classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => European and Other Bikes => Topic started by: Iano on December 09, 2023, 10:56:33 AM
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Hi All. I see there has been loads of conversations on this subject so apologies. I have acquired a barn find flat tank which I need a bit of help finding out info on,
But will start with the gearbox. It is an Albion two speed with a clutch, kickstart and is pully drive, it is stamped SC88. does anyone know when Albion started producing
this type and what was it rated to power wise.
Thanks'
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Blimey, that was one big photo.
I had to go next door to see the far end of it.. ;)
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don't know whet happened there. was fine on my computer and when i uploaded it it was a tad big. everyone can spot the dodgy stuff around the workshop
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Albion gearboxes can be a minefield. As gearboxes they are fine but pinning exactly what you have can drive you batty.
I think (note, think) you have an S series box from the early twenties that was used in lightweights up to about 300cc. Mostly two strokes but also four strokes.
As Albion would supply the same box with top mount, bottom mount and pivot mount form plus with a variety of mainshaft lengths and sprocket sizes having the same box as in your mates bike doesn’t mean they are interchangeable.
Finally, what Albion rated their box at and what bike manufacturers did with them bear little relationship.
What make is the bike? What engine does it have? More info please.
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Thank you
The bike is an Atania. It came from an estate sale in France with no engine (the engine was seen around the estate but not located yet) I have enclosed some photo's
I have reached out to about a dozen people trying to find any information on this bike but no one had heard of it. One gentleman was researching it and found one reference
about someone having a frame about 20 years ago. but that's it. I have also attached a photo of the carb slide in case its enough for you to recognise the make and possible
engine size it might of fitted on. I would say it's between 1917 to 1925 The last two digits on the frame number are 17 and the old number plate ends 18 not sure if this albion was about then
the frame is well made and of a good gauge steel, so quite robust
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photo
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having trouble loading any photos so loaded separately
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The Albion gearbox goes back to before the First World War. They made a range of two speed only boxes up to 1925 when they introduced their first three speed boxes for the 1926 season.
I’ve ploughed through my copy of the VMCC Register and found that most of the S series two speeders range around the early 20’s.They all appear to be chain-cum-belt like yours. Generally at this time Albion numbered their boxes in an alpha/numeric style in lots of 1000, so the S box would be numbered S 001 to S 999. After 999 they start again with SA 001 to SA 999, then SB 001 to SB 999 and so on. From this you can deduce where your box comes in the lineup and that a box stamped SJ 688 should be broadly the same as your SC88 although made much later.
By1925 when they introduced their first three speeder they also advised their top of the line two speeders similar to yours came in two versions, one for up to 200cc engines and t’other up to 250cc. Albion two speeders come in many guises. Not simple.
Tha Atania brand is a mystery to me but appears to be the usual confection of proprietary products. What make are the forks?
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That's great information. could not see any identification mark on the folks (would there be a usual place they where stamped) very similar to a lot of makes. Totally agree that its made up of
proprietary parts (presume the frame made in house) or suppose the hole lot could have been made under licence. did you recognise the carb slide and top. Atania where made in Lorient Brittany but no other information, been looking at loads of French newspapers of the period for adverts but no luck, frame is quite simular to early Triumphs model N
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Yes presumably we're some around 1924-25? By 1926-27 even lightweights were doing away with belt drive and getting a front brake.
Albion boxes of all sorts were advertised in the French magazines of the day, for example in La Revue Motorcycliste et Automobile in August 1925 below, and were used in many French bikes.
Atania is a new one on me. Must have been a very small manufacturer, presumably M. Jean Barbet of Lorient (in the Morbihan district in Bretagne (Brittany), France? Barbet registered the name Atania for his bicycles and bicycle parts in October 1921 - no mention of motorcycles so presumably they came along a year or two later.
I have quite a few books on French motorcycles, but Atania is not mentioned in any of them. Atania was not exhibited at the annual shows in Paris in late 1924 (unsurprisingly), nor did it appear in a comprehensive list of French manufacturers for 1925 in La Revue 10 November 1924.
Based on my experience with small Australian makes, I'd guess that Barbet [edit: not Bardet] either built the bikes from available parts, as suggested by 33d6, or put his bicycle head badge on a machine made for him by someone else.
Speaking of the head badge, I wonder if it was specially made for Atania? Hard to see in the photo, but it looks like it might be a generic badge, onto which you stamped your own brand - in this case CYCLES ATANIA. Are the radial marks to help you line up your letters in a nice arc?
Tell us what you know!
Cheers
Leon
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Woops, overlapped.
I wonder if the carb top is Longuemare, which (with AMAC) was one of the common ones on French lightweights in the 1920s.
Leon
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Barbet registered the name Atania for his bicycles and bicycle parts in October 1921
In fact he lodged the application for registration in March 1921.
Leon
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One gentleman was researching it and found one reference
about someone having a frame about 20 years ago. but that's it.
Is this the reference? https://www.lva-moto.fr/forum/topic-2608-atania-page-1.html Unfortunately the links to photos no longer work.
