classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: r80gs on December 30, 2010, 10:36:58 AM
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I'm re-riding and filming routes my grandfather used to take as a dispatch rider in the war. (Slightly ironically I'll be on my BMW R80GS). Unfortunately I need to do it as soon as possible so hope to have it done by the end of January. The main route is likely to take the A roads from Huddersfield down to London and may cross over to France. The route may change after talking to him in more depth but I'm happy to make detours to points of interest.
He also drove trucks and was a big fan of speedway so I'd like to incorporate this in the trip also. Does anyone have recommendations for appropriate sound tracks from the time? Any background about the role he would have played and other relevant info on research material would be gratefully received.
As he describes it he used to have the pick of the best bikes available at the time. I realise that it will be difficult to find people willing to take out bikes of that era at this time of year. I shall find out more about the bikes he rode but do you know of anyone who would be willing to let me film them (on appropriate bikes).
As he is not able to join me for the trip my aim is to make a film that takes him back to the memories he speaks so fondly of: Stories such as laying his bike down in front of trainee recruits. If you have any other information or could put me on to links that may be of use, for research or support, I'd be very grateful.
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No reply so far to your request?
Maybe it has to do with the fact that your project seems a bit half-baked, to put it mildly?
You are not sure about the bikes nor the route you want to take and you don't even own a proper camera to do your filming with?
All you know for sure is that this will have to be completed in less than four weeks?
A bit more preparation would have done the project good but maybe you will find someone to assist you within the more specialized forums.
Try this one: http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3155626639&frmid=16&msgid=0 (BSA WDM20)
or this one: http://pub4.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=267471303&frmid=103&msgid=0 (Norton WD16H)
Good Luck!
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Fair comment. ;D
It may well be an impressive failure but we can only but do our best.
I do have an HD SLR that makes incredible quality films and I'm probably buying a small HD helmet cam in the sales.
The photography and film department of the Beaulieu motor museum are kindly helping to advise me on the project. I've found a few wiling participants to practise on, but on modern bikes unfortunately, and will try to post examples by the end of next week.
Visiting my grandpa this weekend for more details so will keep you posted.
Thank you for the links, any support is gratefully received.
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How about some info and pics on your Esometisse. Esometisse! Looks to be an interesting mix.
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there is a speedway track down here in Birmingham and my farther had Tiger stevens ( might be a name your relative knows ) dirt track Douglas There is also someone down here i know with a very large collection of early dirt machines I can arrange for you to meat him if your ever down this way
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Have you considered that the main routes between Huddersfield and London have changed so much in the last 65 years that they may no longer be recognisable?
I mention it because I have come across that problem myself with a similar project of my own.
Its even more pronounced in France where most of the old routes, and certainly the ones through larger towns have disappeared.
I suggest another avenue may be comparisons via old postcards, not so daft as it may seem at first, certainly the scenes on those captured back then will be more recognisable to your grandad.
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AA route finder says 214 miles avoiding m/ways , but for a really interesting route set your sat nav to avoid all m/ways and shortest route , some of the roads ive found round Bham this way look like theyve never seen a car or bike since ww2 , nice way to spend a sunday out on me old bike ,
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can't get my sat nav to work on acetylene............ :D
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First filming session is going to be on Wednesday over the tops between Harrogate and Otley. Only bikers available ride a new bmw and a new triumph but it will be good to practise on.
The bikes my Grandpa rode were an AGS 1920 250c, a Matchless 1930 750cc and an Army Triumph 500cc. These are the ones he can remember there are more and his fastest bike was made from parts pilfered from the army parts department. We are going to go through his cigarette cards, postcards and photos to see if any of them refresh his memory.
He used to go from London to Leicester every other day. When he got to Leicester he disconnect his speedo and went to visit his wife in Huddersfield, making it back to London the same night.
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your grandads memory is faulty, Army Triumphs were 350s, there is no such bike as a 750 matchless of any year, and as for an AGS, thats a new one on me.
Was he service or civilian? Its possible in the early war years he was riding a requisitioned civvy bike.
