L'il Villiers

[33d6]

I think the high pipes with Excelsior was just a matter of making your 9D powered bike look a little different from the rest. So many makers took up the 9D they all tended to look the same so a maker had to do something to stand out. It had nothing to do with competition, Excelsior had the Manxman for that.
 Wolf also fitted high pipes but Wolf never had the same exposure as did Excelsior.
So far I can list Coventry Eagle, Montgomery, Wolf, Excelsior, Carlton, Chell and of course  Francis Barnett and James as making 9D powered bikes without listing the Continental users.

Nevertheless, a private entry 9D powered Excelsior did earn a bronze medal in the 1938 ISDT so they were willing beastie if you pushed.

[R]

It had nothing to do with competition,

It never actually occurred to me they might be used for competition.
If someone won a medal in the ISDT, then I'm in awe !!

[cardan]

However, the 1939 Excelsior brochure shows high level exhausts as std fittings on the 125cc Universal, 
so you'd expect the Waratah here to be the same ...

I have a pretty poor illustration of a 125cc (8D presumably) Waratah in December 1937 and it certainly has high level pipes like the GO Universal Excelsior.

I've emailed the auctioneer re engine/frame numbers for the Waratah.

Leon

[33d6]

The 8D/9D engine did much better in the ISDT than you think R. The Dutch make Eysink, were the other user besides Excelsior and the record is 1937, three Eysink entered winning two bronze and the other retiring with a frame breakage. 1938 saw one Eysink and the Excelsior entered, both winning bronze. 1939 was the ISDT run on the verge of WWII where the entire British contingent left before the event was over. The Excelsior owner "retired" on the second day but we don't know whether he actually retired or left when told as no one really reported on the activities of private entries. It was all about the official teams. Those representing the country, the Army teams, Club teams and the like, private entries rarely got mentioned much and rarely photographed. Usually they just turn up as background in the odd photo. No Eysink were entered for 1939. Finally Eysink had three 9D  powered entries in the first postwar ISDT and won a Gold and two Silvers.
Not a bad effort all up for a 125cc Villiers.

I look forward to any reply from the auctioneer. It'll make interesting reading.

[cardan]

From the auctioneers: " The engine number is AAA24024A was located running vertically down centre of the gearbox. Will add the photo later.
Frame number is not visible, will send a photo of the steering head casting."

What do you think 33d6? Are we very-late-pre-war, wartime, or very-early-post-war? I don't think I'd argue if someone said "1940", but I don't know the significance of the suffix "A" on the already "AAA" engine number.

The flat-back VEC headlamp (Acme progressed bullet shaped VEC headlamps on at least some 1940 models) and the fact that new Waratahs weren't landed until July 1946 (but which time we might expect post war numbers?)... yes just pre war maybe?

Re the frame number, I told them, "The frame number is usually on the left side of the steering head casting." Anywhere else it might be? A photo would be good.

Cheers

Leon

[cardan]

Forget the ISDT, here's the 125 Waratah on the home sporting trial front, prewar.

Leon

[33d6]

From what you have given me I think very early postwar. It all seems to point that way. As it happens my Excelsior equivalent is a 1940 model so more or less last gasp prewar and very handy for comparison.
Supposedly Villiers did their final 9D upgrade in 1939 but when in 1939? War was declared in September which is also around the time the whole motorcycle industry including Villiers started announcing next years ranges and anything new. I'm still ploughing through 'MotorCycling" at the State Library and haven't got to 1939 so haven't an exact date yet but will in due course. 1940 was going to be a big year for Villiers. Lots of changes and upgrades that came and went between the declaration of war in September and the halt of civilian production in April 1940. Hopefully the State Library will clarify a lot of questions.
My Excelsior has the AAA prefix only and the number, 18330 is in the expected prewar position. The frame number is 1073 with the correct prefix for a 1940 Model 0. It is on a flat boss on the left side of the steering head lug just above the down tube. The frame number is always on the special raised boss provided for it. Your auctioneer isn't trying too hard if he can't find it.
The first batch of postwar Excelsior to arrive in Victoria all have AAA****A engine numbering system in the vertical style. We know this from the AOMC engine number cards as they all contain the date of first registration which leads me to believe its the original fitment with the auction bike.
We also know from past investigation that a Waratah /Excelsior was not quite the same as the current model Excelsior . All Excelsior but not quite identical, usually with the odd part from previous years models. I think that is what has happened here, in an effort to start selling bikes again in the early days of peace Excelsior cleaned out their stores and made up a batch of Waratah from what they could find. As I mentioned before, that bike has a prewar frame and forks that were used on other model Excelsior. The frame number would reveal a lot. I think it's genuine and very early postwar. 

[cardan]

Brilliant - very interesting indeed.

I spent last night reading military vehicle forums about the ML James. Incredibly well documented due to the military contracts that governed their production and delivery.

Of interest to us is that MLs were delivered between 1943 and 1945, with frame numbers up to ML8500 - there were contracts to supply 10,000 but the last 1500 were not delivered to the military. ML numbers beyond 8500 ended up (mostly) on the postwar civilian market.

Now here's the interesting bit: All the ML engines (Villiers 9D) were all AAAxxxxA numbers, with xxxxx mostly between about 20000 and about 28000.

The experts there agree about the A suffix on the 9D engines: "Unfortunately records of Villiers 9D engine numbers do not appear to have been retained but it is thought that they were fitted to WD James ML's at random without any particular sequence. The suffix "A" after the engine number was a mark applied by Villiers to signify a post-1939 9D engine with the revised crankcase sealing method (the "gland" seal on the driving side), the "A" signifying "amended"."

They also suggest that, unlike the ML frame numbers, the Villiers engine numbers don't seem to appear in strict order. Nevertheless, the Waratah engine number AAA24024A is right in the middle of the 8000+ engines that went into MLs for the military, do it's likely well into wartime: 1942, 1943 or even 1944?

So, what date for the Waratah?

I've been back and searched wartime newspapers. New Waratah adverts petered out towards the end of 1941 (ignoring Ted Bailey's unchanged long-running advert in "The Propeller" claiming to have New Waratahs on hand), but there was a surprise advert from P&R Williams offering "a few New Waratah Motor Cycles" in December 1942. No mention of the model, but let's guess 9D engines.

The post war, I found an announcement of "limited quantities" of 1945-model Waratahs in September 1945 (all 9D). The "Brand New 1946 Model Waratahs" landed in July 1946.

As I see it, the Waratah for sale could be either a "1942 surprise shipment" landed in December 1942 or a "1945 model" landed in September 1945. I'd guess bikes in both shipments might look pretty prewar, with the "1946 model" having what we call postwar features - new frame, gear change through the tank, etc.

I'll try again for frame number.

Leon