classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: Scooter on October 04, 2011, 12:43:54 PM
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I'm trying to identify a bike that I found overseas and purchased. The tank badge is the standard "M" Matchless tank badge, but the motor has BSA on it. I'm fairly certain that this bike is a mix and match of parts from both manufacturers, at the very least. I've seen some numbers stamped on the engine, but can't seem to find the frame #. Any idea where to locate a frame number? And how do I identify what year and make this bike really is?
Cheers!
-Scott
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http://www.wdbsa.nl/
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Some years ago I was given a 'bike' that was a skillful blend of a BSA M20 engine welded (!!) into a Matchless frame. Does that make it a BSA-LESS ?
Although in much better condition, your bike is somewhat along those lines, as you say ?
Have fun !
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WD M20 engine
Matchless G3 frame
seems to be Matchless forks with other additions, poss Ariel or Triumph; thats looking at the handlebar clamps which are not Matchless,
Gearbox is a late 50's Burman B52.
carb looks Bing, maybe Dellorto, certainly continental.
From the angle of the oil tank which has a Norton or M20 filler cap, it is either from a later Matchless or there is something seriously wrong with the frame.
Fuel tank might well be from a later Matchless.
Frame number can just be seen above the oil tank filler, looking at it again it seems to me that the rear half of the frame is not Matchless, which would account for the queer angle of the oil tank.
What a dog.
It'll be far worse inside.
I betting you found it in Spain or Greece? or maybe middle east? Italians made a better job of such things.
Bllody Heck!!!! I have just noticed that the frame down tube is missing!! cut off at the top oiltank bracket, weigh the thing in its scrap. :(
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Yebbut,
Thanks for the reply. And good eye btw. Yes, the seat tube is missing about a 2 inch section, hence the "queer" angle of the oil tank. I can't tell the wifey that you've said "weigh it in and scrap it", lest she yell at me and reply "I told you not to bring it home!" I figured I'd try to find the origin of this bike, like what model and year is it really. Sounds like a '40 G3, from what you say. I had planned on starting with that as a reference or guide in the restoration process. But seeing as how it has so many different parts, I guess I can make it whatever the hell I want. Maybe even a bobber. I'd hate to scrap it, if I can make it look like a 40's Matchless, it might be worth a try? Maybe a less loftier goal would be to try to make it look like a 40's British bike It's currently mostly OD green, but I could make it into one of the civilian versions with a nice glossy powder coat frame. That might make it easier on the resto. If there's a slim to none chance of making this thing authentic, then I have pretty broad guidelines. Maybe I can put some parts off my Duc 999 on there :D
Anyhow, I did manage to locate the frame # (22402) and the engine # (as stated earlier, it's a '43 BSA). I suppose if the project starts too look too ominous, it might be worth selling for parts. There's gotta be people out there in need of fronts forks, BSA motor, carb, etc.
Thanks again for your input. It's always welcome.
Scott
P.S. you were right, I picked it up in the middle east, Iraq to be specific.
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make it safe and ride it ,looks like it may have worked at some time . you can go anywhere and see fully restored standard bikes ,but turn up on that for some real interest ,anyone can rebuild a bike back to standard but that is one of a kind , i just hope it was a good price ( cheap )
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Yes, it was cheap. That's for sure. Nearly free. I'm hoping that with maybe a couple grand into restoring it, it might be in decent riding shape. If I can't make it into a 40's British bike at a bare minimum, I can always use the motor and forks and turn it into a bobber, kind of like the pic below. And if that's not an option, I'll list it for parts.
Once again, thanks for your input/advice. I'm new the the Brit bike scene, and this is my first foray.
Cheers!
Scott
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Have a butchers inside the engine before throwing any money at it.
Probably find the Iraqis discarded it after a lifetime's hard work, during which the poor thing was bodged bodged and bodged again just to keep the wheels turning.
My advice would be to break it down into it's various makes, flog off the stuff that's either the wrong make or too far gone, then buy a relevant engine or frame from Ebay and build from that.
Some of those foreign "bodges by necessity" are ingenious, but they can cost a lot of time and money to rectify. :(
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Hacked Matchy frame, M20 forks, Matchy oiltank, gutless M20 engine, B52 Burman box, Matchy clutch, face it it's a complete bodge. Sell the girders and gearbox and you should get your money back.
