classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: murdo on June 30, 2013, 09:33:50 AM
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Now that we have established that the remains I have are Royal Enfield Model A (thanks to all your help) I am wondering what engine was used. Was it a Villiers or did R.E. make thier own?
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Royal Enfield made their own.
http://s23.postimg.org/75ux6sf4r/RE_frames.jpg
Quite unlike the Villiers, although not dissimilar in concept, in some respects anyway.
Note the large external flywheel on the rhs, the Lucas generator/points unit, and the pre-unit, presumeably Albion ?, gearbox - described as a '3 speed hand change gearbox', with 4 ratios listed. Beats me how that works !!
Earlier years had a more conventional looking exhaust system, with muffler.
Maybe this one had some sort of performance benefit ?
We can see you have not given up on this beastie.
An advert for an engine may turn one up ?
Or a more complete project, which may be more whats required....
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As R says, it is all RE's own work. No using bought in engines for Royal Enfield but of course being Australia there is a twist to it as your particular Royal Enfield model was rebadged and sold out here as the Cottman Colt.
Cottmans were an active dealership here in Melbourne and for some reason sold the RE Model A rebadged under their own name from the mid-30's until Hitler stopped play.
RE never resumed production of the Model A postwar instead concentrating on the 125cc Flying Flea as their preferred two-stroke model.
There is at least one surviving and well restored Cottman Colt in Victoria that runs quite well although I haven't seen the elderly restorer on it for some time.
So, do you have a Royal Enfield Model A or a Cottman Colt?
Cheers,
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Well now, the thick plottens even more. It has bits the same as the R.E. that Cardan posted that is in S.A., but how can I tell if it is a Cottman or R.E.?? The frame has the number 10094 stamped in the head casting on the left side downtube.Does this give any clue to identity?
I haven't given up on it yet, but it helps if I know what to look for.
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The obvious people to exactly date your frame would be the English Vintage Motor Cycle Club, their website is www.vmcc.net . I'd begin my enquiries there.
As to whether your bike was originally sold as a Royal Enfield or rebadged as a Cottman Colt I'm afraid that is beyond me. I don't know whether Cottmans sold bikes into South Aus or were purely Victorian or perhaps whether your bike was originally sold in Victoria and then ended up in South Aus. Who knows?
I have very limited information on the Colt and it doesn't include frame numbers. It is probably possible to find out the total number of Cottman Colts registered in Victoria through the Victorian Association of Motoring Clubs but again, the records they hold are based on engine numbers with few actual frame numbers recorded. We were very lucky they managed to rescue the records they did when the Victorian Government computerised but the records saved can be very frustrating. It's much like saving the trailer of every movie made without saving the movie. One gets an idea of what it's all about but not enough to satisfy.
Whatever the case, you definitely have a Royal Enfield model A, whether it was rebadged as a Cottman Colt is another matter altogether.
Cheers,
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The Royal Enfield Owners Club will date your frame from its number but they do charge for it £16 I think
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im not sure id waste £16 on this project , are they valuble ?
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Are they valuable ??
Try doing a search for a pic of a Cottman Colt.
All you find are things with 4 legs, and a hay motor...
Which may not actually answer the question.
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Some things with Hay motors are worth a fortune.. check Newmarket out!
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I've shifted too much hay in my lifetime to want to have anything to do with hayburners. :(
I have approached this wanting to find out what it was, but I don't know about spending $16 to go any further. I may go back to western NSW next year and dig around a bit more to see if any more bits come to life.
On finding it was a R.E. I was enthused to go a bit further as my dad had a R.E. 250 (4stroke) from '39 to '44 that he taught my mum to ride on. ;)
Even if I wanted to restore to original it would still be 'Grey Porridge' and not worth much. Better to buy one already running.
Steve.
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Better not to buy any piss fart 2 stroke.
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On finding it was a R.E. I was enthused to go a bit further as my dad had a R.E. 250 (4stroke) from '39 to '44 that he taught my mum to ride on. ;)
What year of RE 250 ?
While 'we' have decided its a Model A 2-stroke, the 1935 Model B 250cc could fit the description on the bits you have - maybe ? Apologies for the lighting...
http://s18.postimg.org/xcn97z461/1935_Model_B.jpg
Enfields made quite a big range of models, and while many bits were model specific, some covered quite a range of models.
Those blade forks were on quite a number of models, even on the big stuff, unless you ordered the Deluxe model and got tubular girder forks...
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not a 2 stroke fan (british ones to slow unless a scott) but I do have some , I have a lot of F/B cruiser @1936 parts if anyones looking , inc forks , they are the pressed steel type .
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Someone gave me a F/B Falcon last year (garage clearance), I tried to sell it for months before I had to almost give it away. It did want a fair bit doing to it TBH but they are just not worth restoring for what you get back... pretty much like Norton Jubilee's :-\
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R, the intake has a long curved alloy piece with brass carb that looks like the photos.
Will have to check with my uncle (AJS & BSA man) about the year of dad's R.E.
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some bikes just make poor financial sence , ive made the same mistake (several times) , alldays allon and a B40 are my biggest mistakes , lost on both , best to sell as projects or spray matt black and ride , this last option is good fun and you don't have to worry about devaluing/falling off etc
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My uncle thinks that dad's R.E. was a '39 model that he bought in Jan/Feb 1940. He is sure it was a ridged frame with tubular girders and the tank was painted grey. He traded his '28 AJS on the Enfield before the shortages of war started. He used to ride the 8 miles to the farm he worked on at the time, and I remember him telling about running it on lighting kerosene and mothballs (naphthalene) to make his monthly petrol ration go further (he got very quick at cleaning spark plugs). In '43 he got a job in town (still not old enough to join army) and had to hide the bike so it would not be comandered be the army.