The original poster was in Bretagne Sud - perhaps close to Lorient - and gave this info:
Je possède depuis plusieurs années une moto dont je n'ai que le cadre avec l'immatriculation. J'ai fait des recherches en préfecture et voici le résultat:
marque: ATANIA
Puiss.: 2CV
Type: MI 1800
N°: 1/08
mise en circulation: 12/02/1927
So he had only the frame and rego number - presumably this is the bike you have now?
Looking again at the head badge, I notice that the rivets that hold it on are very rough indeed. Made of steel too - usually they would be plated brass. Until you establish definitively that Barbet made a motorcycle or two, I reckon you should leave open the possibility that someone (Barbet?) put an Atania bicycle head badge on an older motorcycle and registered it as an Atania?? It's going to be tricky to research: I think you'll need to go to the local newspaper.
Good luck!
Leon
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Thank you Leon. it sounds very much like this was the forum. I did not buy this bike direct but was told buy the person who did
that he had a chat with the grandson of the estate owner who remembers the bike in one piece and was sure he could remember seeing the lost engine
and tank somewhere about. It is a shame the photos attached to that original post where not available, but I have contacted the web host to see if they still are.
Not sure if the "No" in the reg details referrers to frame number or registration number if so they are both different. Most certainly possible that the badge is all Atania made
but haven't seen any identical bikes by other makes, there is a lot similar from 1918-1923 so recon its not far off 1920/21 date wise. Going by 33d6 very useful information the gearbox
appears to be around 1921 (if I worked it out right)
Yes the rivets on the name tag are steel and rusted and looking at the nearside stud it looks to be at a bit of a tangent, which could indicate that it was put on with the front folks
already in place and not able to hammer square on (could be just how it corroded though) been wading through French news paper archives and might get lucky).
I will check out the carb.
Interesting that Barbet applied for registration in March 21 (bike being built before) but registering the company some 7 months later (maybe tax related)
That's a great bit of research thank you.
I have given the bike a light restoration just stabilising surface rust and treating rebuilt the clutch and front suspension just have the handle bars and levers to do will post a pic
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I wonder if the towers on the headbadge could be https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_de_la_D%C3%A9couverte in Lorient.
Leon
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They most certainly could (would be quite a coincidence if not related)
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Hi Cardan I have managed to get hold of the old photos from the 2007 post and have attached, a different model Atania would you say it was before or after mine (looks before to me)
I have also attached a photo of mine
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thanks 33d6 I can see a couple of letters on the front forks "AG" maybe with an S in front of that
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Brilliant. Who'd have thought that there could be two such similar sets of Atania remains! Looks like this bike is still out there somewhere - maybe the current owner has sorted out the history?
Interesting that this one has the double-spring fork, which in the press of the day seems to be more common than the single-spring variety. I turned the pages on a large pile of 1923-1926 French magazines and noticed things that looked like this one - with the double-spring fork and loop frame - but passed them by! Dé Dé from memory, but I will have to check.
Good puzzle.
Leon
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Yes, plenty to compare here... http://zhumoriste.over-blog.com/article-de-de-et-le-mystere-des-moteurs-duten-113737594.html
Leon
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De-De doesn’t have an Albion gearbox. That is the lightest Sturmey Archer three speeder. Again, mechanically okay but remarkably wide ratios with such a low bottom gear you could tow an army tank with it.
Very typical of its day.
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Yes there are a lot of "typical" French lightweights - if we were talking a UK/Australian thing we'd probably have lots of sage comments about the componentry, build etc! I think a French expert is required.
Here's another with similarities to the Atania: the Claude Delage.
Re dates: The loop frame Atania was registered in Feb 1927 - I'd assume it was a new bike then, say 1926 build. I don't think the other survivor could be any later than that, so my guess would be 1924-26. Nothing on the bike looks very 1920.
Cheers
Leon
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De-De doesn’t have an Albion gearbox.
Well that one doesn't, it's probably the 3 speeder. Maybe the 2-speeder (which had a visibly shorter gear lever) was Albion. [Edit: should have read the article more closely - seems the 2-speeder was a Staub.] There was also a direct drive version, and four strokes, and ... all this in one year (1926) from a make most of us have never heard of!
Interesting to speculate what engine the Atania might have used. One of the big French houses advertised both Albion boxes and Villiers engines, but it seems that in the mid 1920s there were not too many French makers using the Villiers. Lots of unusual (to us) French-made two-stroke engines: for example the engine in the Claude Delage is a 175cc Lescanne, with the magneto driven off the end of the crank, like Union in the UK.
I'm a bit out of my depth...
Cheers
Leon
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An advert for the AD (A Delaune) fork from June 1925. "1 or 2 springs", and various sizes. This is the straight-front-tube style like on the Claude Delage, but I guess they could have made the version on the Atania and the Dé Dé. Munro-Saxon (think Saxon fork in the UK) and AD were the two consistent advertisers of forks in the mid 1920s.
