Author Topic: Hot Start Problem  (Read 393 times)

Offline 33d6

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Re: Hot Start Problem
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2025, 04:39:37 AM »
Jon, you are discussing this problem with a group of Australians all of whom regard 25degreesC as merely balmy, not hot at all and who play with vintage and veteran machinery much older than yours. As a 1932 model pedantically your bike isn’t even vintage. You may have a hot start problem but warm weather and age of machinery are not the root cause of your woes. It lies elsewhere.
I have a practical guide to BSA from 1931 written by D W Munro of BSA and first published in 1948 by Pearson in front of me. In his chapter on servicing old models Mr Munro goes on at length about “The Importance of Correct Ignition Timing” for nigh on two pages, finishing off the second page with other possible causes being weak mixture, tight valve guides, burnt valves and insufficient exhaust tapped clearance.
It may be time to again look closely at all these matters.

Offline Rex

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Re: Hot Start Problem
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2025, 09:30:08 AM »
Yep, always best to go "back to first principles" and check everything, especially when you see some of the dumbarse instant solutions on the Net.

Offline 33d6

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Re: Hot Start Problem
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2025, 09:34:22 AM »
I’ve been plodding through my early BSA literature. It’s made interesting reading. I hadn’t known BSA gave their ignition timings using full retard for several years. They came in line with standard practice sometime in the mid-30’s. They did a full turn around ferociously emphasising all magneto ignition timings were on full advance. In 1936, the last year of Mr Billingtons particular BSA ignition timing was now listed as 7/16” at full advance.
It was a similar curious story with the tappet settings. They were steadily increased over the life of that particular engine. Mr Billington is correct in saying the settings were inlet .004” and exhaust .006” in 1932 but had listed them as .004 for both the year before in 1931 and increased the exhaust setting to .008 for 1933-36.
Lots of food for thought there isn’t there.

Online cardan

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Re: Hot Start Problem
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2025, 11:40:59 AM »
That is interesting.

In particular the 0.004/0.004" valve clearances in 1931 seem very optimistic, very precise. I must admit that I don't use a feeler gauge at all on my vintage bikes, but just give them a jiggle to make sure they're ok. I reckon 4 thou on an exhaust valve wouldn't pass my jiggle test!

As for setting ignition timing using engine at TDC and mag on full retard, I do it all the time - it's my standard method on the side of the road. Easy to find TDC, easy to spot the points starting to open (in the BSA case open 3 thou - a quarter of the way to 12 thou). Done. Works every time. But, depending what has been done to the mag over the years, it sometimes means too much advance is available to the engine with the lever at full advance, so maybe the bike runs best on no-quite-full advance. Over-advanced ignition is bad. Not a problem for an experienced rider, but bad in the hands of a novice. Best to set the timing at full advance if you're at home in the shed.

Seriously, I wish Billington all the best with his bike, but he seems to misunderstand the BSA instructions yet stands by his misunderstanding even when others try to explain. I have done my best.

Cheers,

Leon

Offline Billington

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Re: Hot Start Problem
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2025, 09:51:36 PM »
Thank you 33d3 and Rex, I have a copy of Munro’s “BSA a practical guide covering all models from 1931”, which I have read and applied it’s settings to my bike. Your point about tappet clearance is interesting; page 189 shows how the exhaust setting changed from 6 to 8 thousandths of an inch from 1932 to 1933 for essentially the same engine. It’s tempting to rationalise that this increase may have been to reduce engine temperature by creating a bigger passage for hot gases.

I would like to make a reference from page 82 of the same book. Below is an excerpt for those who do not own a copy of the book.

Ignition

No improvement can be expected from an alteration to the ignition timing. In fact the reverse is almost invariably the case, too much advance producing roughness, without any speed increase, while a retarded spark causes sluggishness and overheating, although the owner may be tempted to retard his ignition a trifle in order to take advantage of the slightly greater flexibility thus obtained. Yet it is a certain fact that many owners re-time their engines as a matter of course as soon as the dealer’s back is turned. This is proved by the number of machines which find their way back to factory repair departments, or to repairer’ premises, with ignition timing hopelessly out. And it is significant that the complaints for which such machines are returned is often attributable soley to the experiment on the owner’s part. 

I do not reference this passage for churlish point scoring reasons, merely to clarify my reasoning for not making changes that are not evidence based. It is with an orderly mind and a logical neatness that mechanics diagnose and resolve issues. Hence I will make a test table, which is my usual practice that records incremental  changes made, the rationale for making the change and the outcome. This has ensured satisfactory conclusions for technical problems for me in the past.

I will include the following tests and changes, individually, within my causes of overheating test table
1, Weak fuel mixture
2, Burnt valves
3, Carbon build up
4, Insufficient exhaust tappet clearance
6, Increase exhaust tappet clearance

Finally, yes, I will be using Magneto setting contained within the “BSA Motorcycle Instruction Book”, but rather than use the “All models 1930 to 1936” I will use the “1932 Models” edition. The reason for this is that it has a clear diagram showing a Lucas Magneto with the follower about half on the start of the cam.

This image shows where I set the points to 3 thousands of an inch, which I now believe could be about 40° to late. I was informed to use this point by someone with significant knowledge of Magnetos, but I think he expected me to use this when the piston was at 3/8 before TDC.

I will let you know how I get on.



Offline R

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Re: Hot Start Problem
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2025, 12:04:20 AM »
It is not entirely clear (to me) what method you are now going to use to set the ignition timing,
but I'd comment that if it is not going to verify that it is sparking at that 3/8" BTDC at full advance,
then we might be back to square one ?

And, the fuzzy logic of "hot gases" escapes me also. If BSA increased the tappet clearance, it is
very likely that they found the valve was growing with heat, until it lost any clearance.
At this point it may/would/could start losing compression - which may make them
a) difficult to restart
b) begin to burn a valve, since the hot gases would/could be continuously escaping.
And this would not be good.
Hopethishelps
Have fun !


Online cardan

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Re: Hot Start Problem
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2025, 05:37:52 AM »
Hi Billington,

In your photo the rubbing block is well past the opening ramp: when it is in this position the points gap should be about 0.012".

For most of the rotation of the magneto the points should be open about 12 thou; for the rest the points should be closed. Only when the rubbing block hits the ramps and begins opening the points will the gap pass (instantaneously) through 0.003". (And again when closing, but this plays no role in the spark.)

When BSA talks about the points being open 0.003", they mean that the rubbing block has hit the ramp and the points have opened about a quarter the way to fully open (0.012"). This defines an exact point in the rotation of the magneto.

You've asked for help, we've provided it with care an attention. Have you considered accepting it? Humour us. Try it out.

Cheers

Leon

Online cardan

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Re: Hot Start Problem
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2025, 05:42:20 AM »
Oh, and by all means use the BSA method of points 0.003" open with the magneto on full retard and the engine at TDC. But you have to first set the points gap to 12 thou (no doubt listed somewhere in your BSA literature?), then set the timing by moving the magneto gears, not adjusting the points gap.

Offline R

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Re: Hot Start Problem
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2025, 06:02:28 AM »
No wonder the factory was getting back lotsa bikes with faulty running !
Sounds diabolical.

Just how do you "set the timing by moving the magneto gears"  ??
Or is that the time honoured method of tapping the gearwheel onto the taper, and then locking it with the nut ...

Online cardan

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Re: Hot Start Problem
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2025, 07:57:11 AM »
Just how do you "set the timing by moving the magneto gears"  ??
Or is that the time honoured method of tapping the gearwheel onto the taper, and then locking it with the nut ...
Whatever... within half a tooth would be enormously better than it is now.