classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: johnnyboy-wonder57 on August 01, 2011, 11:23:15 AM
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I was talking to a mate the other day, Wallace Thompson, about the farcical situation of OLD becoming GOLD & joked that I bet he wished he still had his BSA 350 Gold Star in the garage that he bought new from Wally Howard of Ramsgate Kent & he was saying with HP, he had to have fully comp insurance which worked out @£80 in 1961!
Apart from this expense, we got on to how E-Types had their prices inflation some years ago & how they were seen as an investment and people paid £100,000 for them only to find some years later that they couldn't get anyone to give them £60,000 for them, a bit like negative equity see!
Having been a motorcycle enthusiast all my life and having experienced being turned away from Pubs/ bars, cafes for riding a motorcycle, plus associated family and general society disapproval, I find it quite galling to have my primary enthusiasm for two-wheelers high-jacked by investors, possible city types/auctioneers, media publishers and all of that ilk probably in most cases trying to make a fast buck out of my favourite pursuit, to the point that it may @ some point be pointless in monetary terms to pursue it any longer, the whole thing becoming one big financial rip-off.
Probably the hyper-inflationary practices cannot be stopped now, but my friends, look what happened to the Housing Market, it seems crazy to me that in 1976 my parents bought a semi-detached house with over 3/4 an acre of land for less that £13,000. I afraid a few Troy ounces of Gold will be in the long-run a better investment than a two-wheeled piece of history, unless its has a racing pedigree or a famous certified owner, be prepared for the bubble to burst and many may be caught with their pants down, NEED not GREED must ever be the watchword on this issue.
The whole issue deeply saddens me like the rush for Fool's gold some centuries ago, WHO really is making the money out of vintage & Classic motorcycling, I think if you look carefully you all might be surprised!
Cheers
JBW
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Always winners and losers....who cares {unless there's some juicy Conspiracy Theory about to break regarding the prices of BSA Bantams.... ;)}
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There is no way of stopping it because it,s so easy to invest in a motorcycle. Buy a machine put it in a vac bag stick it at the back of the garage and forget it. It will certainly return more money than the local bank or building society. They were just going after the more expensive machines but now they have realised that they can even do the same with a rusty wreck.
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I blame David Dickinson
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Congratulations on my favourite comment on the forum - ever..! It will have many of the non-British wondering what you're talking about, but anyone familiar with British daytime TV will know exactly what you mean...
Nigel
http://www.vintagebike.co.uk (http://www.vintagebike.co.uk)
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If you google David Dickinson, the very first result is something fantasy website related, so this says it all.
It does seem odd that some old classics are becoming way way way beyond the price of a brand new bike off the show-room floor. Not sure what this says about the modern buying psyche, but nostalgia sure ain't what it used to be....
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It's that old Law of Supply and Demand in action....they ain't making those classics any more... ;)
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Most of these idiot prices are due to dreamers with huge superannuation payouts and haven't got a clue anyway. Trailer queens who probably could once ride but too scared now! Me.. bitter and twisted...Nah! And as for museums, what a waste! I'd rather see them used and ridden to rallies for us to see!
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I used to think much the same way until a ch**per-building in-bred on another web-site pointed out that it's "his bike to do with as he pleases" although those weren't the exact words used.. ;)
Same applies...if someone wants to ride 10,000 miles a year or 0 miles a year and just polish, who are we to say what's right or wrong?
At least if those bikes are highly valued there's a good chance someone somewhere will make spares and repro parts for them.
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They are worth what someone will pay,. simple as that.
As a teenager, early 70's, I used to stand and drool over the new Triumphs in the window of Grays of West St, Sheffield. I would dream that one day I would have one for myself, sadly I could never afford one. Best I did was an old Villiers. Women, children and mortgages then got in the way for 30 odd years.
Not now though. ;D
If anyone would deny me thats their problem.
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In the 60's I used to ride on the top decks of buses looking into front gardens for old bikes.
Knock on the door and ask if they wanted it.
best they'd say take it away, worst they'd suggest sex and travel.
What you could get for 10 bob [50p] in them days eh? Makes you weep now.
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Eyup Toz,
I remember running backwards and forwards to Syd Smiths trying to keep a knackered old C15 on the road. Parts from Syd always seemed to be out of stock and take a lifetime to appear. :(
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well I got not for an investment but my BSA cost me 100 quid when I got her and still have her, I paid the same price for my 750 Norton, what are they worth now, don't really know, and don't really care as I don't plan to sell either one. it about the fun and pleasure they give me when I ride them,t hey are not an alterantive to a pension plan.
(spelling errors corrected)
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Guys,
Some interesting comments, but, @ the end of the day the negatives associated with inflated values will add up, to a troublesome brew, anyone bothering to view alternative news stations to the endless drivel we get , on a loop system I may add, just might have had an insight that @ the moment we are on the edge of a financial abyss more serious than the 1920s & 1930s 'cos this time the F*** up is truly Global, fuelled by a motive called GREED.