Usual 1939-45 Army machines were
BSA M20 500sv
Matchless G3 ; after 1941 G3LS, both 350ohv
Ariel 350 WNG 350cc ohv
Triumph 3HW 350cc ohv
Royal Enfield 350cc ohv; plus a few 350sv
Norton16H 500cc sv
Huddersfield to London by night riding with a blackout mask, a 25watt headlamp and a machine rarely capable of exceeding 60mph in the daylight is a yarn I would take with a pinch of salt.
I think you need to do a lot more research.
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Although I have found a 250 AGS it does look a little late so I may be wrong he may have meant an AJS or I wrote it down wrong.
Is there not a matchless scrambler 750; this link may not but it but I did find a reference to it. http://www.cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/matchless/Matchless_1930_ohv_14-802.htm
Triumphs of that size did exist in that era although they may not have been standard issue. I believe him when he tells me his position allowed him to pick the best bikes available in the armies possession.
At 60miles an hour you could cover 480 miles in 8 hours which is about (if not less than) what the journey would have been at the time. Given he told me he left at 5am I find it quite plausible that he'd make it back to 'London the same night'.
Think I'll believe his account over your opinion but thank you all the same. The forum is part of my research process so any constructive advice is gratefully received.
Thank you for idea about postcards it was a great idea I'll try to follow up.
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It is also possible he rode the triumph after the end of the war as this was only a list of bikes he'd ridden (not necessarily through WW2).
http://www.ianchadwick.com/motorcycles/triumph/models.html
A 5/3W 500 sv model was designed for military use in 1949, replaced by TRW.
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;D
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At 60miles an hour you could cover 480 miles in 8 hours which is about (if not less than) what the journey would have been at the time. Given he told me he left at 5am I find it quite plausible that he'd make it back to 'London the same night'.
Think I'll believe his account over your opinion but thank you all the same.
Well, maybe, but time lends a certain romanticism to these events in the past. The poorly lit, badly (non) sign-posted roads, and a dim 6V black-out headlamp all with an old bike of the 1930s casts a bit of doubt over the plausibility of this particular tale. Sixty average MPH would be a good figure now, never mind under those conditions.
Not saying the old boy is full of BS, but the journey times have possibly shrunk with the passing years, and maybe he actually started late afternoon and arrived some time the next day?
Something I noticed with my old Dad (now gone) was that in later years two (or more) tales ended up being rolled up together into one in his memory, and that one tale being rather tall gave the game away.....
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I have known him all my life in fact I believe my dad has too, strangely. The 'story' has remained the same all his life even when he wasn't getting on. It's also a story confirmed by my Grandma.
But loving the cynicism.
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But your Grandma wouldn't have known the time he left, only what the rider had told her?
Cynicism's good. Otherwise you'd believe all the old boys' tales of rebuilding Manx engines by the light of a glow-worm, or carving a new set of points from a fag paper and an acorn, or making a replacement piston from a Heinz beans tin.
The stories grow year on year, or they may have been tall stories when first told, who knows? People's own memories play tricks on them, let alone when they're repeated time and again.
All interesting, but not to be taken as entirely factual.
After all, could you envisage keeping up a 60 MPH average (ie probably hitting 90 occasionally) on country lanes for eight hours on a girder/rigid bike from the 1930s in the dark?
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Its not cynicism but realism.
I have done some marathon rides on vintage bikes, and I mean vintage; the best I ever managed in daylight was around 400 miles on 1938 500 in France with relatively traffic free roads.
Not bad weather mind, a nice May day,not in the hours of darkness and at the end I was totally knackered.
you are making the classic modern rider mistake of backprojecting your wishful thinking re speeds and possibilites.
There is no way you could ride a 350 Matchless, which was the best and fastest of the WD machines save maybe a good Ariel, at 60mph all that way in the hours of darkness even part way ,
I suggest you scrounge a ride behind a blackout mask one day........
At 60mph its near flat out. Brakes are, well try one for your self, they are 5inch diameter......
He would also have needd to refuel at least twice, where? with rationed petrol? at an Army base of his route? not likely
That is a nice Matchless but its still not a "scrambler", whereever did you get that notion? I repeat Matchless did not make a 750.