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Have decided to hang the model A up in shed for the moment until I can go back to where I found the rest and have a better dig around and maybe find some more of it. The other option was to put some more modern Enfield (Indian) bits into it and maybe use a Villiers or Japanese engine. The end result would be a barstard child and probably worth even less than it is now. ;)
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Have been back to the dump where I found the bits with a shovel, and after an afternoon of old tins and bottles have only succeeded in finding the gearbox, a small frame piece, magneto end bit and the rusted mudguards. Have hung the bits up with the rest on the shed wall but don't have enough to be worth trying to restore. :(
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Have been collecting a few bits and have decided to see how far I can get.
My question is about the frame castings joints. How are they braised/welded to the frame tubes and what is the best method to get them apart to replace the rusted tubes?
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Hi Murdo,
They are brazed joints but they were pinned together before being brazed so you need to drill out the pins before trying to disassemble them.
The pins were usually just small nails to keep things together whilst doing the job so easy to drill out. Generally, if you clean the surface with a fine file you can see where the pin was inserted.
Have fun.
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Yes 33d6, fun indeed.
I heated the top frame tube to melt the braze, but what I didn't know was that the top tube was 'double tubed' and fractured around the joint. It came away in my hand once the brass was soft and I had to heat and chisel out the bits left in the head casting. Am going to attempt the seat mount end tomorrow now that I know what to expect.
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Got the seat mount off the tube today. Crafty little buggers had put two pins in the joint. I had drilled out the one I found but the second caused a bit of a struggle.
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I don't think the factory built the 'A' with you in mind 75 years later. Very remiss of them wasn't it. Either that or they did think of you and killed themselves laughing at the song and dance they would cause.
Now is the time to start sourcing the tube you need. It used to be easy enough but many of the old imperial sizes are now hard to find. What sizes will you need? Both O.D and wall thickness.
Just so you know you're not alone I'm currently rebuilding the frame of a 1939 Montgomery Terrier. It gives new meaning to the word 'nasty', but I love it. So much more interesting than just another boring Triumph or BSA.
Cheers,
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Very remiss of them 33d6.
Have purchased some tube locally from Metaland, and I had a piece here for the seat to gearbox piece. Top tube was 1 1/4" x 16ga with doublers inside. I have used 32mm x 2mm with skimming a bit on ends back to 31.75mm to fit castings. The front down tubes were 7/8" x 12ga, and I have used 22mm x 2.5mm. So far so good.
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I googled the Montgomery Terrier, and looks similar to the Enfield.
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Could anybody please tell me why they put the muffler on the left side? Was this to hide the 'dirty' chain or to just make it more difficult to lubricate/adjust?
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Probably to avoid the kick start. Easier to move the exhaust than pay Albion good money for an extended kick start lever. Not that I'm cynical or anything.
Cheers,
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Maybe, but all the four strokes with similar frames (eg Model B) had the kickstart on the right with the muffler. Have seen other brands of small twostrokes with muffler on left too. I have put mine on the right so that I can get to the chain for maintence. Using an Enfield kickstarter it clears the pipe fine.
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Have been doing a bit on this Enfield in between other projects. Is not all original Enfield, but I think will be good enough for a rideable rally bike.
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Nearly done, just waiting on a couple of magneto bits and will be ready for a test ride.
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Nearly finished and running. Have not ridden yet, waiting for some other things to be finished then get back to it. Bit of a change from what I started with.
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What a transformation !
Looking good...
I have something vaguely similar (sans K), might inspire me to get cracking some more.
One question - you started with those blade girder forks, and switched to tubular girders. ?
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R, yes the blades were too rusty to be safe. A shame to have to replace them, but the Indian made tubulars were an easy way to fix many problems in one go. They were an option I believe on the 'deluxe' model with lights.
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Bit of a change from what I started with.
I'd have to agree with that! I assume it cannot be ridden on the road?
Leon
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Bit of a change from what I started with.
I'd have to agree with that! I assume it cannot be ridden on the road?
Leon
Well I plan to when finished, probably on Historic rego.
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Here in South Australia the requirement for historic rego is more-or-less originality and pre-1978 build, and full rego requires the machine to meet the design rules for the build date, so we don't see bikes like this. It's a problem with things like the repro strap-tank Harleys (Timeless I think they were called) - built in the 2000s to a 1910-ish design - as there is no possibility of them taking to the road.
Leon
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If TriBsa, NorVins and TriTons can be registered, why cannot mine? I have yet to look into the finer details of the rego schemes but I don't think it will be a problem.
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Don't the car people have a rule something like that 5 out of the 7 major components have to be original.
Not sure WHICH car people this applies to, but it keeps the hot-rodders out of the veteran and antique clubs/runs.
(and in their own runs)
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The Historic mob are getting together with the RMS and are working on a new (correct me if I'm wrong here) Historic Modified section for all the 'Rat, chops and bobber' type bikes, and I've heard that it will be available in the new year. See what happens.
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I think R is referring to the FIVA (Federation Internationale Vehicle Ancien) passport which requires the major parts of the vehicle to be original. I have on for my 1926 Matchless dating from the only international rally I've ever ridden in.
FIVA was the overarching international body at one time but things keep changing and as I enter very few international rallies I haven't kept up. The UK motorcycle boys got their nose out of joint with FIVA when they decided they needed some international representation and found FIVA had successfully been doing the job for decades and wasn't interested in playing pissing games with them. A few egos were bruised when they found they were last on the field and wanting to go over old ground and fight old battles. We now of course have a range of representative bodies whose major aim appears to be to squabble with each other rather than look after the members interests. Yer pays yer money and takes yer choice. Human nature wins out every time.
Cheers,