classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: George on March 02, 2014, 03:17:54 AM
-
Hi I am looking for any photos of original Series 1 Ambassador motorcycle to attempt to verify my new purchase.
Cheers
George
-
Hi George,
It's simple enough. You don't need a photo.
If it has both a 5E engine and an open frame, that is, open underneath the engine and with engine plates to mount the engine in, then it is 1947 and Series I.
If it has a 5E engine and a cradle frame (possibly with a detachable lower frame section) then it's 1948 and a Series II.
Cheers,
-
The frame has a single pipe under the engine? Wondering how I know the difference between a 5E and 6E engine?
-
Hi George,
A single pipe under the engine sounds like a cradle frame. A cradle frame has a single loop of tube down from the steering head, under the engine and joining up with the saddle tube which is the single tube coming down from saddle.
The 5E engine is easily distinguished from the 6E as it has two exhaust ports, one either side of the cylinder whereas the 6E has a single exhaust port on the front of the cylinder. There are other differences but that is the most obvious.
Cheers,
-
Thank you very much!!!Looks like I have a 6E engine in a single pipe frame does that mean it is a 1949 series iii,not a 1947. I've attached a photo.
Cheers
George
-
The guide to Ambassadors says that tele forks came out for 1950
And if that paint scheme is original style, then yours could be even later ?
http://www.realclassic.co.uk/books/guide_to_ambassador_motorcycles.html
Nice bike...
-
I suggest you tell us the engine and frame numbers George and we'll tell you what you really have because it doesn't look much like a Series III.
I can't really tell a lot from your photo but it doesn't appear to have the oddball 1949 forks either. For that year Ambassador made their own version of the tele fork which was a cross between the new teles and the old girder fork so you had things that looked vaguely like teles but had girder fork link type things working up and down at the fork top. Yours appears to be the later MP (Metal Profiles) forks that Ambassador and many other makes fitted throughout the 50's.
Frankly, I think your bike looks far more like a mid 50's Ambassador Popular than any early Series model.
Nevertheless, as I said above, if you give us the frame and engine numbers there is every chance we can identify it precisely.
Cheers
-
I think the frame number is P115311034, Engine Series 363A, Number 17139.
Thank you again.
-
Hi George,
That all makes it easy. You have a 1954 Ambassador Popular and the engine is the original Villiers 8E unit. The numbers all match perfectly.
Before I explain what all the numbers mean I must emphasise that the British motorcycle year is NOT the calendar year. The motorcycle manufacturing year ran from about September/October so the manufacturers could display next years models at the annual Show so just because your bike is a 1954 model doesn't necessarily mean it was made in 1954. In your case the frame number P115311034 breaks down as follows,
P = Popular, 11 = November, 53 = 1953 and the final 11034 is the factory ID number. I would expect Ambassador started the Popular frame number sequence off at 11000 and yours is the 34th off the line. So there you are, your bike is a 1954 model made in November 1953.
The engine number prefix of 363A is for an 8E, 3 speed unit made by Villiers for Ambassador in the period 1953-55.
Finally, I have to ask, do you know what made the previous owner think he was selling a 1947 model? Except the Series 1 and the Popular have two wheels and a Villiers engine they have absolutely nothing in common with each other. They don't look remotely alike. I'm just curious is all.
Cheers,
-
Thank you again, I am not sure of the previous owner the dealer I purchased from I believe took the word of the prior owner (not helpful). Can you refer me to a resource for what original part looked like, Numbers, Pictures etc. your assistance has been greatly appreciated.
Cheers
-
Places like ebay may turn up a suitable parts list, with some diligent searching,
if the commercial sources don't have any.
e.g.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ambassador-Supreme-225cc-Spare-Parts-List-April-1954-/130986632599
This obviously is the wrong list, but sometimes its useful to also have a later list to know what won't fit.
It must be said the pics of the early Series 1 Ambassador are notably absent out on the 'web.
This question has arisen several times before, and no-one has sourced such a photo. ??
Brochures and advertising pics sometimes appear on ebay, again if the commercial sources don't have any.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1949-Ambassador-Series-Five-197cc-Original-Advert-/281269124827
Amazing what google and ebay searches will turn up, if you are determined enough.
Again, we refer you to THE book on Ambassadors.
Can't beat what others have found out, and put into print...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-Guide-to-Ambassador-Motor-Cycles-new-book-last-copy-remaining-/291099662427
I'm sure others will have more to add to this.
Have fun !
-
Ambassador 1954 Popular
http://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/ambassador/images/Ambassador_1954_Popular.jpg
-
Hi George,
Information is easy.
The English Vintage Motor Cycle Club has a fantastic Library and it is open to non-members. You can easily get photocopies of anything they hold. I've had a quick look and found they list both a 1954 leaflet and sales catalogue which will give you factory information on what your bike should look like. What colours it was painted, what was chrome plated, etc. I didn't look much further than that but they may possibly have a Riders Handbook as well. You can email the librarian, Annice Collett, at library@vmcc.net for further info.
As the bike uses a Villiers engine you will find it more practical to get original Villiers factory info than rely on Ambassador literature. Annice will assist there also. The VMCC holds a massive amount of Villiers literature covering all aspects of anything thing Villiers.
Further to this your Ambassador is fitted with proprietary Metal Profiles (MP) forks and once again, the VMCC library is about the only place you will get info on MP's. I found this when I rebuilt a set of MP's on my mates 1955 Sun Cyclone.
There are various firms selling Villiers spares. They are fairly easy to get hold of. I use Villiers Services www.villiersservices.co.uk and have always got everything I've wanted although sometimes service can be a little slow. There are other Villiers related firms but I've never used them.