I thin its a good project and wish you well, but I still think you need to sit back a bit and do more research.
No disrespect to the old feller, but memories play tricks.
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I've done 100 miles in a days cycling and I'm a fat lad. In a ten hour day you only need to average 10 miles an hour. Hence on a journey of 400 (which is the actual distance there and back on the A roads) (even if it probably wasn't then!)you only need to average 40mph. Never said it would have been easy but it is very much do-able.
It's not a factual documentary for the BBC it's to make an old man happy who is no longer able to get on a bike. If I get facts wrong it's good to be corrected in a constructive fashion. What I'm really looking for are links and resources to help my research and hopefully achieve my goal.
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author=r80gs link=topic=3402.msg11510#msg11510 date=1294166961]
I've done 100 miles in a days cycling and I'm a fat lad. In a ten hour day you only need to average 10 miles an hour. Hence on a journey of 400 (which is the actual distance there and back on the A roads) (even if it probably wasn't then!)you only need to average 40mph.
True, but if you average at 40 MPH, then to make up for the bits when you're doing 10 or 20 MPH, at other times you need to do 60 MPH.
So the old boy averaging 60 MPH would need to be really steamimg along at times, and sadly he really ain't going to be steaming along at 80+ on this bike in these conditions.
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Rex is right, banging along at 30mph or whatever is not averaging 30mph at all.
I am not patronising you by any means but as a relative newcomer to motorcycling [I've clocked up 50 years on bikes this year] I am nor sure that you have really realised just how different things were back then.
But,still thinking its a nice project, with definate possibilites have you considered a helmet cam ?
for period postcard views of relevant scenes ebay is quite good, as is DelcampeGB and Frith photos.
Also the late Titch Allen wrote much of his experiences as a wartime despatch rider.
Get in touch with the VMCC about that.
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<snip>
Is there not a matchless scrambler 750; this link may not but it but I did find a reference to it. http://www.cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/matchless/Matchless_1930_ohv_14-802.htm
<snip>
At 60miles an hour you could cover 480 miles in 8 hours which is about (if not less than) what the journey would have been at the time. Given he told me he left at 5am I find it quite plausible that he'd make it back to 'London the same night'.
That Matchless you quote is neither 750cc, ohv, or a scrambler.
Its a mis-labelled 990cc sidevalve.
A big, expensive, tourer to boot....
I'd agree, averaging 60 mph back then, when most bikes could barely do 60 mph, and where on most roads 60 mph was impossible, is bordering on nonsense. Maybe a lot more hours were involved ?
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this one here is a Matchless 750 ohv scrambler:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPyComeHSRg ;D
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yes but you couldnt buy one in 1940
and R, that Matchless is not a mislabelled 990 sv but a series D ohv single; sloper engine as was the fashion then, certainly wouldnt average 60mph either
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I only said they were bikes he'd owned not necessarily over the war period.
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I reckon that old Matchie was on the continent somewhere.
The number plate isn't British, and the pillion set-up is typically French/German/Austrian. Still see those funny contraptions on old European classics even now.
Nice old girl, but even Ago would be hard-pushed to average 60 on it....!
{Wish I had it though...sigh}
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If your grandad rode bikes pre war, and then had one of those 750 Matchless scramblers when they were current circa 1968-ish then he must be one tough old bugger for the age he would have been in 1968.
A heavy bike those and fast.
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that Matchless is not a mislabelled 990 sv but a series D ohv single; sloper engine as was the fashion then, certainly wouldnt average 60mph either
Have another look at it.
Its a v-twin, you can (just) see the base of the rear cylinder, magneto is behind the riders leg where you'd expect it on a v-twin. So a stock standard 990cc 1929 Model X with electrics, exhaust pipe at the front is where you'd expect it on a sidevalve.
http://www.cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/matchless/Matchless_1930_ohv_14-802.htm
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heres a 1929 X
http://www.veteran-motorcycle.com/images/Matchless/29X/MATCHLESSX29.jpg
nothing like the other one, which is obviously OHV
what you can see by the the rider leg is the magdyno
CORRECTION
I correct myself having managed to blow the pic up.