Leon
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Have seen a lot of similar front forks but none exactly the same
https://www.carandclassic.com/car/C1625072#&gid=1&pid=11
https://www.mediastorehouse.com/national-motor-museum/motorcycles/1914-royal-enfield-5764597.html
I am trying to contact the owner of the other Atania. Reading his old posts he definitely knows his French bikes so trying to find out if he found any more info.
my bike had a decompression cable but not sure if they where ever used on 4 strokes (I didn't think so)
Couple of photos for my forks can just make out SAG
It's hard to think that there is still makes of bikes out there that no one has heard of be fantastic to get this back to original
My carb slide has a number "2" on it but nothing else
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could read S&AG
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The DD front end looks very similar (closest I've seen)
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do you know what engine (engines) where used in the DD. my frame does not appear to have ever had a separate oil tank fitted behind the seat as the DD has
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my throttle lever is by Bowden France the seat is missing it's brass name plate
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The DD front end looks very similar (closest I've seen)
Yes, I assume the fork is French, or at least continental. "S&AG" rings no bells for me, but I know little about French/continental fork makers. "AG" is (roughly) "Pty Ltd" in German, and often found on German (or Swiss) products. "SGDG" is another commonly seen stamping, relating to patents. I'd actually expected the fork to be AD.
The Dé Dé engines are discussed in the article I posted a link to: Moussard-Madoz (often called just Moussard) and Duten. Try Google translate if your French is a bit dodgy.
The "Bowden France" lever is interesting. Lots of British manufacturers were busy in France in the 1920s, and some like Bowden obviously developed "local" versions of their products. The AMAC brand finished up in the UK c1930 when AMAL was formed, but it continued on from a French base right through the 1930s.
No clear photos of the saddle, but Brooks had a patent protecting the supporting rod to the saddle running through the centre of the spring. Very commonly Brooks saddles have another spring inside, and concentric with, the main spring. If the saddle is Broooks, the Brooks name will be stamped on the saddle clamp, and "10-12 Stone" will be stamped on the front part of the flat steel seat rails. If it's not Brooks, it's a Brooks copy.
All 4 strokes in the 1920s had a cable-operated valve lifter.
Not sure what the object on the saddle post of the Dé Dé and the Claude Delage is, but it might be an auxiliary oil tank. These were sometimes fitted inside the petrol tanks of British bikes, and a measuring cup was used to move the appropriate amount of oil from the oil tank into the petrol tank when filling with fuel, there being no "premix" on offer.
"Zhumoriste" (aka "Bourdache") has written several books about French motorcycles, including one about French motorcycles of the early 1920s) and may be a good person to ask re the Atania. Unfortunately his long-running blog has been disassembled into remnants (like the Dé Dé article) but he now writes at http://zhumoriste.eklablog.com/ and can probably be contacted there.
Good luck,
Leon
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Thank you very much Leon.
You are a wealth of information. most informative, I will check out your links and post any further information I obtain.
I have contacted a few more people in France and waiting for replies.
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I had a bit of a look on the bnf site https://gallica.bnf.fr/accueil/en/content/accueil-en
Pretty lean pickings on Atania, M. Barbet and Lorient, but I did find out:
M. Jean Barbet registered the name Atania of use on his bicycles and bicycle parts on March 8, 1921. See higher up in the thread. Of course we was likely in business, and maybe even building Atania bicycles, before this. No mention of motorcycles.
In April 1923, tyre maker Hutchinson listed Atania as one of the makers of "bicycles, motocyclettes, and motor cycles" who used their tyres. I don't think you can read into this anything about whether or not Atania made motorcycles at the time.
On July 22, 1926, M. Barber registered the name Regulus to use on "bicycles, motocyclettes (lightweight motorcycles), and accessories. This doesn't necessarily mean he stopped using the name Atania, but he may have. Clearly he was either making, or wanted to make, motocyclettes.
In June 1928, M. Barbet passed his "cycles et motos" business on to M. Allano. The address was given as "1 pl. Morbihan" in Lorient, but I can't find this on a modern map. Lots of redevelopment in Lorient so it may have been built over.
And that's it! Best hope is finding adverts in the local newspaper.
Cheers
Leon
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Thanks Leon
My bike was registered Morbihan LORIENT towards the end of the 1931 beginning of 1932 this would have been a later registration not the first
There was two pairs of holes in the front mud guard (different size number plates new one issued each registration)
I have contacted the vehicle departmental archives of Morbihan for more information. This archive was set up in in 1932 and only runs between 1928 - 1950
not sure about any vehicles on the road from before this date (wonder if older vehicle's where all just registered as 1927 which would account for the other Atainia
being registered 1927)
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(wonder if older vehicle's where all just registered as 1927 which would account for the other Atainia
being registered 1927)
No, I don't think so. "mise en circulation: 12/02/1927" translates to "registered 12/02/1927". i.e. the date the other Atania was registered.
It would be fun to locate 1, Pl. Morbihan and find a photo of what was there c1925.
Note that Morbihan is the name of the "Department" (administrative region) where Lorient is located, and also the name of the Place in Lorient where M. Barbet's cycle shop was located.
Let us know what you find out.
Leon
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thank you Leon
Spent all day yesterday looking through newspapers 1922 / 24 / 26 a few cycle adverts none for Atania I have also been looking through photo archives
but cant find anything there. I am waiting for more information details.
The carb is a Zenith suitable for a 2/ or 2 1/2 cv or maybe up to 247cc