Buying a machine to polish or ride is rightfully up to the owner & that is of no concern to me, except from a secondary impact, in that specialist companies in spares and "know how" may go to the wall, because if high investment "products", which old & some new,motorcycles R fast becoming, are not being used and zipped up in vac' bags, the market for their products, replacement spares etc, will be reduced in size & may become almost non-existent.
Through a less than honest practice known as theft, you will also stand a higher chance that your piece of historic metal, through its inflated value will become more desirable to some of our less than honest citizens, acquiring said two-wheeled products illegally will therefore increase and insurance premiums will therefore increase too, therefore the cost of motorcycling will subsequently rise.
We could build historic machines, better than the originals, I am not sure what this would now cost if constructed in the UK, but the fact is that we are not allowed to, whilst within the EU.
Of course the Auction industry is interested in higher prices as they get a higher amount of money, in the percentage fee and then, I believe there is a double dose of VAT for the Government paid by the Seller and the Buyer in any transaction. Finally, (I think ), corrosion can only be slowed by a vac' bag and the engines internals in general do not like being stood for a long-time being unused, without "fire" in the engine, then its not technically a motor-cycle any more, they were built to be used and enjoyed presumably ridden on the road, once "things" become investment commodities, I feel the road to ruin is just round the corner, its just a matter of time.
Many true enthusiasts will not be able to afford the simple pleasures & experience of motorcycle ownership & all that goes with it.
Cheers
Jonahbw
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We could build historic machines, better than the originals, I am not sure what this would now cost if constructed in the UK, but the fact is that we are not allowed to, whilst within the EU.
Why do you say that?
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"True enthusiast"
is the most overworked and abused words to be found in around under old motorcycles.
Always has been,
older ones here will remember the ads that used to run in the weeklies
"real enthusiast seeks old bikes any condition," = number plate dealer
or
"impecunious enthusiast seeks Brough, cammy Velo, Inter, Vincent to love and cherish"
thats a back door dealer
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The trade in stolen disassembled bike parts is already a booming industry, can you imagine why? because we (motorcyclists in general) are prepared to buy them. As you say the higher the bike prices, the greater the risk of theft, but be under no illusion, there are scrotes already out there that would take the pennies off a dead mans eyes!
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"As you say the higher the bike prices, the greater the risk of theft", what a load of sh*t , why is classic insurance so cheap , that sort of comment explains why so few are seen used
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why is classic insurance so cheap ... because so few are taken outdoors and because they are never left alone unlike modern bikes. It does not emphasize the safeness of classic bikes as a risk, but tells a tale of woes about modern bikes and riders.
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It's that old Law of Supply and Demand in action....they ain't making those classics any more... ;)
Well, actually, when you look around, Manx Nortons, G50 Matchies, KTT Velos and BSA GoldStars are all available new, from a number of sources.
JAP engined Broughs and Vincents have enough spares available to build new ones ? 4 Cylinder Indians and Hendersons spares are sufficient to (almost ?) make all new ones. Various year Indians spares are available new, enough to build new ones. Bike magazines a while back built several models of BMWs new from spares.
A number of new MV's and japanese 4 cylinder racers have been built, using available parts, modified parts and new parts.
A batch of 1890s' Hildebrand & Wolfmullers were built from nothing.
A supply of HD 1910 models has appeared on the market recently.
And a museum of historic bikes near Brum were recreated from near nothing after a blaze removed many of them from history. Including making a replica of the replica that Rem Fowler rode to win the twin cylinder class of the first TT.
etc etc etc.
So you'd almost have to conclude they ARE making more of them ??
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I wouldn't conclude that at all.
The wealthy may be able to commision a new MV or Goldie, but for the average Joe it's no more than a pipe dream; fifty years ago it was possible for that average Joe to own a Vinnie, Goldie or Bonnie mainly because they weren't particularly sought-after/expensive.
The two scenarios really are worlds apart.....
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We are looking at the somewhat expensive end of the market here.
Still plenty of less exotics around, at less exotic prices.
While we are here, in the 1950s, a new Manx Norton cost about more than a (basic) house did in London.
How many years salary would that equate to then ?
And were extremely restricted in supply - if you didn't look like you could win a race or 2, you didn't get one.
Compare that to now ?
How many manxes to a house value ??
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Rex,
Look up, what happened to BSA- Regal when they tried to go ahead and manufacture NEW Classic machines within the Euro-zone. Race replicas and rebuilt old stuff probably comes under different rules of engagement, I was thinking of a classic being re-manufactured in the UK without fuel injection and of a price that is realistic to potential buyers!
Last week I saw holiday makers trailering a Vincent 1000, would you feel comfortable having a Classic motorcycle of that value behind your car or van, £25-£40,000 ? I know I wouldn't any more, increased values have got to mean increased risks and as things get more rough in an economic down-turn, unscrupulous people will look towards all types of venues for monetary gain.