I still contend its OHV, not SV BUT look again I dont even think its a Matchless engine compare crankcases that one has a very smooth bullbous look to it, very continental.
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Err, precisely, the magdyno IS the magneto.
The only way it can be behind the riders leg is if the engine is a v-twin.
You can also see the twin fishtails through the rear wheel - the lower one is pretty faint.
Folks who have looked at that "ohv" pic have concluded that what is visible is the sidevalve cylinderhead, and something in the background that makes it look like ohv.
Exactly the same bike as the 1929 pic you found, plus electrics.
Plus that continental looking pillion seat arrangement.
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this bike is NOT a Matchless
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right thats two of us in agreement wetdog
at the three o clock position by the horn is a spark plug, above that are rocker supports of the dog ear type.
you contention about the magneto/magdyno is wrong, lots of vintage eevn post vintage era V twins had a mag in FRONT of the engine.
I agree its V-twin but its not a Matchless just compare te two pics there is far too much open air over the engine on the Matchless X.
this bike is a continental mongrel, certainly looks like Matchless logo on the tank.
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this bike is NOT a Matchless
This is a very strange statement.
Compare all the bits.
Same forks.
Same 3 bar frame (which CANNOT be a co-incidence).
Same wheels.
Same brakes.
Matchless paint scheme on the tank. (but no visible logo ).
Same bolt pattern/location on the visible engine bits.
Rear cylinder and nuts just visible under the riders coat.
Magdyno in correct location for a v-twin 990cc.
Twin fishtails just visible through the back wheel - top one quite high, as v-twin.
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Can any one here overlay the two photos to compare?
my pooter skills are not up to it.
Granted the majority of the bike is Matchless but its had a whole lots of engine alterations, either a different ohv engine or, even a different ohv top end grafted on.
A very neat job too
From what I have seen of continental machines of the era its a possibility, certainly if its an Austrian or German reg they would have had the technical skills to do it.
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It has been discussed somewhere else that the rider could be George Rowley - AJS Factory rider ?
If so, then this just may be a factory test bike (on test on the Continent ).
But only after the amalgamation with AMC.
The background is an interesting pattern of stuff - its also been suggested the "ohv" bit is an illusion of the background. Or a doctored photo, factory even, of an ohv...
Unless we can see the other side, its hard to know for certain.
P.S. Unless 2 photos are taken from EXACTLY the same viewpoint / angle of the bike, overlaying them will produce size differences.
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Nobody has mentioned that the very unique toolbox just in front of the saddle springs, which is oval in section, & is the same on both bikes. Taking into account that one is circa 1929 & the other circa 1930, this would allow of some differences. I think the bike is definitely a Matchless (or AJS equivalent).
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Nobody has mentioned that the very unique toolbox just in front of the saddle springs, which is oval in section, & is the same on both bikes.
Useful comment, just another plank in a raft of the same.
I think the bike is definitely a Matchless (or AJS equivalent).
Nope, in 1929 AJS and Matchless were 2 quite different companies.
This was built as a Matchless.
Someone who knows these things says the forks were altered for 1930, so 1930 its not.
If it was made into something different after the AMC takeover, then that is something else again....
Wish we could see the other side...
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If you look closely at that "ohv" pic, you can see the fins for the sidevalve head, and the exhaust pipe exactly where the sidevalve pipe should be. If it was ohv, this just cannot be.
The "rocker support post" appears to be something on the other side of the bike ?
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you must have a better screen than mine, I go u to x400 before it pixilates
Anyway after close scrutiny I concede defeat I can just about make out the head fins, whats behind is a continuation of the back ground on the left
990 sv it is.
wish it was mine
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If you zoom in under the tank, well before it pixilates, the sidevalve head fins and that fir cone are visible - the fir cone is directly behind the white blob (spark plug).
Think fir cone, rather than rocker post supports.
http://www.cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/matchless/Matchless_1930_ohv_14-802.htm
http://www.veteran-motorcycle.com/images/Matchless/29X/MATCHLESSX29.jpg
wish it was mine
Ditto.