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Rex - I like your idea. If I go that route, what's worth more complete? A '40 G3 or a '43 M20?
Rogerwilco - I'll have to crack open the case when I get home. If it's shit, then the motor will get discarded, if not, I might use it as Rex suggested and build around it.
Thanks guys!
-Scott
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If I go that route, what's worth more complete? A '40 G3 or a '43 M20?
both of those ex WD bikes sell for a lot.
yours woudnt as it would just be tat altered to look like one of those.
Turning it back into either a G3 or M20 will cost more than buying the gen article.
Finding enough correct bits will be a project in itself.
dismantle it, identify the parts flog the bits off, put the money towards something decent and regard ir as a lesson learnt.
Do not let your heart rule your head and above never never ever take on projects that are beyond your abilitys,
The bike is scrap, treat it as such.
And as for thinking of spendin a couple of grand on it? :o
Have you got locked into Saddams secret bank account or your own oil well?
If not see a Medic immediately.....................
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Thanks for your help! It seemed like it had so much potential. I should've done some more research before acquiring it. Maybe I'll just save my money and put it towards buying one that's already complete, or close enough to it.
Thanks again!
-Scott
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He's being overly negative.
M20s etc parts aren't dearer or more elusive than any other old classics' and they're on Ebay all the time.
If you wanted it finished quickly then you'd likely end up paying too much, but providing you wait it out and pick up bits as they appear, and just enjoy the rebuild for what it is, then there's no reason to think you'd pay over the odds, unless you want catalogue perfection. To get it complete and a runner wouldn't be hard, especially if you're happy to use wrong year bits etc.
This is surmising you enjoy the greasy rebuilding process, of course; some don't.
"Scrap" indeed. What tosh. It's no worse than my current project, a 37 Empire Star.
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Wouldn't worry about being a bits and pieces bike, they can be good too. My Dad worked at Matchless in Plumstead back in the day. He said most of the workers bikes were made up from all sorts of parts (mostly from Matchless back-door sales).
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Yeah, all I really wanted out of this bike was a nice old Brit bike that I could ride, maybe make it as close to restored as possible. I'm completely comfortable getting "greasy". Hell, I pulled off the aluminum engine covers and other aluminum bits off my '67 Superhawk and hand polished those. That took some time and serious elbow grease. I'm willing to hang out and piece this thing together over time. My priority would be to strip the frame and repair the seat tube section that is missing. Bead blast the whole the thing and powder coat. Then move onto the engine. Have it checked inside. Maybe bore it out a tad, and put some oversized pistons in there. See what the top end looks like. Replace any valve springs, etc. I've never worked on a Brit bike, so I have no experience or knowledge on how the valve train works or what it even looks like, but I imagine it's similar to most of the standard older technology. There's various sheet metal repair that needs to be done (fenders, etc.). Check out the electrical system. Replace the battery. Gas tank looks decent enough inside. Replace clutch and brake cables. Fire this beast up and see what's what. That's all. Not too much to ask for, is it?
Being new to these older bikes, I noticed a little switch lever type thing near the left side hand grip (see attached pic). What is this? It almost looks like an old bicycle bell lever.
Also, what are the extra set of small levers above each handlebar lever? Do they actuate the oil spill or the smoke generator?
Thanks again,
Scott
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That lever is a valve lifter, the correct use of which is an art in itself.
normally the levers fitted above clutch and brake are magneto advance and choke.
Just had another look at the frame which does not have a sidecar lug as far as I can see so that make the front bit of the frame from a 1941 -on G3L with teles not girders.
Can you see how deep the hole you are digging is yet?
As for the idea of rebuilding an M20 from one shagged engine???????? seen the price of M20 tinware?
Matchless G3L stuff is Just as scarce; I have a WD G3L and am glad I hav ehad it for so long; my neighour has an immaculate and genuine WD M20, asking price £45OO, they are becoming scarce, there is not even one on Milweb.
If you really want a wreck to play with for 2k theres loads of crap on ebay to play with.
yes you can get repro parts, then you find there is a lot more you cant get.
As for building bikes out the back door of the Matchless factory, as another ex Matchless factory worker, I reckon someone is having his leg pulled.
and lastly.I repeat that frame is from two different bikes, whats the point of renovating it?