Insurance may be cheap now, but is this not linked to usage, Classic bikes are getting increasingly to many, too precious to use! So therefore they are increasingly low risk. Maybe Classic Insurers, are not Rip-off merchants to begin with.
As far as True enthusiast is concerned, its someone in my view who sees the machine for what it, is rather than a pot of money, if the term has been hijacked by Shisters I suppose its no surprise!
Finally, it was only a personal view and I suppose I was playing Devil's advocate, increasing I am alarmed on Forums how quickly people get heated and often get personal, we are all bike enthusiasts right. I may be right, but then again I may be wrong, not often I hasten to add, JUST JOKING HERE GUYS; just some ideas bouncing around in my head that's all!
So safe riding and good luck with restoring.
Cheers
JBW
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There has been substantial chat elsewhere about the New Nortons struggling to make ends meet, with small scale production.
The problem is, folks these days seem to go for all the bling and hype - if its not there, they don't buy. So selling a basic bike (which probably won't meet emissions standards ?) is only going to work in 3rd world countries - where they already buy them by the gazillions. That means they have to be tough and long-lived, not easy to do with a new design.
What is it they say - how do you make a small fortune out of making motorcycles ?
A. Invest a large fortune in them.
All good fun, could conjecture and dream for ever.
As motorcyclists have been doing forever...
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R,
I am not strictly talking about a basic bike, some thing a little different perhaps, I was thinking more on a biking version of an original 4x4, low-tech in a sensible way, fully- adjustable controls, solid & reliable, power-output where it matters, availability of spares & products which would enable owners to change its purpose with ease from say almost Paris-Dakar to Autobahn stormer,the focus on what motorcycles are I feel needs to change, will change, roads are rougher ... the endless diet of race-replicas is becoming so mundane, will say more but busy day ahead!
Camshaft options gearbox options, like what was available for the BSA GOLD STAR, maybe even a modern version of a semi- pre-unit set-up to make all these things easier!
Cheers
JBW
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[hnnyboy-wonder link=topic=3875.msg13502#msg13502 date=1312631212]
Rex,
Look up, what happened to BSA- Regal when they tried to go ahead and manufacture NEW Classic machines within the Euro-zone.
Don't need to look it up as I remember that piece of Yamaha-engined shite. Nothing to do with any Euro-zone malarkey, but plenty to do with an over-priced unattractive bike playing unsuccessfully on an old name.
Still, it's good that these old companies keep going....I mean, who would ever have thought that the "World's Biggest Mototcycle Manufacturer" would end up toshing up houes in the back streets (and there's a lot of them!) of Southampton?
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Rex,
You on some medication or illegal substances? I can't do an answer to you comments effectively, 'cos you seem to have gone off on some "Jack the Ripper
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bugger, ....anyhow....Jack the Ripper type fantasy illusion-trip!
To manufacture effectively in the EU is almost impossible, its too bureaucratic, the pollution targets are effectively near impossible to meet & unrealistic to boot, material costs are high and the skills & industrial basis we had in the UK has either been auctioned off, made unemployed, come to retirement or well past retirement age , plus everyone & their dog wants fees & some kind of cut out of the process before you have even made any money @ all!
Hence the inflated price tag on products made within the UK. Yesterday, I was informed that the new Triumphs were almost effectively, made in Taiwan, got to check this fact out though! However, I will try & find an email from BSA-Regal explaining production difficulties within the EU, were you talking about the twin or the single or both?
On top of this the UK Government is legally bound to meet decreased carbon emissions and the only way to do this is decrease human activity & to adopt flawed technologies, which I would be surprised if, any of them have an ounce of practicality amongst them.
Cheers
JBW
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Dunno what Jack the Ripper has to do with anything, but here's BSA's current resume and address.
http://www.bsa-regal.co.uk/.
Do your house painting and a rewire....and FA to do with the EU... ;D
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Sorry Rex,
"World's Biggest Mototcycle Manufacturer" would end up toshing up houes in the back streets (and there's a lot of them!) of Southampton?
You meant houses, doing up houses, I thought you meant touching up whores, in slang or something, I hadn't got my glasses on, sorry Rex my mistake, I watched Get Carter last night & had a stressful day repairing my rover car..My apologies I just going to take my medication!
Cheers
JBconfused
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i always wondered whatever happend to judith? i got the shock of my life when she made me chose between her an me new 68 bonnie, we hadnt bin married long i was heartbroken. :(
the housing market is very simple to regulate, a law one man one house would make them afordable, same with bikes, a law you gotta tax inshure run/ride prove it via mot mileage stamps would cure the problem, the problem is the people at street level dont count. if you want any proof of law for the rich and law for the poor check out what you can get legal aid for or not. >:(
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It might "cure the problem" as you put it, but it would certainly create a million more problems!
You really want to live in such a regulated state as you suggest?
I don't, but then I've got several bikes, and as they're all bought and paid for by me, I'll ride them as much or as little as I want, thanks very much.