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Here we go again;
The matchless 750, according to Gramps, was not a scrambler (that was a possible suggestion from me, however wrong it may have been) and it was pre war. It was built to run with a sidecar and as such pulled in one direction under acceleration (he told me which but I don't remember or feel it important to me even if it may be to you). He changed the sprocket(or some such technical word) so it wasn't so highly geared(might have said that wrong, if it enriches your life to correct me please do). There were many others as he had his first bike whilst he was still at school and he left school very young.
So to the war: although there were two MAIN bikes they were both Triumphs one of which was a standard issue and the other (which officially did not exists) made from bits of a variety of Triumph bikes, he ran both on the same number plates(illegally clearly). He had a blue and white arm band that allowed him to ride as fast as he could without being stopped. I'm not clear about the next point but he disconnected the limiter(this could have been on trucks which he drove for a period through the war rather than bikes). As far as refuelling goes there were army refuelling depose set up along most major routes.
Certain facts may not be entirely accurate but please remember what I'm trying to do, and why, and show enough imagination to appreciate the circumstance in which I'm trying to achieve them. What I consider a fact is that he did do London to Huddersfield and back, a journey he suggested today(without prompt or reference) was 420miles, on a regular basis. This has been supported by his word, my grandmothers and my fathers throughout my living memory and that of the fore mentioned.
I would happily prove this is doable (for a charity of your choice) if anyone is good enough to lend me an appropriate Triumph or lesser bike on which to do so. Sadly certain quarters value their shiny garage ornaments more than they value the opportunity to honour the ethos and sacrifice that helped create them.
For those that have offered help and encouragement, thank you.
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As already mentioned, you or your grandfathers memory is not what it used to be - Matchless did not make a 750cc bike prewar.
Or anything like that capacity really, unless it was really ancient - 770cc was a popular size a decade or 2 earlier. (in many makes of bikes).
Its my understanding that sidecars generally pull to one side in some circumstances, its impossible to get a neutral balance all the time. And need to be steered, all the time. Old timers say you can tell a first time sidecar driver - they have bits of hedge in their teeth !!
Hopethishelps.
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First filming session is going to be on Wednesday over the tops between Harrogate and Otley. Only bikers available ride a new bmw and a new triumph but it will be good to practise on.
The bikes my Grandpa rode were an AGS 1920 250c, a Matchless 1930 750cc and an Army Triumph 500cc. These are the ones he can remember there are more and his fastest bike was made from parts pilfered from the army parts department. We are going to go through his cigarette cards, postcards and photos to see if any of them refresh his memory.
He used to go from London to Leicester every other day. When he got to Leicester he disconnect his speedo and went to visit his wife in Huddersfield, making it back to London the same night.
Don't really want to add to all the confusion, but it could be possible that your grandfather is mistaken regarding the capacity of the Matchless. If the Matchless was from around 1930/1931 as you said, it could possibly have been a 400cc Matchless Silver Arrow SV V twin of which 37 examples were purchased and tested by the War Office for signal duties (British Motorcycle Forces 1925-45 by Orchard and Madden).
Hope this helps.
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I believe that the blue white armband was a Royal Signals armband, while it may have authorised him to go as fast as he liked, [and I am not too sure on that point,] it did not make the bike go any faster.
You will have to excuse the slight scepticism here from some quarters, a lot of us know what its like to attempt the same sort of distances on old bikes, in fact some of us were there.
Its still a nice project, just don't spoil it by lack of research and hasty assumption.
Not many folk have either the inclination to get their bikes shiney or otherwise out in this weather for someone elses project, and , maybe they dont have the spare time or cash for such a jolly either.
remarks such as " Sadly certain quarters value their shiny garage ornaments more than they value the opportunity to honour the ethos and sacrifice that helped create them."
are liable to alienate those from whom you seek help, quite quickly
The last part of the sentence is pure bollocks.
PS
I suggest you go to the Real Classic site http://www.realclassic.co.uk/messages.html and ask for Woodie, who has a fund of info about the signals units.