Pulling the covers off a Jap bike to polish them is childs play to this boat anchor you are lumbered with.
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"Pulling the covers off a Jap bike to polish them is childs play to this boat anchor you are lumbered with."
Boat anchor indeed. I just dismantled what was once mantled, it is now broken down into major components. I picked up the motor to move it and the motor feels like it is solid iron. I'll start looking for frames I guess, and see what those are running. I had no idea that the main frame and the rear "sub frame" were not of the same year or same bike. Any idea how much a frame in good working condition might run?
-Scott
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well, ....IF.... I had one and I thought I had a right mug in front of me with wads of cash, very expensive indeed....
so what do you want to rebuild it as? A BSA or a Matchless?
I suggest you spend some time studing the listings on Ebay.
for instance, if you wanted a tank for a G3 as opposed to a G3L, thats the early ones with a tank instrument panel, and instruments, which is never likeley to come up as one piece, that would easily on past form the ones I have bid on and lost, add up to almost a £1000......
I cold flog you an appropriate gearbox for a £100 if you are that keen to part with your cash.... no warrenty of course.
You seem to be under some delusion as to the availiabity of old british parts?
Have you never heard the story of George Washingtons axe?
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This bike rather makes me think of Ogri's mate Malcolm's 'Norumph' built out of the bits left over from everybody else's Tritons. Didn't Ogri say "God's teeth, Malcolm - What's that ?" and the small bird on the fence said "Don't forget the dexion bits". :)
It is possible to build a reasonable WD bike around an engine or indeed a rolling chassis but I'd hesitate to try it without access to UK jumbles and a sufficiently large network of friends and acquaintances who merely have to be convinced that they're sitting on parts that they don't really need.
Are you in the US, Scott ? I can imagine that rigid, girder forked British bikes are fairly unusual there and the lack of alternative sources might make a project more tempting but against that, you'll find local parts supply almost non-existent and you'll need to be very wary of internet purchases.
It's a matter of historical fact that a good number of WD bikes ended up on the Indian sub-continent and there is therefore a small industry devoted to keeping those bikes running. Unfortunately, the quality of those parts is often abysmal and they are now expecting western prices for them.
I have to say that I really don't see this one as a first project unless you have access to a machine shop and intend to make the missing parts yourself.
If you didn't pay too much and the import costs weren't too high then I too would be tempted to recommend identifying the parts properly and putting them on eBay. You should find that the profit goes a good way towards finding a more feasible first-time project.
There are quite a few WDM20s in the US. It seems that several containers full of ex-BAOR machines were imorted by a dealer in the 1970s and many of them have seen little use. If you really want an M20 then keeping your ear to the ground when one of those comes up is probably a better option.
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Sounds like the decompressor lever.
Treat yourself to a copy of the genuine WW2 workshop manual too. You'll be amazed how good they were, and how helpful you'll find it.
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But whats the point of a manual for a WDM20 when he hasn't got one?
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Yebbut- I'll keep that in mind when it comes time to buy parts
RichP- Yeah, I'm in the U.S. I'm sure there's some owners/fan clubs in the states that I might be able to tap into for resources. There's a European bike only dealership/repair shop in my city even. So I might be able to go to them for stuff. Funny thing about girder/Springer-style forks here in the U.S., they're all the rage on choppers and bobbers. Take a look at some U.S. chopper rag sometime and try not to find them on every other bike coming out of custom shops.
Thanks all for your help thusfar. I'll be sitting on the sidelines for a bit, looking at parts on ebay, and trying to formulate an attack plan. This could go one of many ways, either I'll decide on what bike to make it, depending on availability and cost of parts. Or, I'll sell of the bits, as some suggest. If that happens, maybe I'll stick with the WWII Brit bike theme or I might go back to looking at late 50's-60's Brit cafe racers. We shall see....
Cheers!
Scott
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A friend of mine nr Boston just turned down a complete but kit of parts 1948 rigid frame matchless for $800 as too dear, it would have been snapped up in UK for that price these days.
I reckon you should go bck to Iraq and dig aboout in the sand to find the rest.
There must still be dozens's out there somewhere, some of which are not such deep water anchors.
Actually I know where there is a boatload of unused ones for the taking.
Just Google Thistlegorm ;D
and I see you have had not much luck on that other forum :o either, ye of little faith ;D