompanied by the most incredible mis-information about it. It has never been corrected.



[if this doesn't satisfy you you could always write to DVLA or the national motor museum]

also http://www.cvpg.co.uk/REG.pdf

Otehr net sources of that pic  indicate its 1916/17 which I find odd considering it was the middle of WW1.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 02:56:32 PM by mini-me »

Offline cardan

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Re: Unusual UK registration numbers: P2-AB and AE-P2
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2019, 01:13:07 AM »
An extract from: http://www.metadyne.co.uk/pdf_files/CarReg.pdf

"Dealers marks burgeoned and it was not long before there were problems. Firstly they emerged in a wide variety of colours. Secondly some unforeseen usage arose. It appears that the plates consisted of the usual one or two letter mark from the issuing authority, followed  by  a  further  mark  (for  example  ‘XA’)  indicating  the  trader  or  dealership,  thence  a  serial  number  relating  to  the  dealer.  It  also  seems  that  manufacturers got  into  the  habit  of  obtaining  just  one  ‘dealers’  mark  and  using  it  for  all  their agents around the country, creating extensive problems for local police in tracing usage  of  vehicles  and  difficulty  in  pinning  down  blame  for  any  shortcoming  in  the  dealers record keeping. The 1904 Royal Commission on Motor Cars suggested that all plates should be red and that all dealerships should register locally."

Following this guide, the number AE-P2 on a Douglas (from Bristol) is "AE" (the two-letter code for the Bristol issuing authority) + "P" (referring to Douglas or a Douglas dealer) + "2" (the second plate belonging to Douglas or the dealer)?

It seems the Bristol Record Office, B Bond Warehouse, Smeaton Rd, Bristol. BS1 6XN (0117 922 4224)
has a Card index to 1963 (AE to reverse YAE). It might even include trade plates...

Cheers

Leon

Offline mini-me

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Re: Unusual UK registration numbers: P2-AB and AE-P2
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2019, 09:11:45 AM »
Interesting, all you have to do now is link it all up to someone or other.
Only flaw as I see it is that what is referred to here pre dates these photos by some years.

Offline Rex

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Re: Unusual UK registration numbers: P2-AB and AE-P2
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2019, 09:37:50 AM »
Not convinced by that. See here-

http://www.cvpg.co.uk/REG.pdf