For easy engine reference probably the most convenient general manual is The Villiers Engine, author B E Browning and published by Pearson. This was published for many years both before and after your 8E came on the market so make sure you have an edition that deals with the 8E. It is often on eBay but I prefer the ABEBooks site www.abebooks.com where I believe you can get a better quality copy.
Let us know how you get on.
Sorry, last thing. The Guide to Ambassadors book is intended to identify what model you have it isn't intended for maintenance purposes.
-
I found a site www.hulsmannmotor.nl/Villiers_Motornummers.html that id the 6E engine 363A series was built for the Popular?
Not sure
-
Hi George,
Most information on postwar Villiers two strokes is lifted from a very well known and mostly correct book by Roy Bacon. Unfortunately he got the 363A entry wrong and so has everyone who has blindly copied him. We'll just have to include the Hulsmann info in this latter category.
Firstly, by the time your Popular was made the 6E was no longer made. Secondly, once you get to know your various Villiers engines you will see your Popular has an 8E and not a 6E. Be grateful you have the later 8E. It is a better engine and spares are easier to come by.
Keep checking, you'll see I'm right and your engine is an 8E.
Cheers,
-
thank you it is becoming clearer every day
Cheers
-
Now happy I have a 1954 Ambassador "Popular" Would appreciate any details/photo's/info on what she might have looked like originally.
Cheers
George
-
Ambassador 1954 Popular
http://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/ambassador/images/Ambassador_1954_Popular.jpg
-
Hi George,
I suggest you go back and read my reply of March 11th.The VMCC Library is your major source of Ambassador information. It is open to non-members so that isn't a problem. You have to remember that 1954 was a long time ago and little cottage industry businesses like Ambassador didn't provide the same degree of information that is expected today. You have to do a bit of digging for yourself. R has been helpful and given you about the only picture of a 54 Popular available on the net. It is the same one as in the 'Guide to Ambassador Motorcycles'. You need to get copies of the original material held by the VMCC for anything further. Basically the 'Guide to Ambassador Motorcycles' provides helpful information to identify all the Ambassadors made over the years. It is NOT an owners manual.
I think you have the basis of a light bike that can be very reliable, cheap to run and insure, much more fun than you expect and if you come across another owner he will be delighted to meet you.
Cheers,
-
Thanks 33d6, I have contacted the library and they are forwarding some info for me they have been very helpful.
Cheers
Darren
-
The first bike I ever rode was a 125 Ambassador converted for trials in 1953 and only sold in 1990 when I left UK. I´ve found a photo of me on it.
But it´s on the same scan as father on a 305 honda.
-
Oh dear. I thought I was alone in the world, so it's good to see someone else whose tongue comes out when concentrating hard! Great photo.
Leon
-
Thanks Cardan, I see you know how to separate and resize prints too, I can`t get the hang of these computers but I gas welded something the other day.
-
Hello George and everybody else
I have been very interested to read this thread about your machine, which as 33d6 has correctly advised you, is a 1954 Ambassador Popular. The Ambassador factory model year, in common with quite a few other manufacturers, ran from September to September and therefore although your bike was manufactured in November 1953, it is considered to be a 1954 machine.
I can advise you that according to the Ambassador Machine Register, yours is one of only three '54 Populars currently known to survive (as of August 2014), with records being held for a further four '54 Populars, but these are classed as 'unverified' machines in that they may no longer exist. The 1954 and 1955 Populars are quite easy to recognise as they are the only 'hard-tailed' Ambassadors where the frame tubes curve around at the rear axle. All the other Ambassadors, which didn't utilise rear suspension, had their frame tubes ending on a point by the rear axle.
Just for the record I have attached a photo of a 1947 Series I Ambassador and as already been mentioned by others on this thread, you can see the visual differences between yours and this machine, with its Villiers 5E engine. Currently there are no known surviving Series I's. At this post-war period, exports were considered essential and it is thought that most of the Series I's ended up overseas, so it is not impossible that one may turn up one day….
I feel that while 33d6 has provided a great deal of accurate and correct factual information, just for the record (and with the greatest of respect) I would just like to correct a couple of minor mistakes:
It was mentioned above that "I would expect Ambassador started the Popular frame number sequence off at 11000 and yours is the 34th off the line". This is not the case. The latter part of the Ambassador frame numbers (11034 in your case George) was merely a sequential production number that was used across all models in the range and ran through all years. From the information that I hold, I can tell you that Ambassador used at least three frame numbering systems prior to the company's sale to DMW, with the main one being used from 1950 until 1960 and began at around about the number 2000 and ended at around 20000. In 1960 it began again. Pre-1950 Ambassadors used an entirely different frame numbering system.
I would also like to mention that as the VMCC Ambassador marque specialist and with the greatest of respect to the team in Allen House, when it comes to Ambassador motor cycles, I hold far more information on the marque than is held at headquarters. I should stress though that I work very closely with and am a long-standing member of the VMCC.
I think I’ve rambled on (bored you all to tears!) for long enough now, but I would just like to mention the fabulous photo posted by wink. The machine in the photo is either a 1951 or 1952 Ambassador Embassy (with a 197cc Villiers 6E engine) and has been modified a little, no doubt to cope with a bit of field use, but what a great picture. Thank you for sharing it.
If I can assist anybody with any Ambassador enquiries, please contact me on ambassadorguide@gmail.com
Michael Easton
Co-author of "A Guide to Ambassador Motor Cycles"
-
Hello George
Forgot to mention, if you email me directly I'll send you some information through, specific to your '54 Popular.
Cheers
Michael
-
very nice looking machine
-
Thanks 64Hip, I have Emailed you look forward to hearing from you :D
George